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Xei
05-15-2003, 10:01 PM
Warning: If you have not watched the matrix, this thread may spoil some information about it to you, so you may not wish to continue reading.
I just finished watching Matrix Reloaded. Now, the ending makes no sense. How could Neo possibly kill sentinels in the 'real world'. This is what I think is going on: The Architect, and the Oracle are security applications, they attempt to influence Neo to do certain things. Why would the agent(s) appear after the Oracle left? Why would the Architect want Neo to select people to start the Matrix over again for? This, I believe, is the answer: They are still in The Matrix. There is a Matrix in the Matrix. I believe that Zion does exist, but everyone is still plugged in. I am also wondering about the other survivor, the guy who wanted to kill Neo but decided not to. They are both in comas, and they both lived through separate Sentinals' attacks; which may mean that they both have the same power in this second-level matrix, so they will eventually have to vs eachother, or else cooperate with eachother, I don't know. Anyways, what do you guys(or girls) think? Do you believe my hypothesis to be correct? (cause really, how could he have power in the real world, Neo did say "No, I can feel them." near the end. Or, perhaps, there is still only one matrix, but Neo is given the Illusion that he is 'out' of the matrix after he went through the door on the left). I do not believe that there have been more than one Neo, but that the Architect is there to 'try' to make Neo believe that there is no way out (that all he is is just another program) - so that the sentinals will be able to take over zion. However, if my first hypothesis is correct (there being 2 matrix's) then that'll mean that in the end of the 3rd Matrix it will all be chaos, and everyone will be 'removed' from the matrix again(through that goop and stuff); this would make sense because the machines can only create 1 matrix based upon real life, and another based to keep them in the matrix, even if they 'think' they got out. Tell me what you think.

BTW, I think that the Oracle may be bad because she said that Neo would have to accept (Trinitys death, more or less) or "Zion will fall". Yet Neo decided to not accept her death, and he brought her back to life (if ofcourse that really happend, perhaps the door to the left is lies, maybe Trinity never really did die. Maybe they are trying to keep Neo in the matrix to give them time to take over Zion). In any case, Neo went against what the Oracle said, but then again, The Architect didn't seem to like the Oracle very much either.

What would really make me mad, is that at the end of the 3rd Matrix, Neo wakes up from bed and is in the 'original' world created by the AI.

Terrance
05-15-2003, 10:28 PM
You gave away the ending... I don't care, I already saw it :)

Scourfish
05-15-2003, 11:25 PM
Stay for the 5 minutes of credits to finish; there's a trailer for Revolution.

LuckY
05-16-2003, 09:02 AM
You gave away the ending...That's a good point. This thread should be prefaced with the fact that it's full of spoilers, as not to ruin it for those who haven't seen it..

I'm surprised, but glad to see someone else with the same hypothesis that I have. I believe there to be two possibilities:
1) Neo really does have powers in the "real" world (unlikely)
2) They are indeed inside a matrix that lies without the original matrix (where Neo came from in part one)

To be quite honest, I didn't follow a lot of what was said in the movie. I actually like that I have to go back a few more times to watch it to try to really comprehend it. I don't get all the Oracle said and I didn't understand all of what the Architect said, nor do I follow the reasoning for the things the Architect said that I did understand. For example, why in the world would the machines want to kill everyone in the matrix every once in a while only to start again? Why in the devil would they kill everyone in Zion except enough people to respawn their city? They want to destroy humans. Why wouldn't they just destroy them all and be done with it? I don't understand the reasoning behind the machines restarting the matrix over again when it is running perfectly fine with billions of batteries clueless. I also didn't quite follow what he was saying about some woman program that did testing where 99.9% of the people accepted the programming. Hopefully I'll get that when I go back tomorrow.
Back to the Squidies... I was in a state of shock n awe when I saw that part; "Something's different... I can feel them..." HOLY SHIITE MUSLIM that was insane! My immediate thought was IT'S NOT THE REAL WORLD!
One thing I must point out to you, Xei, is about the "guy who wanted to kill Neo but decided not to." He did not survive the Sentinel attack because he has Neos power. It appears you didn't recognize him as the guy that Agent Smith entered at the beginning of the movie. He in fact is the one who prematurely activated the EMP to get everyone else slaughtered. They will not eventually cooperate with one another because it is Agent Smith Neo would be cooperating with... !!!
I just had another thought about that.. How could Agent Smith infect a persons code in the Matrix and then remain part of him when he exits back into the "real" world? I'm thinking that Smith inserted himself along with some kind of a virus into that guy's code in the matrix and thus into his body back in the real world. But when you think about it, how could he insert a program into a real person in the real world? It didn't make sense to me when it happened, but I just accepted it for its face value. But now it makes more sense that perhaps the only way that is possible is that the real body in the real world that accepted Agent Smith's virus is in fact NOT in the real world, but within another matrix...

