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Silvercord
07-18-2003, 10:37 AM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030717/ts_nm/iraq_bush_graham_dc_2


at least clinton did something COOL to get impeached...

RoD
07-18-2003, 11:34 AM
I dont like bush, and i dont like gore, so we were screwed either way. As for going to war, i dont feel we should have been over there, and we sure as hell shouldnt be there now, people of our military are dying for no reason and its crap.

I want clinton back.

Silvercord
07-18-2003, 01:51 PM
I hear you

Zach L.
07-18-2003, 01:52 PM
I didn't really like Clinton... I don't really like Bush... Why can't we get a Libertarian in there?!

Silvercord
07-18-2003, 01:55 PM
Why would we want a vegetarian for president? We need someone that likes meat...I thought that was fairly obvious, friggin hippie

Cheeze-It
07-18-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Zach L.
I didn't really like Clinton... I don't really like Bush... Why can't we get a Libertarian in there?!

Because they're idiots that'll legalize everything.

Zach L.
07-18-2003, 03:47 PM
Indeedy... Less government... Less inefficiency... Less useless, unenforced laws... More freedom... More self-responsibilty. Sounds terrible.

ZakkWylde969
07-18-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Zach L.
Indeedy... Less government... Less inefficiency... Less useless, unenforced laws... More freedom... More self-responsibilty. Sounds terrible.

Yes until your roads don't get paved because they can't afford it. Crime rate will drop because illegal stuff will be made legal. And RoD freeing a country of a tyrant is always worthwhile. Imagine you being one of those people liberated from Saddam and your thoughts would take a 360 degree turn.

mart_man00
07-18-2003, 10:47 PM
ZakkWylde969, most of the time im with bush.

he doesnt make anything legal and he doesnt run the country like a coward. but i dont see him helping with all new crap computer laws. pretty soon it will be a crime not to use windows, because you know to much.

but clinton wouldnt of stood up to anyone one so im glad we have the lesser of 2 evils.

i do hate how hes slowly giving into the left. but still the best man so far.

<edit>
i want oreilly for president

Silvercord
07-18-2003, 11:54 PM
take a 360 degree turn.


I resent that, but I know deep down in your godless heart you really meant 2PI radians

slaveofthenet
07-19-2003, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by ZakkWylde969
freeing a country of a tyrant is always worthwhile.Not always.

Scourfish
07-19-2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by RoD

I want clinton back.

Did you know that, just like bush, clinton did not win the popular vote?

Zach L.
07-19-2003, 09:16 AM
Yes until your roads don't get paved because they can't afford it. Crime rate will drop because illegal stuff will be made legal.


I'm not sure your entirely clear on the concept. If you had no government, then there would be no revenue for the gov't, and no money for anything such as public works. As it is, the government wastes a lot of money, and maintains a lot of useless laws, or ones that restrict freedom. Violent crimes would still be crimes, and people would still be punished.


And RoD freeing a country of a tyrant is always worthwhile. Imagine you being one of those people liberated from Saddam and your thoughts would take a 360 degree turn.

The method of removal isn't always worthwhile. Now why don't we get rid of Suharto - oh wait, he's still a friend, I forgot.

Zach L.
07-19-2003, 09:20 AM
i want oreilly for president


That might not be a bad idea. :)

vasanth
07-19-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by ZakkWylde969
Yes until your roads don't get paved because they can't afford it. Crime rate will drop because illegal stuff will be made legal. And RoD freeing a country of a tyrant is always worthwhile. Imagine you being one of those people liberated from Saddam and your thoughts would take a 360 degree turn.

hmm.. a 360 degree turn would be the same point from where you started...



American politics and peoples idelogy some how amazes me.... First they said they are right.. now the same people say we had no business going there.....

Zach L.
07-19-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by vasanth
American politics and peoples idelogy some how amazes me.... First they said they are right.. now the same people say we had no business going there.....

