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iain
08-15-2003, 06:05 AM
it appears that microsoft ripped off the University of California and a small US computing company's code to implement their IE plug-in system

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3143591.stm

RoD
08-15-2003, 08:22 AM
::points and laughs at microsoft::

Linux is cool

Shogun
08-15-2003, 09:44 AM
Not the first time they've done stuff like that. One of the reasons I dislike them so much.

Thantos
08-15-2003, 10:05 AM
Hmm $500 million fine, but how much did they make off what they stole? Most likely it was still a good move when it comes to money.

Dissata
08-15-2003, 10:06 AM
seems like a load of bull$$$$ to me. why would you wait 6 yrs. to sue? and what exactly were the infringements the article didn't go into much detail.

Brian
08-15-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Dissata
seems like a load of bull$$$$ to me. why would you wait 6 yrs. to sue? and what exactly were the infringements the article didn't go into much detail.

that way you can make more money, because microsoft has stolen more money from you. Tell me you wouldn't do it that way.

It's called karma, Microsoft sucks.

BMJ
08-15-2003, 10:39 AM
OMG Microsoft rips off patented ideas and code??

WTF my world.... nooo!! My idol!!! Billy how could you!?

confuted
08-15-2003, 11:16 AM
To Microsoft:

hahaha pwned.

joshdick
08-15-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by RoD
::points and laughs at microsoft::

Linux is cool

Ditto.

vasanth
08-15-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by joshdick
Ditto.

there's a law suit claiming Linux borowed some code from some Unix systems :D

mart_man00
08-15-2003, 12:59 PM
there's a law suit claiming Linux borowed some code from some Unix systems
That one is funnier.

Im glad RedHat and IBM are getting into to it. AIX all the way!

RoD
08-15-2003, 01:01 PM
>>there's a law suit claiming Linux borowed some code from some Unix systems

Code which has yet to be shown, that lawsuit is crap.

spoon_
08-15-2003, 04:13 PM
You all seem to forget where you would be without Microsoft's Windows & their other products.

The business world wouldn't be where it is now without Windows. Office workers would be less productive having to deal with the small idiosyncracies of Linux.

You probably wouldn't be playing half of the games you play now.

Windows is good $$$$, and you all know it. I've been runing Windows XP Pro for a year now. Never reformatted, never had one problem. You know why? Because I take care of my computer (updates, anti-virus, etc).

Right about now, you probably think I'm some Windows junkie. Wrong. I have a Redhat machine at home and at work. So I probably deal with Linux more than most of you. I don't hate it, nor do I love it. Windows is there for its reason along with its strengths and weaknesses, and so is Linux.

I hope this thread is closed soon = )

Peace.

Fountain
08-15-2003, 04:34 PM
I hope this thread is closed soon = )


Wouldnt bank on it m8, I hope so though too.

As Brian said they waited longer to make more cash-a good business move. Well, except for all the people who lost jobs etc due to the 'infringement', and due to the long time in claiming.

Anyhow, it was NOWHERE near as astute a move as what MS did. 99.6% of home OS market,and I think I read 66% of browsing software (www.computeractive.co.uk). Now that was smart.

Brian
08-15-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by spoon_
You all seem to forget where you would be without Microsoft's Windows & their other products.

The business world wouldn't be where it is now without Windows. Office workers would be less productive having to deal with the small idiosyncracies of Linux.


It has been suggested on Bugtraq that the power outage on America's Eastern Seaboard was caused by Windows boxes on the power grid affected by the MS Blaster worm.



It is ridiculous to accept that a lightning strike could knock
out the grid, or the transmission system is over stressed. There
are many redundant fault, limit and Voltage-Surge Protection
safeguards and related instrumentation and switchgear installed
at the distribution centers and sub stations along the Power
Grid that would have tripped to prevent or otherwise divert such
a major outage.