Aside from my theories and questions (of which I have many), I just wanted to insert my opinion... IT EFFING OWNS. The movie blew me away... I love it I love it I love it! It is really more than I was hoping for... Now I just have to countdown the seconds to November 15. Damn.

LuckY
05-16-2003, 09:19 AM
Now hold on a second here... I just had another thought. If in fact they are within another matrix in their "real" world, that would mean the millions of machines are also in that matrix. Why oh why would the machines in the real world matrix go and kill all the people in Zion???

Ay ay ay... This is really baking my noodle.

HybridM
05-17-2003, 05:56 AM

Anyway, as i understand it, Xion and The One are the way in which the machines regulate the matrix, and keep it stable. From The Architect's speech, i gathered that The Oracle was the one who figured out how to keep the matrix stable in this way. The One arises from left over 'stuff' from the imperfections in the program, which must exist in order for Humans to accept it. And in turn, in order for this to work, all people in Xion must be killed, including the current One (though the One may die naturally?) thus allowing the cycle to repeat. That said, i'm not sure if the past 6 cycles have included Agent Smith, who is now a rogue program.

However, i don't know what to make of Neo stopping those sentinels, i too thought perhaps the 'real world' is another matrix. I guess we wait until November!

EDIT: But if the 'real world' is another Matrix, why isn't Neo already 'awake'?

EDIT2: I guess he's not because he accepts it to be real...lol
I'm having a discussion with myself :-/

Speedy5
05-17-2003, 08:32 AM
The guy laying down beside Neo at the end is Agent Smith! Remember in the begining of the movie where he was with another good-agent and Smith attacked? Well when he picked up the phone, Agent Smith transferred himself into him or something like that. He made a clone of himself in him. Thats why he wanted to kill Neo. And thats why he triggered the EMP early to help destroy Zion. That's my theory.

BTW, that movie was awesome!!!

vasanth
05-17-2003, 08:49 AM
Does any one know a site where the story line of the move is available....

RoD
05-17-2003, 09:21 AM
after the mod warning i read none of these posts, but if i understand the original implied question (implied by the topic name) then yes, there will be a third. They made reloaded too long and decided to split it into 2 movies, the second of which will be released in the next 3 - 6 months.

-KEN-
05-17-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by RoD
after the mod warning i read none of these posts, but if i understand the original implied question (implied by the topic name) then yes, there will be a third. They made reloaded too long and decided to split it into 2 movies, the second of which will be released in the next 3 - 6 months.

Hey, look at that, you're wrong.

Maybe they're in some other matrix, but I don't think so...maybe somehow doing what he did (disobeying the architect, using the other door) gave hime some power over the machines that the matrix controls?

TravisS
05-17-2003, 03:59 PM
I'm thinking there is a 3 level matrix... you know, a "real" real world, the real world the the "unplugged" people live in, and finally the real world as viewed by 99.9% of the human population.

If the "unplugged" real world is indeed another matrix, destroying it is at no loss for the machines. Since it is a program within itself, the machines lose nothing. Kinda like rebooting your computer... while your programs may shut down for a bit, when it gets restarted you're starting over fresh.

I have no idea if that made sense to any body, but then again that would fit in perfectly with the movie itself.

ygfperson
05-17-2003, 07:38 PM
Or maybe Neo just did that action at the same time that that other person triggered the EMP.

Eibro
05-17-2003, 08:09 PM
I for one believe that they're still in the matrix, that there's still another level of abstraction they must overcome. Think about it, at the beginning of the first matrix, Neo didn't have any of the powers he does now (inside the matrix) eg. run fast, dodge bullets. When he tried to jump the buildings, he didn't make it. It was only after he started believing he could do it that he was able to. Well, at the end of the matrix: reloaded, he started 'believing' once again (perhaps he started feeling as he did when he encountered the first matrix, hence the "I can feel them" or whatever) and this is why he was able to stop the sentinels.

