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gcn_zelda
08-06-2003, 06:45 PM
I'm just wondering. If you don't believe in a God, what do you guys/girls believe? What do you think happens when you die? Do you think you're gone without the ability to even think? I just wonder, because without religion to fill in the holes the scientists leave in their theories, it seems that everything would be impossible. For one example, gravity. How was gravity created? Is it just some thing that just happened? A natural phenomenon(or whatever that word is)? It's hard to understand everything if you don't believe in a god, in my opinion.

XSquared
08-06-2003, 06:47 PM
Oh great. Another religion thread.

gcn_zelda
08-06-2003, 06:52 PM
heh. I don't really care to start an argument(sp?), but I just want to know what they think

edit-by the way, I love your quote :D

XSquared
08-06-2003, 06:54 PM
Which one?

gcn_zelda
08-06-2003, 06:55 PM
your first one
edit-I tried to delete the post, but it won't allow me to.

Zach L.
08-06-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by XSquared
Oh great. Another religion thread.
Agreed... But the wording on this one seems to indicate it has potential for a decent discussion. Come on guys, lets not screw it up. :)



It's hard to understand everything if you don't believe in a god, in my opinion.

The simple answer (for me at least) is that I don't try to understand everything. How the four fundamental forces of the universe split the way they did, or where the universe came from are questions that I would definitely like to know, but I'm not sure it is possible to (granted that shouldn't be a taken that we should stop trying).

I'm a bit of a mathematician, so the way I see things is that there are fundamental axioms that are simply understood (cannot be defined by lower level components). The axioms of the universe potentially could have been much different, but everything is built upon those axioms. What exactly those axioms are (if they do indeed exist) is rather hard to say.

Cat
08-06-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by gcn_zelda
It's hard to understand everything if you don't believe in a god, in my opinion.

You'll never find wisdom if your goal is to "understand everything". No matter how much we understand about the universe, about nature, about ourselves, we only scratch the surface.

Further, the fact that humanity lacks understanding of some phenomena doesn't make that phenomena impossible, nor does it mean that an explanation can't exist. Until quantum mechanics came around, nobody could explain how the sun could undergo fusion. Under newtonian mechanics, the sun is hundreds of times too cold for fusion -- the average kinetic energy of a hydrogen ion can't even come close to overcoming the electrostatic barrier preventing ions from coming close enough to fuse.

But simply because we couldn't explain why the sun could undergo fusion doesn't mean there WASN'T an explanation. We just didn't know it.

Perspective
08-06-2003, 07:26 PM
There are no holes in the scientific explanation of gravity.... it didnt just 'happen' its a result of mass. anything with mass has a gravitational field. (yes, even you, me, my computer, and the pencil on my desk) you can calculate the gravitational force between any two objects with F = (G * m1 * m2) / r^2 (is r squared?)

sorry if im straying off topic, but i cant really think of any scientific theories that 'use god to fill in the holes'. Just because we cant explain something does not mean it is unexplainable. it just hasnt been explained yet :)

gcn_zelda
08-06-2003, 07:28 PM
>>its a result of mass. anything with mass has a gravitational field

Why is that so, though?

*ClownPimp*
08-06-2003, 08:07 PM
If your really interested in atheism here (http://forums.about.com/ab-atheism/) is a good place to look for info.

RoD
08-06-2003, 10:09 PM
>>I'm just wondering. If you don't believe in a God, what do you guys/girls believe?

Evolution, that were here, $$$$ happens.

>>What do you think happens when you die?

I'll decompose.

>>Do you think you're gone without the ability to even think?

Bug food cant think.

>>I just wonder, because without religion to fill in the holes the scientists leave in their theories, it seems that everything would be impossible. For one example, gravity. How was gravity created?

Dunno, try not to think too hard. Theres some answers that need to be left untouched.

The bible dates the planet to a certain time period, i dont member its exact i dont study the bible. The problem with this date is this: Its after dinasours. (spelling)

adrianxw
08-06-2003, 10:30 PM
>>> Do you think you're gone without the ability to even think?

This is one of the reason's religion persists. People don't like the truth, i.e. that when they die - they're dead, finished, over, gone. Much easier to invent a belief system whereby after death there is something else.

