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novacain
09-01-2003, 12:18 AM
Just read some news on who is sending US jobs offshore.

Two big players.
Microsoft plans to shed at least 2,400 jobs as it expands its Bangalore Support center.

"Microsoft Senior Vice President Brian Valentine gave a presentation urging managers to begin outsourcing software-development projects to contractors in India for "quality work at 50 to 60 percent of the cost.'' " SiliconValley.com

"In our business, we're always evaluating different strategies to improve customer support,"

Of course its about quality, not saving 50 -60%.

Who pays the 2,400 ex MS workers unemployment benifits?
Does your job depend on them spending money in your local shops?
Will US taxes rise because less people are paying tax and MS now earns the income offshore (so paying less tax)?


Of course no political party would move US jobs offshore and cost US companies and workers jobs, not if it was facing an election.
It wouldn't hire a firm called HCL eServe in India.

Well not if it thought you would find out........

"THE REPUBLICAN PARTY is using call centres in Gurgaon and Noida in India to raise funds for itself and for its chieftain, George W. Bush."

Well its not the first time US politicians have sent their dollars overseas.

"The Republican contract comes on the heels of a successful anti-abortion campaign run by HCL eServe for a US politician. "


Well, its not like they need your vote to stay in office...........

adrianxw
09-01-2003, 01:46 AM
I'm not totally sure this is still the case, but certainly, until recently the Danish Overseas Development Agency, (DANIDA), would pay part of the expense of setting up business in third world/developing countries.

Several firms obviously jumped at the chance to fire their Danish workers, hire cheap foreign premises/staff and take a handout from the taxpayer at the same time.

At the same time, the government "fast-tracks" immigrants for certain sectors, IT being one. Problem with that is it takes a while to get everything set up, by the time it is setup, the recession has bitten and we don't need vast numbers of fast tracked immigrants, but the process is in place now and takes a while to stop. (Another fast track area is health - frankly I find removing primary health care workers from third world/developing lands morally wrong - who is supposed to look after the locals?).

These things may be a good thing in boom times, but when your domestic unemployment rate is rising sharply, there are mány that would question this.

vasanth
09-01-2003, 08:36 AM
Adrianxw i agree with your point on health workers... but what when there are excess of them... India churns out thousands of Doctors every year... so it is such a condition here that most doctors have to work for a mere Rs 3000 per month around 60$ due to excessive availability of qualified doctors... after studying hard for almost 10 years to get a degree in medicine.. So most of them tend to look for other opportunities... i think all this is related to over population...

confuted
09-01-2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by vasanth
Adrianxw i agree with your point on health workers... but what when there are excess of them... India churns out thousands of Doctors every year... so it is such a condition here that most doctors have to work for a mere Rs 3000 per month around 60$ due to excessive availability of qualified doctors... after studying hard for almost 10 years to get a degree in medicine.. So most of them tend to look for other opportunities... i think all this is related to over population...
I'm not trying to offend you or make fun of your country or anything, but aren't there quite a few health problems over there in India? Parasites and such in the water or food? Do the doctors not know how to solve it, don't have the money/capabilities to solve it, or is there something else? Aaaannnd... 1000 new doctors a year for over a billion people... that doesn't seem like ENOUGH to me. If you figure the average doctor practices for 30 years, and that 1000 new doctors are produced a year, you still have over 33 thousand people for every doctor.... I dunno, just my thoughts.

edit: well, I guess you said thousands, but 2000 or 3000 doctors wouldn't change my math a whole lot. There still don't seem to be enough.

Carlos
09-01-2003, 09:36 AM
It's all about the money - it doesn't matter from which side are you looking at this problem.

itld
09-01-2003, 08:46 PM
howdy,
Sounds like a good way to deflate these programmers egos to me. When they were pulling down obscene salaries living in the lap of luxury we sure didn't see any one of them complaining about the RNC or the DNC but now they have priced themselfs out of work they want us to feel sorry for them? I think not!

M.R.

novacain
09-01-2003, 09:55 PM
>>have priced themselfs out of work they want us to feel sorry for them? I think not!