Anyhow, I get the impression that there's at least one more matrix (read: infinite loop?) I mean; if it's all programmed what's stopping infinite levels of abstraction? (matrices) The way I see it, they can unplug and reach the next 'level' forever... with each progression, they're just as far as they were beforehand. Perhaps they need to shut the matrix down from within... or something like that.

Well, I JUST got back from the movie, and that's how I interpreted it.

LuckY
05-17-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by RoD
They made reloaded too long and decided to split it into 2 movies, the second of which will be released in the next 3 - 6 months. I love it when people post things as fact when they are everything but. Actually Rod, they didn't make Reloaded too long (5 hours instead of 2) and decide to make it two movies. They wrote two scripts and just shot them simultaneously. Do you also think that the Lord of the Rings was supposed to be one movie but they accidentally made it 9 hours long and decided to cut it into 3 parts? :) hehe..

I just got home from watching it a second time. I didn't know there was a trailer for Matrix: Revolutions after the 10 minutes of credits, but I stayed for it this time and loved it... I'm so depressed I have to wait till November to see it!!!

Hey HybridM, thanks for your post... You totally cleared up a LOT of what I didn't understand about what the Architect said... Of course it all isn't clear to me (yet?), but it really helps... You said you thought the Oracle was the one to figure out how all that worked, but when Neo mentioned her name the Architect replied in a maybe insulted tone, "Please." I am still unclear about why everyone in Zion would have to die... For that matter, whey would everyone in the matrix have to die? If all the "left over" stuff gets reborn into The One, why don't they just kill him?

Ay ay ay... Still so many questions left unanswered...

HybridM
05-18-2003, 12:09 AM
But if the real world is just another matrix, why don't the machines just unplug all the people who are in 'level 2' matrix once they have served their purpose?

The Architect was insulted because his past programs were works of art, perfection, and yet they didn't work. And now he has to live with the imperfect system the Oracle developed.

I really want to see this movie again.
When i saw it i saw it with idiots with laser pointers, and two girls giggling the whole time behind me!! I still managed to pick up more than most, but still...

major_small
05-18-2003, 07:40 PM
the first matrix is the real matrix, but like the 'programmer' said, there is a small percent of people who won't accept the matrix. Neo is that small percent.

the second matrix (outside the first matrix) contains zion, the sentinals, the oracle, and the agent's controller.

zion is a city started by neo (as said by the programmer) to act as both an overflow buffer in case people escape from the matrix.

zion had to be started so that the oracle can start the prophecies, which will start the people searching for neo.

once neo is found, the programmer (outside the second matrix, with a pointer inside the first matrix) gets him into his little room thing and sends the sentianals to clear the buffer and start again.

if neo goes through the door to start again, they take his personality and tweak the matrix to make it acceptable to him (100% of people)

neo could kill the sentinals because he is awakening from the second matrix. i think the guy that tried to kill neo (on the bed at the end) is also controlled from out there, like the agents are controlled by something in the second matrix (i'm guessing here).

on the outside of all matrices, nobody really knows what's happening... maybe earth isnt' controlled by machines at all... maybe it's a new hitler or some kind of scientific experiment... maybe it's just some computer program that's being written...

that brings me to my very far-reaching idea: maybe the matrix is recursive: somebody writes a matrix, and somebody in that matrix writes another matrix...

Xei
05-19-2003, 02:45 PM
You may be correct. My friend just gave me another idea though, you remember how Neo would be forced to select individuals to re-start Zion if he went through the door to his right? and that Zion had been destroyed 5 times, and that they had become increasingly efficient in doing it? Then remember Neo asking the counsellor "Is that why there are only elderly people on the counsel?" then the counsellor said "Good Point", but did not answer his question. Perhaps Zion has been destroyed many times in the real world(and this is why the counsel wanted the Nebbechznnezer, or whatever, to be escorted by 2 ships), Neo also said to the Architect "Either nobody told me, or noone knows." but then how would the sentinals be able to tell the difference between the people who he chose to live? But then that comes to fate, where the Architect says "Your mind has already been made up" and same with the Oracle saying that with "You just have to understand why you made that decision", but then the Architect said things like the Oracle being one who programmed the matrix to accept the biological/psychological make-up of the humans or something like that. But if it is the real world then that wouldn't explain how Neo had powers in the real world.... so thats just weird. Anyways, I saw it again last night and waited for the trailor after the credits, it was too short.