There are many models for gravity, none truly accurate at the moment, but that doesn't mean anything. Most things had dubious models before the truth of the matter was discovered. I am quite sure that gravity will be adequately understood one day.

gcn_zelda
08-06-2003, 10:49 PM
>>Evolution, that were here, $$$$ happens

heh

RoD
08-06-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by gcn_zelda
>>Evolution, that were here, $$$$ happens

heh

thought u'd like that.

novacain
08-06-2003, 11:32 PM
>>If you don't believe in a God, what do you guys/girls believe?

That the world would be abetter place if we all lived for the present and not some promised paradise.
I believe in Clyde's Invisible Kangaroo and Father Christmas.


Why don't you still believe in Father Christmas?
Did your parents or friends tell you he was not real?
do you have any proof of your own, did the person who told you? No, you just accepted what they believe and copied thier faith.

Why do you believe in God?
Did your parents or friends tell you he was real?
do you have any proof of your own, did the person who told you? No, you just accepted what they believe and copied thier faith.

Most people follow the path of least resistance........


>>What do you think happens when you die? Do you think you're gone without the ability to even think?

That is it, your life is over. Why do you think we have to go on?

>>I just wonder, because without religion to fill in the holes the scientists leave in their theories, it seems that everything would be impossible.

You can't make this statement without some examples. I don't accept "it seems that everything would be impossible" is even remotely true.

Can you name a theory that has religion fill a hole in it?


>>It's hard to understand everything if you don't believe in a god, in my opinion.

If I understood everything I would know what was going to happen tomorrow and the next day ect. Without surpises, new discoveries and anticipation I would not survive.

mart_man00
08-06-2003, 11:34 PM
I like how South Park put it tonigh, the Bible is just a bunch of stories to help you live your life. Thats basicly what all religion is for, keeping people good and not scaring them with death.

But it doesnt always work out....

TechWins
08-07-2003, 01:08 AM
To sum it up down to the basic primitives, there are ones who need to practice a religion and/or believe in a higher power for them to go through their life, and there are those of us who do not need to practice a relgion nor believe in a higher power for us to get through our lives. The levels of practice of a religion and beliefs in a higher power vary based on the questions the person needs to be answered.

If that's not able to answer your question, gcn_zelda, I'm not sure what will. It correctly and directly answers the reason for certain people not needing or wanting to practice a relgion nor believe in a higher power.:)

RoD
08-07-2003, 01:19 AM
Religion is a product of fear, thats all.

Clyde
08-07-2003, 04:41 AM
I'm just wondering. If you don't believe in a God, what do you guys/girls believe? What do you think happens when you die? Do you think you're gone without the ability to even think?


Well, i think when i die, I die, i cease, i don't "go" anywhere, it's like being unconcious.



I just wonder, because without religion to fill in the holes the scientists leave in their theories,


Heh, theres a quite a lot wrong with this statement:

Scientists do not "leave holes" in their theories, you make it sound like they deliberately drop them in. Some theories have more evidence supporting them than others, some involve a greater number of a approximations than others, but they are all constantly being updated revised and even rewritten, science's greatest strength is its adaptability, it always gives you the best bet and is constantly improving the odds.

There are theories now that do not completely explain the phenomena they describe, but it is a mistake to assume that anything currently unexplainable is due to God. If you do that, your God becomes a God of the gaps, constantly being chipped away by scientific advancement. Consider the people like you 500 years ago who used religion to fill the gaps they saw in science, they would have seen their God go up in smoke as science unveiled explanations for everything they attributed to him.



it seems that everything would be impossible. For one example, gravity. How was gravity created? Is it just some thing that just happened? A natural phenomenon(or whatever that word is)?


Well, this line of questioning goes back to the big bang, when you ask how do you explain _this_, there will always be an explanation, along of the lines of because of _that_, gravity is essentially a property of mass, then the questions become well why is that, and if and when we unravell the quantum-gravity you might well get an answer but it will leave something else to query.

Ultimately it will lead back to the big bang like everything else, you ask "why is this" about anything, and then keep on asking why to the explanation given and you end up at the big bang.

So then with the big bang itself you have two possibilities:

Either A, it just happened, there is no prior step.
or B, something made it

The intuitive answer is B, it sounds right, it feels right, its makes you happy inside, and many people debating religion will say that this is a reason to believe in God.