No, there was a good bit of dissent before the war as well. Many people who said it was an idiotic idea then still say so, and many who supported it still do. You can't just lump everyone into having a collective opinion.

mart_man00
07-19-2003, 12:04 PM
That might not be a bad idea.
lol, yeah. we wouldnt be able to shut him up. but he wouldnt make everything legal, give into the left or blow all our money.

how many billions do we just blow away every year? most of its isnt even for the us, what is for the us is often wasted.

schools are one, they throw in more and more money(or they beg for it) and they never fix it. the problem changes from school to school. more and more it seems to be the teachers and they say it because they dont have alot of money.

this is very messed up.

im not completly thrilled how we handled this war either. we have alot of napalm and old school bombs we never used. we should of just level his area and left, a weekend war. we could of and it would of been cheaper. why do we have to fix their problems? its their country and we already helped you. we always hold every countries hand.....

Silvercord
07-19-2003, 01:04 PM
American politics and peoples idelogy some how amazes me.... First they said they are right.. now the same people say we had no business going there.....


No offense but if you are serious, that is a blatantly stupid comment. The United States has always been divided over the Iraq war. The rest of the world (myself included) had the attitude "Just gather more evidence, then we'll support you", and we've been saying the same thing this whole damn time.

ZakkWylde969
07-19-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by vasanth
hmm.. a 360 degree turn would be the same point from where you started...



American politics and peoples idelogy some how amazes me.... First they said they are right.. now the same people say we had no business going there.....


Hmm good point. I was going for you would completely turn around on your ideas. What new computer laws are there? I haven't heard about those.

Oh and Silvercord. The more time you try to find evidence of WMD the more time he has to hide them. Do you really thinkg a group of 15 to 20 people scouring and entire country for something that can be moved easily will have a chance at finding something? Anyone else notice that one time in a speech when Bush said something like the CIA was "darn good"? It was pretty funny.

mart_man00
07-19-2003, 01:30 PM
the new computers laws are practicaly design to but nerds behind bars and help the big companies.

normally helping companies is a good think, they give people jobs. but now we need to declare war one them..

p2p to be a fellony, cant release security info in the us, cant play.

this why i hate bush, but then again i cant stand anyone one else. heck with a new president, i want a new revolution.

i do like the sounds of "if hes elected im moving", thats one of the reason why i want him to win :D to bad their the cowards that wont do anything. maybe he will be smart and say theres a draft, then they will all run with their mommies to canada so we can start up the canandian wall.

now im confused, maybe i do want bush and only bush......

ZakkWylde969
07-19-2003, 01:48 PM
Oh I just found something that helps me support Bushes desision to go to war with Iraq. I find tis to be interesting.


http://www.snopes.com/rumors/mural.php

Cheeze-It
07-19-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by ZakkWylde969
Oh I just found something that helps me support Bushes desision to go to war with Iraq. I find tis to be interesting.


http://www.snopes.com/rumors/mural.php

It's a painting. :rolleyes:

You know, maybe we should go bomb Tom Clancy's house, too..

http://www.worldpaper.com/terrorism/clancy.html

ZakkWylde969
07-19-2003, 02:18 PM
Ah yes but that mural was found in an Iraq military base. Quite different than an author known for his books and the games based off his books (Rainbow 6). one is coincidece the other is a mural celebrating the death of thousands of innocents found in a goverment building of Iraq.

Clyde
07-19-2003, 02:25 PM
how many billions do we just blow away every year? most of its isnt even for the us, what is for the us is often wasted.

schools are one, they throw in more and more money(or they beg for it) and they never fix it. the problem changes from school to school. more and more it seems to be the teachers and they say it because they dont have alot of money.

this is very messed up.


Just out of interest, where do you get this stuff?



Oh I just found something that helps me support Bushes desision to go to war with Iraq. I find tis to be interesting.


http://www.snopes.com/rumors/mural.php


..... how does that support anything?

Silvercord
07-19-2003, 02:27 PM
Do you really thinkg a group of 15 to 20 people scouring and entire country for something that can be moved easily will have a chance at finding something?


Because, you know, when the inspectors can't find anything it's definitely a good idea for the president to declare war on the country they're inspecting instead of sending more inspectors over. Good thinking.

So to clarify:
No evidence = more reason to declare war, because you are giving them too much time to hide what you can't prove exists? I'll write that down in my Handy Dandy Notebook!

Zach L.
07-19-2003, 02:30 PM
>> Ah yes but that mural was found in an Iraq military base. Quite different than an author known for his books and the games based off his books (Rainbow 6). one is coincidece the other is a mural celebrating the death of thousands of innocents found in a goverment building of Iraq.