major_small
05-19-2003, 07:15 PM
I think the cousil is killed with the rest of zion... they are just replaced with new people every time the matrices are restarted...

i think the people the sentinals can't kill are protected... idk.. i've come to think of the first matrix of a sort of function/struct with pointers only, the second matrix a class with that function/struct in it, holding mostly pointers and some functions (like the oracle), and outside that the real world... if you want to call it the main(), with only the programmer and the real people, where neo is awakening to...

Jeremy G
05-19-2003, 08:14 PM
How do you people not follow whats going on for heavens sake!! UGGYHHHHHHH.

Ok, granted I saw matrix reloaded 3 times in 4 days, but still. Ok im gonna help ya'll out.

1.) Agent Smith has always been around since the 1st of 6 cycles. Listen to things he says "Its happening just like before" is an exact quote after neo flys away from the meeting place talking about what to do -- wait for message from oracle or not..

2.) The guy laying in the bed next to neo at the end is indeed agent smith. How is it possible? Etc. etc. Its already been established that effects in the matrix are carried over to the real world via your mind actually believes it. That explains how physical activities hurt you in real world. Agent smith COPIES himself into the guy near the begginning of the movie and gets sucked back into reality which is too possible as in the matrix the code represents conciousness. It was explained in matrix one that when an agent takes over a body the host dies becuase the conciousness is replaced with agent program.

3.) THEY ARE IN THE REAL WORLD at the end. Your asking then how can he control the sentinals? THINK BACK IN THE MOVIE when neo has his one on one chat with smith. Smith said "Something of you copied into me..." which explains how smith has become "freed" and has new copying ability. SEVERAL SEVERAL parts of the movie smith says "we are connected" to neo. and they are. So the solution is obvious, Neo has control over the sentinals THROUGH the SMITH agent in REALITY which is connected to the matrix. Its very abstract, but it works out. This also leads to a resolution possibility. The only difference between this 6th matrix and the ones before it is SMITHS freedom, which will in the end lead to zions salvation and the end of the matrix.

Xei
05-19-2003, 08:28 PM
>>Neo has control over the sentinals THROUGH the SMITH agent in REALITY which is connected to the matrix

That is a possibility, but... that would mean that the Matrix could somehow sense Neo's thought process of some kind(through brain waves or something), which wouldn't make sense in the reality 'realm'. Also, now that an instance of the Smith program is in a human in the real 'realm' then he should also not be able to communicate with The Matrix without being connected to it(if he could then why would they bother connecting people physically to the matrix?)

TravisS
05-19-2003, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by dbgt goten
3.) THEY ARE IN THE REAL WORLD at the end. Your asking then how can he control the sentinals? THINK BACK IN THE MOVIE when neo has his one on one chat with smith. Smith said "Something of you copied into me..." which explains how smith has become "freed" and has new copying ability. SEVERAL SEVERAL parts of the movie smith says "we are connected" to neo. and they are. So the solution is obvious, Neo has control over the sentinals THROUGH the SMITH agent in REALITY which is connected to the matrix. Its very abstract, but it works out. This also leads to a resolution possibility. The only difference between this 6th matrix and the ones before it is SMITHS freedom, which will in the end lead to zions salvation and the end of the matrix.

Hmmm, I like that. I wasn't really sure how them being connected had to do with the movie. Makes sense to me :)

LuckY
05-19-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by dbgt goten
It was explained in matrix one that when an agent takes over a body the host dies becuase the conciousness is replaced with agent program.

THEY ARE IN THE REAL WORLD at the end.I am starting to think the things you're saying are correct... After extensive analysis and deep thought, I feel there truly is only one matrix.

About the quotes above, a) it was not explained that a person dies once an agent enters their body; if you really think so, please quote the line because it never happened b) as I said, I think they are in the real world at the end, but your explanation may not be the complete answer as to why; after they "shared" each other's code in part one Neo has been in and out of the matrix perhaps a hundred times, but it is only at the end of Reloaded that "something's different" and he "can feel them." While your reason sounds plausible it does not explain why all of a sudden things changed. It's got to have something to do with the specific events that happened before that last jack out, I'd wager...