The big bang must have been made by something, therefore God must exist.

But the reasoning is horribly flawed, for a start God is only one of an infinite number of possible creators, from invisible magic kangaroos to purely unconscious physical processes. Whats more invoking another step doesn't solve the problem at all, because you still have the first step originating out of nothing unless you believe that there are an infinite number of steps, every creator in turn has a creator.

Since the only two possibilites are either the first step originated out of nothing or there are an infinite number of steps, then it becomes more reasonable to consider whether or not the big bang is the first step.

What stops things just spontaneously jumping into existence? Well rules do, rules that govern what's allowed to happen and what's not, those rules are the laws of physics, but the laws of physics are a property of the universe, and 'prior' to the big bang they didnt exist, there were no rules! Or atleast our rules that specify cause and effect didn't exist, so there is not neccessarily a problem with the big bang being the first step. Furthermore, TIME itself began with the big-bang, since time began, there could not be a 'before', so its hard to see how there could have been a prior step.

These ideas are not intuitive they feel instictively wrong, but the more you look at what makes the universe tick you realise that the universe is not an intuitive place.



It's hard to understand everything if you don't believe in a god, in my opinion.


You're right, thinking about whether or not causality is absolute is hard when you can just say "God did it" and not think about it any more, the process of evolution is complicated, much more so than the simple "God did it" answer you get from the story of creation. But then relativity is vastly more complex and much much harder to understand than simple Newtonian mechanics, and yet it is the more accurate of the two. Quantum mechanics is probably the harderst thing around to understand and yet is probably the most powerfull explanation that physicists have ever devised.

The universe is a complicated place, and alot of things are hard to understand, but by substituting simple ideas that don't actually add up but are easy to comprehend for complicated ideas that are logically sound, you are abandoning the search for the truth, and are constructing your own fantasy land. One that can never compare to the astounding nature of the real universe.

- Hope i've answered your question.

Oh yea heres a rather beautifull poem (well i think it is) which sums up quite nicely how I as a student of science and as an atheist see Life, the Universe and Everything:

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/how_we_got_here_ns.htm

iain
08-07-2003, 05:51 AM
the theory of gravity just exisiting is no more impossible than the idea of god just exisiting in the first place.

Govtcheez
08-07-2003, 06:39 AM
To restate:

> do you think happens when you die?

All the major news channels do a 30 second segment where they look teary eyed and show various pictures from my life. Other than that, not much.

> Do you think you're gone without the ability to even think?

I sure hope so - being in a coffin 6' under ground might give me too much time to think.

> religion to fill in the holes the scientists leave in their theories

HAHAHA! Oh, you're serious. As Clyde said, nothing in science is definite. If something comes up to change our perception of the universe, then the theories can be changed to adapt.

> it seems that everything would be impossible.

Why on earth does it seem that way?

> It's hard to understand everything if you don't believe in a god, in my opinion.

If you rely on that answer for everything, you will never really understand anything.

joshdick
08-07-2003, 06:47 AM
Someone brought up the question of gravity and how it got here. How did anything get here? I really don't give a rip. Does it matter how the standard libraries got here? No, it just matters that we understand them enough to use them. I understand that if drop something, it will fall. That's all a non-physicist really needs to know about gravity.

As for an Afterlife, I have no more reason to believe in one than I do a god. I live my life as if it is my only one to live. I'm not going to shortchange myself in the hopes that I'll appease a supernatural being enough to keep myself from fire and brimstone after death. If I go on to a better place after death, that's nice. If not, oh well.

Oftentimes I see people wrestling with really big philosophical questions like How did we get here? and Where are we going? But I happen to think that philosophy can be more practical than that. Try answering this: What should I do while I'm here? and What will make me happy? Now, those are some questions that require consideration. Instead of worrying about big bangs or creation or heaven or hell, I say worry about the here and now. If someone can tell me how to achieve happiness, I'd be much indebted. I'm still wrestling with that question myself.

You ask us how atheists can make sense of the world. Well, as an atheist, I ask you how the world makes sense to a Christian. Why so much suffering and injustice if there's a benevolent god watching over all of us?