I ask all you out there what is the real problem?
These few over paid workers OR the managers who are paid an average 128 times the workers salary?

Tell me who these managers are going to 'manage' when all the workers are offshore?
Where did these over paid programmers spend their cash? (compared to the offshore workers)



Its not just programmers. Its mainly telemarketers and support. Although R&D is also moving.

Fair enough, but a free world labour market requires a free world trade market.

Corporations have ensured we do not have this. They have markets with high prices and protections for their goods, made with low safety, low environmental protections and labour costs.

The Bush government has made the US market the most protected in the world. (eg 30% on steel imports, did that help your bussiness itld? It cost 25% of my co-workers thier jobs)

We won't mention how he has ensured the US becomes one of the most polluted countries with his changes to how power plants can be upgraded (so they do not have to reduce emissions as they were required).


I'm all for programmers in India ect getting work. I just think that the corporations can't have it both ways.

Its time as consumers we harnessed OUR influence (stop buying their products) and forced them to be socially responsible.

Indian_fan
09-01-2003, 10:13 PM
Ah ! and now cprog too. This happened to be the only forum among the ones that I visit that had stayed away from this topic.

Soon posts will follow bashing India, as has been the case with other forums. :( Oh well !

itld
09-01-2003, 10:26 PM
howdy,

The Bush government has made the US market the most protected in the world. (eg 30% on steel imports, did that help your bussiness itld? It cost 25% of my co-workers thier jobs)
You know it has hurt us, our prices for steel have gone from 27 cents to 37 cents a pound and will probabaly continue to rise.

Its time as consumers we harnessed OUR influence (stop buying their products) and forced them to be socially responsible.
Agreed but is this a political problem or is this a bussiness problem.

M.R.

rick barclay
09-01-2003, 10:43 PM
Money talks. Bull$$$$ walks the unemployment line.

vasanth
09-01-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by confuted
I'm not trying to offend you or make fun of your country or anything, but aren't there quite a few health problems over there in India? Parasites and such in the water or food? Do the doctors not know how to solve it, don't have the money/capabilities to solve it, or is there something else? Aaaannnd... 1000 new doctors a year for over a billion people... that doesn't seem like ENOUGH to me. If you figure the average doctor practices for 30 years, and that 1000 new doctors are produced a year, you still have over 33 thousand people for every doctor.... I dunno, just my thoughts.

edit: well, I guess you said thousands, but 2000 or 3000 doctors wouldn't change my math a whole lot. There still don't seem to be enough.

i meant thousands.. Every year around 80000 doctors graduate...

And i dont know why a big cry is made for oursourcing.. All american Multinationals sell their products here..(because of the huge consumer base here ) starting from Coke, Pepse etc etc You name it they are here.. When they make money from selling products to us why shouldnt we be hired by them.. It should be a fair deal....

vasanth
09-01-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by itld
howdy,

You know it has hurt us, our prices for steel have gone from 27 cents to 37 cents a pound and will probabaly continue to rise.

Agreed but is this a political problem or is this a bussiness problem.

M.R.

i agree with this point.. Indian is one of the country being affected by this.. The US has negotiated many trade policies with us where American multinationals get free access to our market with little restrictions.. But India being one of the worlds largest producer of steel is not able to export it to the US unlike being done a few years ago due to import duties....

novacain
09-02-2003, 01:30 AM
>>Soon posts will follow bashing India, as has been the case with other forums.

That is not why I started this.

I'd rather bash the corporations.

>>The US has negotiated many trade policies with us where American multinationals get free access to our market with little restrictions.. But India being one of the worlds largest producer of steel is not able to export it to the US<<

Exactly my point.

We are supposed to open up our markets so the corporations can access the cheap labour. Not complain when they shift your job offshore or change the rules to protect themselves.

AND keep buying their products even though we have less income and they have not passed on the savings due to their reduced costs.

>>Money talks. Bull$$$$ walks the unemployment line.<<

So if you are poor your opinions, needs and wants are less important or les valid than if you were rich, is that what you are saying Rick?