Xei:
The architect told Neo to pick 23 people from the matrix to repopulate Zion, not 23 people from Zion. Just as the Architect said, the cycle has happened 5 times before, it happened with the One that Morpheus told Neo about in part one. That One freed the first 23 people from the matrix and then he died and those 23 went on to make babies and free other minds for years and years until Neo was found so he can start the process over again.

It is very hard to figure out just by listening to the Architect's fast "big word" talk in the movie. What helped me was reading the transcript of their conversation. I'll paste it here in case anyone else is interested:

The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You
have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain
irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you
will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may
not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to
the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my
sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of
mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not
unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably,
here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Others? What others? How

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of
one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Five versions? Three?
I've been lied too. This is bull\$\$\$\$.

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic,
creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: You can't
control me! \$\$\$\$ you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art,
flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its
doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every
human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the
varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have
since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or
perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled
upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the
human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly
99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even
if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer
functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory
systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that
refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating
probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living
inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bull\$\$\$\$.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Bull\$\$\$\$!

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured,
this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient
at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a
temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which
you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild
Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing
everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will
ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the
relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of
every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all
over the matrix appear on the monitors*

design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a
profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While
the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific.
Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental
flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There
are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The
door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you
adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do,
don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the
onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is
already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is
nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.

Jeremy G
05-19-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by LuckY
Neo has been in and out of the matrix perhaps a hundred times, but it is only at the end of Reloaded that "something's different" and he "can feel them." While your reason sounds plausible it does not explain why all of a sudden things changed. It's got to have something to do with the specific events that happened before that last jack out, I'd wager...

Smith hadnt escaped the matrix yet. Infact he doesnt escape until the nebercanezzer (SP) docs to recharge--the oracle finaly gets word to the crew that stayed behind, and during their leaving of the matrix, SMITH inserts himself into the body. Then neo hops into the matrix to speek with the oracle and fights the smith scene (where neo almost gets replaced by smiths copy process). He comes out of the matrix just after that scene but theres no mention of feeling the sentinals. Scince Morpheus experianced the same copy process but doesnt not (or is not shown to) posses the new power i assume that has nothing to do with it. I surmise the Power to control the sentinals only comes directly after smith escapes into reality--but isnt recognized due to lack of proximaty. Afterall, as soon as neo speeks with the oracle nothing is slow moving, things start picking up in pace so I dont he spent much time in real world after the battle with smith, he probably jacked in not long after.

It was brought up in a post how could neo control sentinals through smith through the matrix -- if that were possible they wouldnt need to jack in. Your right. I cant explain that. But I am sure that neos control has explicitly to do with his connection to smith.

LuckY
05-20-2003, 08:32 AM
Here is some more food for thought. I'd like to know your opinion about this: On the freeway, the agents said that the rebels were unimportant and that the exile (the Keymaker) was the important one. Now the Keymaker was integral to the path of The One making his way to meet with the Architect and possibly enter the Source. Had the agents acquired and deleted the Keymaker, Neo would never had made it to the bright door. Right? That in mind, if the Architect did in fact want The One to get to him so that they could reload the matrix after wiping out Zion, why would he allow the agents to attempt to delete the Keymaker? The Architect told Neo that the function of The One was to enter the source and have his code disseminated. How could this possibly be true if he allowed the agents to try to destroy the only possible means of The One to ever reach the source?

major_small
05-20-2003, 07:21 PM
the agents weren't trying to delete him... only the dead programs... they don't want to be completely deleted either... they have free reign in the matrix as long as it's alive because they weren't properly deleted...

LuckY
05-20-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by major_small
the agents weren't trying to delete him... I beg to differ. After Morpheus fell onto Niobe's car and the agent had the Keymaker alone, he actually said verbatim, "You are meant for one more thing: deletion." I'm sure you recall...

Jeremy G
05-21-2003, 01:06 AM
Its all about playing the part. To keep things from seeming suspicious it must be seen that they system doesnt want the key maker in the humans hands.