I believe that the outage was caused by the MSblaster, or its
mutation, which was besieged upon the respective vulnerability
in certain control and monitoring systems (SCADA and otherwise)
running MS 2000 or XP, located different points along the Grid.
Some of these systems are accessible via the Internet, while
others are accessible by POTS dialup, or private Frame relay and
dedicated connectivity.

Being an old PLC automation and control hack let me say that
there is a very good plausibility that the recent East Coast
power outage was due to an attack by an MBlaster variant on the
SCADA system at the power plant master terminal, or more likely
at several of the remote terminal units "RTU". SCADA runs under
Win2000 / XP and the telemetry to the RTU is accessible via the
Internet.

>From what I recall SCADA based monitoring and control systems
were installed at many water / sewer processing, gas and oil
processing, and hydro-electric plants.

I also believe that yesterdays flooding of a generator sub-
facility in Philadelphia was also due to an MBlaster variant
attack on the SCADA or similarly Win 2000 / XP based system.

To make things worst, the Web Interface is MS ActiveX. Now lets
see, how can one craft an ActiveX vuln vector into the blaster?

Oh, and for the wardrivers, SCADA can be access via wireless
connections on the road… puts a new perspective on sniffing
around sewer plants.

It is also reasonable to assume that we could have a similar
security threat regarding those system (SCADA and otherwise
based on MS 2000 or XP) involved in the control, data
acquisition, and maintenance of other critical infrastructure,
such as inter/intra state GAS Distribution, Nuclear Plant
Monitoring, Water and Sewer Processing, and city Traffic
Control. IMO

I think we will see a lot of finger pointing by government
agencies, Utilities, and politicians for the Grid outage, until
someone confess to the security dilemma and vulnerabilities in
the systems which are involved in running this critical
infrastructure.

Regardless of whether the Grid outage can be attributed to the
blaster or its variant, this is not entirely a Microsoft
problem, as it reeks of poor System Security Engineering
practiced by the Utility Companies, and associated equipment and
technology suppliers.

Nonetheless, the incident will cause lots of money to be
earmarked by the US and Canadian Governments, to be spent in an
attempt to solve the problem, or more specifically calm the
public.

This incident should be fully investigated, and regulations
passed to ensure that the Utility companies and their suppliers
develop and implement proper safeguards that will help prevent
or at least significantly mitigate the effects of such a
catastrophe.

Conversely, I do not want to see our Government directly
involved in yet another "business", which has such a controlling
impact over our individual lives.

-




On 14 Aug 2003 at 15:18, Geoff Shively wrote:


>> Just flipped on CNN, watching the masses snake through the
>> streets of Manhattan as correspondents state that this could be
>> an affect of the blaster worm.
>>
>> Interesting but I don't see how an worm of this magnitude
>> (smaller than that of Slammer/Sapphire and others) could
>> influence DCS and SCADA systems around the US, particularly just
>> in the North East.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Geoff Shively, CHO
>> PivX Solutions, LLC
>>

-
************************************************** **
Bernie
Chief Technology Architect
Chief Security Officer
cta@hcsin.net
Euclidean Systems, Inc.
************************************************** *****
// "There is no expedient to which a man will not go
// to avoid the pure labor of honest thinking."
// Honest thought, the real business capital.
// Observe> Think> Plan> Think> Do> Think>
************************************************** *****

mart_man00
08-15-2003, 04:58 PM
Im not trying to bash MS, but why they hell would a win box be allowed any where near a plant like that.

I though these people were using mainframes, there ones older than all of us, as in ones with almost all bugs fixed before we were born.

Why the hell would windows get on these things?

Sure are gov buys some, but there workstations. Nothing important.