I think atheists are generally more accepting of things. Also, we live for this lifetime rather than some Afterlife we think we might get. I hope that clears things up for you.

FillYourBrain
08-07-2003, 07:49 AM
why does this have to happen. People, I'm a Christian and by that definition I should be wanting to convince you all that it is right. In fact the religion binds me to that commitment. But there is a time and place. There is the matter of waiting for a potentially receptive audience. So the process of "witnessing" isn't well served in a message board argument. I wish more people would realize this.

I hate arguments about religion and politics. You all should too. Those of you who don't believe in God, ought not care what others believe in, as you don't really believe you serve any purpose here anyway. With that in mind, somebody close this. I wish there was a single moderator who's only purpose here was to close threads about religion and politics, or better yet a "Religion and Politics" forum separate from GD so people who can't shut up about it could leave the light-hearted GD feel alone.

Govtcheez
08-07-2003, 07:56 AM
> You all should too.

SOLD!

> as you don't really believe you serve any purpose here anyway

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Just because I don't think I'm here to serve Jesus doesn't mean I think life is pointless.

FillYourBrain
08-07-2003, 07:58 AM
hmmm...
I'm not trying to upset you.:rolleyes:

codegirl
08-07-2003, 08:25 AM
hmm, I was going to post a more lengthy reply, but FYB seems to think this will just turn into an argument, so I'll just keep it short. (Although I can't help but wonder, if you don't like religion/politics threads, you don't have to post in them....) Anyway, if you're interested in seeing what Christians believe about science, you can always do some research. Especially with creation/evolution -- that's really the only theory with "holes" that I can think of, because there is a lot that scientists haven't been able to explain and there's also evidence contradictory to evolution -- evidence showing the Earth is about 6000 yrs old, for example. Some good, comprehensive sites on creation/evolution are:

http://christiananswers.net/creation/home.html
http://www.drdino.com/

While they are written from a Christian perspective, they do cite their sources so you can look up the scientific articles if you want. Also http://www.naturalism-1.com/ is one of many articles pointing out the flaws in the famous Stanley Miller experiment where he claimed to have "created" life.

Finally, an excellent source on creation and on joshdick's questions on happiness and meaning of life is the book "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. Lee Strobel was originally an atheist who several years ago set out to prove that Jesus could not have been the Son of God and could not have risen from the dead, but when presented with so much archealogical and historical evidence, he concluded that Jesus had to have been God and wrote the book "The Case for Christ." His second book, "The Case for Faith," addresses 8 common questions athiests have about Christianity -- why is there suffering, creation/evolution, how can a loving God create a Hell, etc, and answers them by interviewing qualified scientists and philosophers. So he answers the questions from an intellectual viewpoint, not the emotional viewpoint that so many Christian authors take, which is a nice change. If nothing else, that book can give you a little insight into what Christians believe about such things. So if you don't like arguing, I'd encourage you to check out that book or do a little online research.

FillYourBrain
08-07-2003, 08:36 AM
(Although I can't help but wonder, if you don't like religion/politics threads, you don't have to post in them....) I usually don't. But I'm trying to promote the cause of separating the forums at the moment. I know it probably won't happen though. The Case for Faith is a good one by the way.

adrianxw
08-07-2003, 08:40 AM
The reason religious threads get long and out of hand on here is simple. Neither side of the argument is prepared to change their mind. So the same old arguments get touted out again and again in different forms, and the same old rebuttals are made against them.

People who believe in god, believe in god. People who don't, don't.

QED.

Govtcheez
08-07-2003, 08:46 AM
Just sayin'.

Seems a lot of times in these threads the religious people make sweeping generalizations about the atheists, saying that atheists feel that everything should be "natural" - there should be no laws, we only should try and satisfy ourselves, etc. Of course, this isn't true. Atheists then point out the reliigous people exist only to live their lives by a 2000 year old book and are afraid of any change because the Bible doesn't agree. Of course, this isn't true either.

Right about then, someone will bring up Linux or American Imperialism or Commies or Nazis, and the whole thing becomes one giant cluster$$$$ of shouting and fingerpointing. The religious people fight the atheists, the linux supporters fight the windows supporters, people from America fight the rest of the world, and in the center, there's the site admin, vainly struggling to maintain his sanity while creating the illusion of free speech.