A rather dispicable painting indeed. Truly aweful, and in extremely poor taste. It is, however, a piece of art, not a reason to go to war.

>> No evidence = more reason to declare war. I'll write that down in my notebook. And this is because you are giving them too much time to hide what you can't prove exists? I'll write that one down too.

Of course... double-speak (I think thats what they called it in 1984)... makes perfect non-sense.

mart_man00
07-19-2003, 02:30 PM
Just out of interest, where do you get this stuff?
you can hear about where we give our money away anywhere.

schools are easier, im in one. plus the news.


why? problem?

ZakkWylde969
07-19-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Silvercord
Because, you know, when the inspectors can't find anything it's definitely a good idea for the president to declare war on the country they're inspecting instead of sending more inspectors over. Good thinking.

So to clarify:
No evidence = more reason to declare war, because you are giving them too much time to hide what you can't prove exists? I'll write that down in my Handy Dandy Notebook!

You really believe there was NO evidence at all? Thats absurd to say that we had no reason and no evidence at all for taking down Saddam. While you take the tin foil off your head are you also going to tell me Osama wasn't a terrorist and wasn't involved in the World Trade Center bombings?

mart_man00
07-19-2003, 02:32 PM
its not proof of anything, but its not a goos sign either. its a reason to look into it more.

mart_man00
07-19-2003, 02:36 PM
we dont need to find anything! we already have more than enough to go in. look at all he has broken, there was a loop hole for us to go in from their.

we didnt need much to look for anything, we had a reason to be in there. plus there enough showing he could of and wanted to.

he played the odds and a had a good excuse todo it.

ZakkWylde969
07-19-2003, 02:44 PM
And let me comment real fast on the whole not finding them issues. Look around the room you are in. Look at EVERYTHING. Do you see atoms? Do you see the air? Do you see definate proof that god exists? No. My point of this is this. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Zach L.
07-19-2003, 02:46 PM
Wow... congratulations on coming up with the weakest possible argument.

Philosophy aside, we can say that the weapons exist if we see them. We don't see them. Why don't we attack Fiji for weapons we don't see over there while we're at it.

(Note: I've got nothing against Fiji. ;) )

ZakkWylde969
07-19-2003, 04:17 PM
I think that is a rather strong argument. What is your religion? Have you seen your god? How do you know he exists? That is a strong argument if you open your mind to things. I just take it you are the type of people who have to see it to believe it. (Not a bad thing at all just a personality type) and I am more of someone who just uses what he knows and assumes. No one is going to win this argument.

mart_man00
07-19-2003, 04:20 PM
ZakkWylde969, right idea but bad way of putting it.

ZakkWylde969
07-19-2003, 04:22 PM
My talking skills suck. Feel free to explain to them what I mean if you want.

Eibro
07-19-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by mart_man00
ZakkWylde969, right idea but bad way of putting it. This coming from the master himself :rolleyes:

ZakkWylde969
07-19-2003, 04:53 PM
At least I'm on the right track. ;) (god that wink smily sucks..))

mart_man00
07-19-2003, 05:23 PM
This coming from the master himself
true, i often forget that im talking to (mostly) pinkos.

Clyde
07-19-2003, 05:32 PM
Jesus Christ if i see this INANE argument presented one more time I swear my head is going to explode.

LISTEN CRETINS, if there is absolutely no evidence for something THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO BELEIVE ITS TRUE.

I do not believe there is a floating invisible kangaroo hovering over my head because there is no evidence to suggest his existence.

No, i can't prove he doesn't exist, yes its true he "might" exist despite the fact that there is no evidence, none the less you still have to be clinically insane to believe in him.

This is why they need to teach people how to think from an early age because clearly if you leave people alone they fail to develop reasoning skills.

Arguing that the lack of evidence for WMDS in Iraq doesn't matter on the grounds that evidence doesn't really mean anything anyway is worse than just a weak argument, its bloody idiotic.


A much better argument would be the one Blair used when he addressed congress, which was something along the lines of saying if the US/UK are wrong they've eliminated a monster and history will forgive them, if they're right (and you could argue there is a certain amount of cirumstantial evidence supporting the 'Iraq was developing/had WMDs hypothesis') then they've done the world a great favour.