I wonder if they can describe there hardware. I got a chance to check out some old school IBMs once(the next town over from me has 2 plants, they had a program to get some people in).

mart_man00
08-15-2003, 05:23 PM
Atleast there not running Apples:



Dear Apple,
I am a homosexual. I bought an Apple computer because of its well earned reputation for being "the" gay computer. Since I have become an Apple owner, I have been exposed to a whole new world of gay friends. It is really a pleasure to meet and compute with other homos such as myself. I plan on using my new Apple computer as a way to entice and recruit young schoolboys into the homosexual lifestyle; it would be so helpful if you could produce more software which would appeal to young boys. Thanks in advance.

with much gayness,

Father Randy "Pudge" O'Day, S.J.

--Slashdot.org, News for Nerds, Stuff that matters.

confuted
08-15-2003, 05:54 PM
Martman, is that Apple thing you just posted real? *doubts it*

mart_man00
08-15-2003, 06:05 PM
Martman, is that Apple thing you just posted real? *doubts it*
Its some ones comments, from slashdot.

I posted it as a joke, I think the guy wrote it as one too.

JaWiB
08-15-2003, 07:50 PM
this is not entirely a Microsoft
problem, as it reeks of poor System Security Engineering
practiced by the Utility Companies, and associated equipment and
technology suppliers.


...Any decent firewall should be able to block this worm AFAIK, so this theory seems somewhat implausible (to me, at least).

RoD
08-15-2003, 09:18 PM
I have ZA 4.0 and dont have this problem. I had alrdy disabled this $$$$ when i installed windows, i have been the whole year i have had xp. I thought it was common sense lol.

Anyway, BestBuy is charging 60.00 a hit to fix it, so i have been doing it all day at 20.00 a shot in the parking lot. I stood outside best buy and told people with pc's i would do it for 20.00, i made about 450.00 today.

golfinguy4
08-15-2003, 09:29 PM
One must admit that many of linux's desktop ideas and much of their design has been highly influenced by windows.

RoD
08-15-2003, 09:50 PM
Which was influenced by xerox

vasanth
08-15-2003, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by RoD
I have ZA 4.0 and dont have this problem. I had alrdy disabled this $$$$ when i installed windows, i have been the whole year i have had xp. I thought it was common sense lol.

Anyway, BestBuy is charging 60.00 a hit to fix it, so i have been doing it all day at 20.00 a shot in the parking lot. I stood outside best buy and told people with pc's i would do it for 20.00, i made about 450.00 today.


do you mean 20$ to remove the worm and install a patch. Man thats atrocious...:D:D i wish i was in the US fixin computers...

confuted
08-15-2003, 10:08 PM
You made $450 in $20 increments, eh RoD? Hmmm....

Where did you get power to run computers in the parking lot?

RoD
08-15-2003, 10:15 PM
not exact amount, i havent counted it its jus the number me and will are throwing around as a guesstimate. We didnt actually power them in the parking lot, we handed out printouts with our numbers and address with directions to our houses from the bust buy. We told everyone to start coming by after 5pm and stayed at best buy till about 3 till the cops got called on us. They told us to beat it and by that time we had alot of flyers passed out.

Took hold of a good opportunity.

golfinguy4
08-16-2003, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by RoD
Which was influenced by xerox

Ya, the idea of windows. What about everything else dumbass?


As for your other stuff, *cough*BS*cough*

Shogun
08-16-2003, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by spoon_
You all seem to forget where you would be without Microsoft's Windows & their other products.

The business world wouldn't be where it is now without Windows. Office workers would be less productive having to deal with the small idiosyncracies of Linux.

You probably wouldn't be playing half of the games you play now.

Windows is good $$$$, and you all know it. I've been runing Windows XP Pro for a year now. Never reformatted, never had one problem. You know why? Because I take care of my computer (updates, anti-virus, etc).


This part of your post is pure BS. What would I be with out MS and thier other products? Same place I would be now being a mac user.

THe business world could use macs instad...those work better then windowses anyway,so they would probably be more productiv not having to deal with thier compuers not working.

Lesser games? Nah I got planty of good games for mac which have never been near a windows so that's also BS.