Whoa. I think I summed up the Internet in 2 paragraphs.

Clyde
08-07-2003, 08:52 AM
or better yet a "Religion and Politics" forum separate from GD so people who can't shut up about it could leave the light-hearted GD feel alone.


Why don't you just not read threads that are going to involve religion or politics? What exactly did you think this thread would be about? Chicken soup?



Especially with creation/evolution -- that's really the only theory with "holes" that I can think of, because there is a lot that scientists haven't been able to explain and there's also evidence contradictory to evolution -- evidence showing the Earth is about 6000 yrs old, for example. Some good, comprehensive sites on creation/evolution are:


No no no no no no no!

And no! again.

Evolutionary theory has not got "holes" in it, it fits, it works, its observeable it is as much fact as the theory of heliocentricity. There are always minor adjustaments to be made, but the mainstay of the theory is here to stay.

Likewise the evidence points to Earth's age being 4 billion odd years old, there is no debate, no real doubt, not among the scientific community, only people with vested interested in a young Earth (for religious reasons) doubt it.

I realise it is very easy to be lead astray if you don't have a background in science and are in a religously orientated environment, because there are a wealth of sites out there no doubt including some of the ones you posted (I haven't yet gone through them) that talk absolute gibberish about evolution, the age of the Earth etc. they have many arguments but every single one has been refuted hundreds of times.

Of course you might think that once an argument has been refuted it would simply go away and not resurface, but because of the vested interest that doesn't happen and the same ones go round and round and round and round.

*Checks links*
OH DEAR GOD you've got HIS site The ARCH-moron himself Kent Hovind, that man has not got the faintest clue about.... well anything. He is almost as stupid as Ken Ham.

I cannot stress just how stupid this guy is, just how fantastically ignorant of science he is, and i'm afraid thats pretty much the case with all the YEC protangonists, because the conclusion based on the available evidence is crystal clear.



. Also http://www.naturalism-1.com/ is one of many articles pointing out the flaws in the famous Stanley Miller experiment where he claimed to have "created" life.


Miller's experiment never claimed to have created life, merely amino acids.

Govtcheez
08-07-2003, 09:10 AM
> Kent Hovind,

I love this guy - my gf's roomate at school had a bunch of his stuff.

Clyde
08-07-2003, 09:13 AM
The Case for Faith is a good one by the way


What case for faith?

FillYourBrain
08-07-2003, 09:17 AM
its a book clyde. referenced by codegirl. And calm down.
Why don't you just not read threads that are going to involve religion or politics? What exactly did you think this thread would be about? Chicken soup? under that rational, we could just eliminate all the other forums and join them into one. Then we can just go by the thread titles! wouldn't that be great?!?

adrianxw
08-07-2003, 09:20 AM
>>> Kent Hovind,

That's the guy from that DrDino site yes? Man, I just was browsing over there, my sides are still aching! Whoever it is put that together simply has not got a clue have they?!?!

Whenever I need a laugh, I'll pop back.

Clyde
08-07-2003, 09:36 AM
its a book clyde. referenced by codegirl. And calm down


Oh i see, i think i've come across it before 2 years ago..... but its a vague memory. I suspect i will have heard the arguments before but i may well look it up if i have the opportunity.



under that rational, we could just eliminate all the other forums and join them into one. Then we can just go by the thread titles! wouldn't that be great?!?


If all threads were posted in one forum threads would disappear too quickly, and you would have to search pages and pages back for the post you wanted, presumeably thats why separate forums are created.

I don't think the number of political/religious threads is so large that its an issue with GD. Have you lost sight of any threads, because of a glut or religous/political threads?

Besides i like reading the polical threads, a big part of the reason i like this forum is because there are a lot of informed smart people, and i like hearing the views of informed smart people on non-light-hearted subjects.

And well i like debating the religious ones for several reasons no doubt one of them is because i just like debating, but it also clarifies ideas in your mind, shows you how other people think, makes you better at debating, better able to phrase arguments, more convincing, etc. Those are usefull skills. It also makes me look stuff up, my grasp of evolutionary theory would undoubtedly have waned much faster if i hadn't had to argue with creationists.