And if Nestle moved your job offshore Rick?

Don't start me on Nestle's Infant Formular or on their flooding the market with cheap Robusta coffee beans or not passing on the 60%+ drop in coffee prices to consumers.

Have you seen first hand these places Rick?
Seen how others have to live so you can live the American dream?
No, didn't think so.

>>All american Multinationals sell their products here..

When I first went to India there were no imported products allowed (Ghandi's idea).
There was only one type of car (the Emperial?) In six weeks I only saw one imported luxury car.
Prahaps its becomming time to return to that idea.

>> Agreed but is this a political problem or is this a bussiness problem.

It is a bussiness ETHICS problem. That is compounded by the fact the corporations can buy politicians and have the finacial power to ruin a country that refuses to co-operate.

Indian_fan
09-02-2003, 02:22 AM
This thing will remain a big hit with the corporate houses in the US as long as the dollar remains the strongest currency in the world. The moment the dollar devalues, software imports to the US would no longer be ecomically viable. So, to curb outsourcing, one solution would be to devalue the dollar. But doing so would seriously undermine the US as the strongest economy in the world (especially with the Euro fighting it out neck to neck. To add on top, the Chinese govt refuses to let the Yuan be determined by market forces). There is a catch over here which will always be in the back of the mind in the US treasury benches ... I was just thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong.

adrianxw
09-02-2003, 03:35 AM
Vasanth:

>>>
so it is such a condition here that most doctors have to work for a mere Rs 3000 per month around 60$ due to excessive availability of qualified doctors.
<<<

This is simply market forces. If it has been seen to be a good idea to train for medicine, people will do so, when they see out of work, poorly made medical staff, then they will switch to other disciplines for their education. Same things happen with all subjects.

Is happening with the IT market now, there are a glut of university places for IT courses, but students are wising up to the fact they may not ba able to get a job afterwards, so are turning to other engineering or mathematical disciplines - less specific stuff.

>>> Money talks. Bull$$$$ walks the unemployment line.

How much does the US government pay to subsidise US firms exporting US jobs?

adrianxw
09-03-2003, 02:19 PM
Scandinavian Airlines fired their 200 ticket invoicing staff today, opening their new invoicing centre in Bombay.

Fountain
09-03-2003, 03:27 PM
I think I recall BT outsourcing their directory enqiuries service to India.

Imagine that!

Asking somebody in India who will not even know any city names etc.

Still, all the money comes back anyhow, as India just ordered another 45 Hawk trainer jets today-worth £1bill. Small world.

adrianxw
09-04-2003, 01:07 AM
I saw UK directory enquiries had been privatised. There was a piece in Politiken, (daily paper), about it giving costs, and, (the point of the article), demonstrating how hard it is now to work out the best option, per call/per number/per minute/fixed prices charging, one number/two numbers/unlimited numbers per call etc. etc.

The article finished with a note that the best deal they could find for UK directory enquiries was offered by a call centre in South Africa.

novacain
09-04-2003, 02:52 AM
>>I saw UK directory enquiries had been privatised.

Here Telstra has a free directory enquiries number. They just don't list it anywhere.

They do list the one that costs.........


I just saw an ad from a well known UK IT firm. Looks like they are outsourcing here.

Seems a new study has found we work the longest hours in the world for low pay.

"When given a choice between working harder or working smarter, it seems we'll choose the former every time. "

http://www.crikey.com.au/business/2003/08/27-0005.html

"To put that last figure into perspective, the Dutch are doing 14 weeks less work than us a year for the same income - 14 weeks! "

Sebastiani
09-04-2003, 10:08 PM
I think it is very sad that corporations are doing this sort of thing. Our economy is very bad, and these are the sorts of 'solutions' they often resort to compensate for the fact. Trade is one thing, but employment is quite another. The line has been crossed, though, and the free-for-all is already in motion - what's to stop it now? You know, my grandfather worked for a single company for almost 50 years. That just doesn't happen anymore!