I havn't reformated my mac running Mac OS 8.6 for about 5 years and it works perfect .And I've never reforamted the machin running redhat linux 6.2 (havn't gotten around to install a newer version)

:edited for spelling mistakes, and for leaving words out:

mart_man00
08-16-2003, 11:17 AM
THe business world could use macs instad...those work better then windowses anyway,so they would probably be more productiv not having to deal with thier compuers not working.
No, no one likes them for a reason.


Lesser games? Nah I got planty of good games for mac which have never been near a windows so that's also BS.
MS practicly owns the PC market, bull $$$$.


I havn't reformated my mac running Mac OS 8.6 for about 5 years and it works perfect .
Funny what happens when you dont use it and Apple takes no risks.


And I've never reforamted the machin running redhat linux 6.2 (havn't gotten around to install a newer version)
I still have good old Zoot running on a box some where :D


One must admit that many of linux's desktop ideas and much of their design has been highly influenced by windows.
"Every car company makes a steering wheel but no one tries to say the steering wheel is their invention"

The one thing I have to give MS/Gates credit for is business. Besides from making a nice amount of profits they turn computers into a real business.

Others helped, but they did alot and have the name.

Shogun
08-16-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by mart_man00

Funny what happens when you dont use it and Apple takes no risks.


I still have good old Zoot running on a box some where :D


I just both those computers on a daily bases.

Brian
08-16-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by golfinguy4
Ya, the idea of windows. What about everything else dumbass?


As for your other stuff, *cough*BS*cough*

I'm sorry, but the Windows interface was STOLEN from Xerox and Apple. KDE and Gnome are guilty of this too, but they both suck. There are better window managers.

Brian
08-16-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by mart_man00

The one thing I have to give MS/Gates credit for is business. Besides from making a nice amount of profits they turn computers into a real business.

$quote =~ s/business/monopoly/g;

RoD
08-17-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Brian
I'm sorry, but the Windows interface was STOLEN from Xerox and Apple. KDE and Gnome are guilty of this too, but they both suck. There are better window managers.

Exactly, and im the dumbass :rolleyes:

mart_man00
08-17-2003, 11:05 AM
$quote =~ s/business/monopoly/g;
Who cares? My point was they made CS a real business and brought computers to alot of people. Sure, they went evil afterwards but thats not my point, and is always implied:)

Brian
08-17-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by mart_man00
Who cares? My point was they made CS a real business and brought computers to alot of people. Sure, they went evil afterwards but thats not my point, and is always implied:)

that was ibm.

mart_man00
08-17-2003, 01:48 PM
that was ibm.
Not really, they planned to have only a couple supercomputer inth entire world. No such thing as personal computer.

They helped afterwards. At first they just made money off a few govs and very very rich people.

Windows help to bring it to normal people. Apple and Commodore did a great job of bringing it into the living room tho. Which basicly made real hackers, not todays crackers.

Any company could of did it instead of MS, but MS did it.

-KEN-
08-17-2003, 02:44 PM
Nobody really "stole" the GUI from anybody else. Xerox had the first commercially available GUI system, but today's modern GUIs have bits and pieces from all over the place in them. Although the team at the PARC was certainly way ahead of everybody else:

http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~sjr/origins.html

Govtcheez
08-17-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by -KEN-
Nobody really "stole" the GUI from anybody else. Xerox had the first commercially available GUI system, but today's modern GUIs have bits and pieces from all over the place in them. Although the team at the PARC was certainly way ahead of everybody else:

http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~sjr/origins.html Can you imagine what it must have been like to work there, when everything was new? That would have been so amazingly cool.

novacain
08-18-2003, 03:58 AM
>>why would you wait 6 yrs. to sue?

Did the company wait six years or did the case take six years to get a decision?

I don't think the company would have waited. I think MS knew if it delays the case long enough there would be little damage in an adverse finding. This si one of MS favorite tactics.

As to a world without MS.
PC's would be at least two years behind the current. MS has focused development and brought a standard to develop on.