Plus you never know who is reading, maybe occasionally political/religious threads do change people's opinions, or atleast challenge them, I think its good to challenge people's beliefs about politics, about religion, about everything really, make them think.

Thinking is good.

moonwalker
08-07-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by novacain
>>If you don't believe in a God, what do you guys/girls believe?

That the world would be abetter place if we all lived for the present and not some promised paradise.
I believe in Clyde's Invisible Kangaroo and Father Christmas.


Why don't you still believe in Father Christmas?
Did your parents or friends tell you he was not real?
do you have any proof of your own, did the person who told you? No, you just accepted what they believe and copied thier faith.

Why do you believe in God?
Did your parents or friends tell you he was real?
do you have any proof of your own, did the person who told you? No, you just accepted what they believe and copied thier faith.

Most people follow the path of least resistance........


>>What do you think happens when you die? Do you think you're gone without the ability to even think?

That is it, your life is over. Why do you think we have to go on?

>>I just wonder, because without religion to fill in the holes the scientists leave in their theories, it seems that everything would be impossible.

You can't make this statement without some examples. I don't accept "it seems that everything would be impossible" is even remotely true.

Can you name a theory that has religion fill a hole in it?


>>It's hard to understand everything if you don't believe in a god, in my opinion.

If I understood everything I would know what was going to happen tomorrow and the next day ect. Without surpises, new discoveries and anticipation I would not survive.
Very Very well said!!!!
Kudos!

didaskalos
08-07-2003, 12:29 PM
>Why do you believe in God?
Did your parents or friends tell you he was real?
do you have any proof of your own, did the person who told you? No, you just accepted what they believe and copied thier faith.

Yeah, that's true for many persons, but not for everyone, so we shouldn't say that about all people, in generall.

>It's hard to understand everything if you don't believe in a god, in my opinion

No buddy, that's wrong. ( i know that when you say everything you don't really mean everything )

>Scientists do not "leave holes" in their theories
True.

>Why so much suffering and injustice if there's a benevolent god watching over all of us?
No buddy. It's not God's fault that there is so much unjust and crime in the world. Humans can choose how to behave. People are free to do whatever they want to do. And unfortunetely, most of us prefer the easier way of unjustice.

>Also, we live for this lifetime rather than some Afterlife we think we might get.
I live for both.

-Someone asked why do religious discussions get so long
For me, they don't. ( just for me, when i participate )

>when you can just say "God did it" and not think about it any more

No buddy. You could only say this, only if Christianity told to science to stop researching because the answer is God. But it doesn't.

Also, i would like to say that Christianity never comes in contrast with science.

By saying that sentence, you make me believe ( i might be wrong ) that you say that "ah, lucky Christians, that's to easy for you to explain these things" .
Firstly, we encourage scientists to make researches and find out more, as i said previously.
Then, here's how the things go:
Some Scientists say , for example, that universe "came from" the Big Bang - not everybody agrees here. Then they can't explain how that ball was created, and they can't go on, but they know that it was created from something and that it didn't existed all the time.
Now, if this is true, theologists come and say that, yeah, that's not against our beliefs and if that ball existed, God might created it, since it can't be created from zero.
However this balls might never existed, and the planets were creates as "we know them today".
Again, theologists come and say that, yeah, if this is true our belief doesnt say the opposit.
But why encourage scientists to learn more.
So, to these topics we don't take the easy way you mentioned before .

However, that wasn't what i wanted to discuss.

What i wanted to say, is that if you find Christians lucky as i "imaginied" previously you 'r doing a very big mistake.
Do you know how difficult is to be a Christian?? Off course i am not talking about all those who wre baptised Christians, but for those who are true Christians. Do you know how difficult is to resist to craft thoughts? And generally to all those temptations? Extremely difficult.

But i would say that atheists are those who take the easy way. There is no need for an atheist to resist to all those temptations. For example, a real Christian will say that he can't kill his neighbour, because God says no. But, nothing can stop an atheist from killing his neghbour.

Govtcheez
08-07-2003, 12:38 PM
> Also, i would like to say that Christianity never comes in contrast with science.

How old is the world? How long did it take the earth to be created?

> Extremely difficult

Hey, good for you.

> But, nothing can stop an atheist from killing his neghbour.