Brian
07-19-2003, 06:03 PM
If they wanted to do the world a favour, they should have killed him in the first war, when they were fully capable of doing so. They let him kill many more people by leaving him in power.

mart_man00
07-19-2003, 06:13 PM
yeah, i hate that too. but thats what you get from out lawing assassinations. one bullet could of solved everything.

gcn_zelda
07-19-2003, 07:43 PM
yeah, i hate that too. but thats what you get from out lawing assassinations. one bullet could of solved everything.

But if asassinations were legal, half of the people in the country would be dead right now...and sometimes, that's not so bad :P

Unregd
07-19-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by mart_man00
yeah, i hate that too. but thats what you get from out lawing assassinations. one bullet could of solved everything.

Or nothing. If Saddam Hussein were assassinated, his son or some other like-minded person would assume power in Iraq. In retrospect, it might have been best to have removed Saddam from power in 1991, but the same problems as now are implicit. The best method would have been for the United States to back rebels in Iraq, preferably with UN sanction. In this way, the U.S. would only play a supporting role in the Iraqis' own quest for self-government. Unfortunately, the U.S. missed its chance to do this, and many Kurds were massacred because of it.

You can see the folly in our current situation. Running water, electricity, and other necessities are hard to come by in Baghdad after the bombings, and infrastructure repair has been slow to come. This has alienated many Iraqis from us and only fuels support for Saddam and anti-American groups in Iraq and the rest of the Islamic world. While this is happening, Americans are continuing to call the shots in Iraq, and our government has been selling off Iraq's resources to the sole profit of U.S. corporations and not the Iraqi people (An interesting article in a recent issue of The Nation http://www.thenation.com/ has more details in which contracts were awarded to whom).

I truly believe evidence, or a lack thereof, for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is very important to the credibility of the Bush administration, which is already low for many. President Bush appealed his case to the American public mainly on this argument. If Americans were to see this war as a means for Bush to continue his popularity and to reward his business associates, they would be much more demanding. At home, we're seeing a continuing loss of civil liberties in the name of national security. If only there were an opposition majority in both houses of Congress to put an end to this madness.

gcn_zelda
07-19-2003, 08:01 PM
My Opinions

Bush is doing what he can.
Gore would have done the same thing.
I'm only thirteen so I'm not the most knowledgable about political issues
Tree-huggers rule!

mart_man00
07-19-2003, 09:00 PM
Tree-huggers rule!
they should be shot.

Silvercord
07-19-2003, 09:49 PM
zakk your opinions suck, stop saying them

close this thread it's pointless i should be executed in the woods for starting it.

HybridM
07-20-2003, 03:19 AM
Before it is closed I just want to add my view.

Basically I'm not going to say anything about the war (I always disagreed with that). The real thing that I have a problem with is the lying that went on.
The US knew there were no WMDs. The thing that annoys me most is that no one can punish the US for lying, so they've won, and they'll do it again, too.

RoD
07-20-2003, 09:40 AM
Sorry for my absense, went canoeing and drinking last nite.

Anyway, i dont think any president would have done the same thing, and here is why. The real reason we went into Iraq isnt weapons, its partly oil, but the big picture is bush placed a large amount of the September 11th blame on Saddam. Which is crap. A real, AMERICAN president, would have takn out Osama during midnight of September 11th/12th and taken care of it then, instead of a scapegoat a year and a half later.

He wasted his free war card and caused our people to die, impeach his ass.

Zach L.
07-20-2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by ZakkWylde969
I think that is a rather strong argument. What is your religion? Have you seen your god? How do you know he exists? That is a strong argument if you open your mind to things. I just take it you are the type of people who have to see it to believe it. (Not a bad thing at all just a personality type) and I am more of someone who just uses what he knows and assumes. No one is going to win this argument.

Well Zakk, I'm an atheist, so your point still doesn't work. Instead of continuing this line, I'll just refer you to Clyde's post (well put ;) ).

Anyways, what bothers me the most about the whole situation is that the US managed to go about it in a way as to take the teeth out of the UN.

HybridM
07-20-2003, 11:04 AM
If humans didn't make stupid assumptions and conclusions to make up for lack of knowledge there'd be no religion at all, and the world would be a better place.