Shogun
08-18-2003, 05:34 AM
PC's are alrady about 10 years behind the mac so that wouldn't be any big diff.

golfinguy4
08-18-2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Brian
I'm sorry, but the Windows interface was STOLEN from Xerox and Apple. KDE and Gnome are guilty of this too, but they both suck. There are better window managers.

Are you trying to tell me that windows created NOTHING that can be found in linux?

RoD
08-18-2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by golfinguy4
Are you trying to tell me that windows created NOTHING that can be found in linux?

Thats not what he said. He said the Windows interface is stolen, and then gnome, KDE, etc stole that. He was just confirming my point that it all started with Xerox, not Microsoft.

mart_man00
08-18-2003, 11:04 AM
PC's are alrady about 10 years behind the mac so that wouldn't be any big diff.
Yeah, they sure know how to make a desktop look gay with crayola colors....


For years the were screaming about there graphics, and for years we have beaten you. Movie studios are starting to switch to i386 Linux(backends are mostly SGIs, but some Linux boxes are in clusters).

Macs cant compete, no one cares. Its a small market on a very limited system. Plus they look bad, on screen and off.



The gui wars, again from Pirates of Silicon Valley(Gates)
"Every car company makes a steering wheel but no one tries to say the steering wheel is their invention"

Shogun
08-18-2003, 12:11 PM
I don't know anyone PC user/mac user/UNIX user who doesn't love mac OS X and if macs look so bad on the outside how come alot of companys are copying them in thier style?

You simply don't know what you're speaking about get yourself some facts before posting BS.

golfinguy4
08-18-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by RoD
Thats not what he said. He said the Windows interface is stolen, and then gnome, KDE, etc stole that. He was just confirming my point that it all started with Xerox, not Microsoft.

When did I say that? I know that it didn't start with MS. :rolleyes:

I'm just saying that MS has advanced linux.

mart_man00
08-18-2003, 01:56 PM
I don't know anyone PC user/mac user/UNIX user who doesn't love mac OS X [UOTE]
OSX isnt based on the System X OS/design. Its not really theres to beign with. Its like Redhat and Bluecurve, they made Bluecurve, not Linux.

[QUOTE]and if macs look so bad on the outside how come alot of companys are copying them in thier style?
Style? Whats their style?

Its called the ivac for a reason. The Gs look nice(at g3/4s havent seen the knew one in real life yet), but i hate there new design(the case is half a sphere and the LCD monitor is on a pole connected to the case).

Their good cases are just normal cases that have been modded alittle.

And i mention the physical stuff since there nothing to talk about with the software.


You simply don't know what you're speaking about get yourself some facts before posting BS.
Look up how many people buy PC vs Macs and actualy use one in a lab instead of looking at them.

Theres decent for somethings but there just not worth it. I got a couple dirt cheap(a zillion LC, a G3, and i fixed a guy imac before(reinstalled the software since he was a chicken. after he returned it, thankfully. There not worth it.

Plus i dont like anything Apple if it came after the 2's.

Shogun
08-18-2003, 02:07 PM
I will not comment you're stupidity anymore since you're obivuosly a lost case. So why bother?

Fountain
08-18-2003, 02:40 PM
Wait wait! Who is slagging who now? Ahh stuff it I am off to get a top rated latest game for my MAC!

:cool:

RoD
08-18-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by golfinguy4
When did I say that? I know that it didn't start with MS. :rolleyes:

I'm just saying that MS has advanced linux.

No thats what were saying. Xerox advanced linux. If not for xerox windows wouldnt have this GUI and then linux wouldnt have it.

Therefore windows isnt responsible.

novacain
08-18-2003, 08:50 PM
>>I'm sorry, but the Windows interface was STOLEN from Xerox and Apple.

And the Apple founders stole the very first disk operating system (DOS) from Gates when its founders were still playing in the Homebrew Computer Club. An off shoot from the 'black box' phreakers (Captn Krunch ect).