No, I'm pretty sure the law tells me that. Plus, I'm a generally nice guy - I'd like to think that as a nice guy, I don't kill people indiscriminately, whether I believe in invisible kangaroos or not. But now that you've told me how I should think, there was a guy in the hall that looked at me in a way I didn't like. I'm gonna go stab him.

edit: I'm back - man, that was easy and liberating. I'm glad that, as an atheist, I'm totally immune to having any moral whatsoever!

adrianxw
08-07-2003, 12:58 PM
>>> i would like to say that Christianity never comes in contrast with science.

Ahhh, thousands of Spanish Inquisitors cannot be wrong - lovely to hear the old arguments reverbing around isn't it.

didaskalos:

I like where you live. Interestingly though, we have a number of banned user accounts from there.

nvoigt
08-07-2003, 01:02 PM
>Chicken soup?

Oh, wait. I actually saw the chicken ! Touched it ! How is that for a religious theory ? I actually have living proof of IT's existance !
I'll go write a book about that chicken so people can worship it the next twothousand years...

uhm... yeah, back on topic...


I believe in [X], therefore [X] must be true.

Insert "The existance of God" for religious people.
Insert "The absence of a higher being" for atheists.

Neither can prove their point using normal logic, because this is not possible. Both parties belief. Both call it the absolute truth.

Challenge to the believers: Prove your theory.

Please note a very simple logical rule: You have to prove your claim. Just because the other side can't prove the contrary doesn't mean your point is correct.

Seems that Sunlight was the only agnostic besides me... *sigh*

Govtcheez
08-07-2003, 01:11 PM
> Seems that Sunlight was the only agnostic besides me... *sigh*

Nope.

edit: I realize I come off as an atheist, but I'm really not. I'll refute stupid arguments from both sides, if they're presented. Honestly, though - what are Clyde, novacain, and adrian going to give me to refute?

Clyde
08-07-2003, 01:12 PM
No buddy. It's not God's fault that there is so much unjust and crime in the world. Humans can choose how to behave. People are free to do whatever they want to do. And unfortunetely, most of us prefer the easier way of unjustice


The argument doesn't work on several levels:

1) Free-will contradicts gods omniscience since it means he cant fortell the future - if the future exists free will cannot, if the future does not exist God cannot know it.

2) Freewill doesn't solve anything, because if God was infinitely powerfull, and infinitely blah blah, then we would all be perfect people, perfect people with choice but still perfect people: There are some choices we have that we never make, or rather an extremely small number of people make them, take eating al your meals with your toes, met many people who do that? No, and yet theoretically they could choose to, but its in our nature not to, correspondingly if God was all he's meant to be, our nature would not include being total ****s half the time.

3) It fails to account for problems that have nothing to do with mankind like disease, what kind of bastard God put alzheimers in the world?



No buddy. You could only say this, only if Christianity told to science to stop researching because the answer is God. But it doesn't


It is no longer able to control research because it no longer has the power, when it did have the power it did hamper research and scientific advancement, Galileo, Darwin, etc.

Even though it now lacks that power, it still screws up scientific education and so in that sense it still damages science: see evolution, age of Earth, etc.



Firstly, we encourage scientists to make researches and find out more, as i said previously.


Who is "we"? The Fundy's certainly do not.



Some Scientists say , for example, that universe "came from" the Big Bang - not everybody agrees here


Everyone agreeing doesn't really matter, what matters is the best bet, and the best bet is the big bang. As far as i'm aware its taken with a fair degree of certainty these days, given how far they can track back with background radiation.



Then they can't explain how that ball was created, and they can't go on, but they know that it was created from something and that it didn't existed all the time


... i have addressed this already.



However this balls might never existed, and the planets were creates as "we know them today".


Unless an intelligent agent has placed all the evidence to lead to the contrary that seems impossible.



What i wanted to say, is that if you find Christians lucky as i "imaginied" previously you 'r doing a very big mistake.
Do you know how difficult is to be a Christian??


Well i know af ew Christians they don't seem to struggle with life.



Off course i am not talking about all those who wre baptised Christians, but for those who are true Christians.


Everyone has their own definition of the "true" Christian, or the "true" Muslim, or the "true" whatever.



Do you know how difficult is to resist to craft thoughts? And generally to all those temptations? Extremely difficult.


Whats are craft thoughts?

edit:



For example, a real Christian will say that he can't kill his neighbour, because God says no. But, nothing can stop an atheist from killing his neghbour


Then why is it that atheists in general do not go about killing their neighbours?

Govtcheez
08-07-2003, 01:14 PM
> Whats are craft thoughts?


Like the impulse to start weaving a basket.

Clyde
08-07-2003, 01:22 PM
I believe in [X], therefore [X] must be true.

Insert "The existance of God" for religious people.
Insert "The absence of a higher being" for atheists.

Neither can prove their point using normal logic, because this is not possible. Both parties belief. Both call it the absolute truth.

Challenge to the believers: Prove your theory.

Please note a very simple logical rule: You have to prove your claim. Just because the other side can't prove the contrary doesn't mean your point is correct.


Your logic is flawed:

1) There is no such thing as proof.

2) It is impossible to collect direct evidence for a lack of a God, non-Gods do not leave evidence, it is only possible to infer things from the world, e.g. does this world indicate a infintely powerfully infitely wise infitely blah designer, well obviously not, because its shot to hell

3) You cannot claim that I believe in X, and I don't believe in X, are equally valid when neither has any evidence to back them up. The only sane way we have of determining what is real is based upon positive evidence, not lack of negative evidence.

If we followed your reasoning we would conclude that the man who believes in floating invisible kangaroos is as likely to be correct as the man who doesn't, that the man who believes in Santa Claus is as likely to be right as the man who doesn't, that a man who believes that a herd of elephants are going to materialise above his head and trample him to death is as reasonably balanced as people who do not live in constant fear of elephant death.

Its absurd and you know it is, apply the same reasoning you apply to belief in invisible elephants or talking radiators to God and you will see him fade into nonsense.

adrianxw
08-07-2003, 01:31 PM
>>> going to give me to refute?

The right to rot and return your ill-begotten nutrients to the soil.

Govtcheez
08-07-2003, 01:32 PM
> ill-begotten

Hey - I didn't do anything ill to beget these nutrients. My parents did.

Silvercord
08-07-2003, 02:40 PM
I believe things just exist and there is nothing that says we must be able to understand them. What is reason? What is theory? What is energy? What is a question? What is three dimensional space? What is an idea? Is it possible to draw any absolute conclusions about anything, even the things we thought we understood. Who really knows the answer to any of these questions?

ZakkWylde969
08-07-2003, 03:17 PM
I'm not going to get started because I'd get in trouble. But gravity is because you have a huge mass spinning in a circle which holds us down.

FillYourBrain
08-07-2003, 03:29 PM
I'm pretty sure the spinning is irrelevant Zakk. The mass is what attracts. If anything, spinning would create an opposing, outward force. :)

ZerOrDie
08-07-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Clyde
Your logic is flawed:

1) There is no such thing as proof.

2) It is impossible to collect direct evidence for a lack of a God, non-Gods do not leave evidence, it is only possible to infer things from the world, e.g. does this world indicate a infintely powerfully infitely wise infitely blah designer, well obviously not, because its shot to hell

3) You cannot claim that I believe in X, and I don't believe in X, are equally valid when neither has any evidence to back them up. The only sane way we have of determining what is real is based upon positive evidence, not lack of negative evidence.

If we followed your reasoning we would conclude that the man who believes in floating invisible kangaroos is as likely to be correct as the man who doesn't, that the man who believes in Santa Claus is as likely to be right as the man who doesn't, that a man who believes that a herd of elephants are going to materialise above his head and trample him to death is as reasonably balanced as people who do not live in constant fear of elephant death.

Its absurd and you know it is, apply the same reasoning you apply to belief in invisible elephants or talking radiators to God and you will see him fade into nonsense.

in other words if you believe in anything you cant see or prove your crazy hurray! So i guess columbus was crazy seeing as he tried to sail around a world that was most definitly flat! I also assume you think Albert Einstein was most definitly not "reasonably balanced" seeing as how he was religious!

:rolleyes: these threads always turn out great :rolleyes:

by the way Santa Claus was created by coca cola for the non religious folks who did not like the idea of saint nicholas