PJYelton
05-21-2003, 08:47 AM
I don't buy that. The only way that would be true would be if they knew exactly what was going to happen next at all times. How were they to know that Morpheus would be able to come back up on the truck to save the key maker at the last second, or that Neo would be able to fly in and save them a split second before the trucks exploded? If these things didn't happen would they suddenly contrive some reason to not kill the keymaker themselves? I agree with you Lucky, it doesn't make sense and I fear that to make the movie exciting they are just going to gloss over that point since after all it would be a boring movie if the main characters are never in danger.

Also, another part that confuses me is this: why did the architect seemingly goad Neo into picking the wrong door? Why even show him two doors, why not just one? Why tell him that Trinity was about to die? He seems to want him to pick the door which will destroy the matrix.

major_small
05-21-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by LuckY
I beg to differ. After Morpheus fell onto Niobe's car and the agent had the Keymaker alone, he actually said verbatim, "You are meant for one more thing: deletion." I'm sure you recall... now i remember that... but that wasn't an agent... that was mr. smith...

LuckY
05-21-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by major_small
now i remember that... but that wasn't an agent... that was mr. smith... I think it's time for you to go see the movie again, major. That was an agent. One of the two that were on the freeway chasing the exile. First they were in a police car and last they were in opposing big rigs aiming for each other.
Also, another part that confuses me is this: why did the architect seemingly goad Neo into picking the wrong door? Why even show him two doors, why not just one? Why tell him that Trinity was about to die? He seems to want him to pick the door which will destroy the matrix.I know exactly what you mean... This is the same conclusion I have come to. I believe that it is exactly what the Architect did with the last five Ones. Saying, "Hey I really want you to go over here, but if you want to go over there, go ahead because we're willing to accept a certain standard of life," is beyond ridiculous when you're thinking about it logically. They did all kinds of research on humans and expected The One to just say, "Eh, I'm not even going to try to fight and I'm not going to save the woman I love. I'll just go kill everyone like you want." Puh-lease. My theory states that if he had gone into the door leading to the source, perhaps he would have been able to take "control" of the matrix or something of that sort. If the Oracle is in fact helping the humans, then her saying that the path of The One ends at the source could have been correct.

kermi3
05-22-2003, 12:23 AM
The architect had to show him the new door. That was the fatal flaw in the program: Choice. Neo had to be able to choose. If he hadn't been able to choose then there would have been no flaw in the program at all.

I just saw the film and I was very impressed by it. My biggest concern going in was that the film would not be able to keep up with the origanal's philosophical and nearly religious edge. However, my hopes were unwarrented. The film maintaned the psycological, philosophical, and nearly religious twist that the first Matrix contained while at the same time delivering killer effects. Great film.

RoD
05-22-2003, 04:23 AM
ive been seeing previews for a new matrix video game the last two days, will this be on pc also?

Clyde
05-22-2003, 06:04 AM
One thing i want to know, if Neo has been born six times and lived six lives how can he be human?

LuckY
05-22-2003, 07:12 AM
ive been seeing previews for a new matrix video game the last two days, will this be on pc also?I picked up the PC version the day it was released. It is available on all platforms (except Gameboy Advance ; )). You should definitely get it as it is a huge supplement to the movie. There is an additional hour of footage that wasn't in the film that gives you a lot more about the story and there's no other way to get it. Aside from that the gameplay is UNbelievable.
One thing i want to know, if Neo has been born six times and lived six lives how can he be human?Neo wasn't born six times. Neo is the sixth One to be born inside the matrix. The way it works, the way the Architect explained, is that the only way they could get the matrix to work was to get it where 99.9% of the people accepted the program (by giving them a choice, even if it is on a near unconscious level). Thereby creating a fundamental flaw in the system itself which after time sort of collects and gets larger and larger until The One is born and that "special" code that gathered is intrinsic to his code in the matrix. At least that's the way I interpreted it, but am open to other hypotheses.

kermi3
05-22-2003, 07:25 AM
One thing i want to know, if Neo has been born six times and lived six lives how can he be human?

Two reasons:

One reason for this is the strong links the film to christian mythology/theology. It especially links Jesus and Neo. There is a lot of evidence for this - but I don't want to turn this into a religious thread so I will give you the other plot based reason...

Neo hasn't been born 6 times. "One like him" has. That is the flaw. 1% of people born have a choice. And cyclically "The One" is born. The One rejects the matrix more than others and ends up with the Architech and has to make a choice. Right door or left door (A choice that resonates red or blue pill...but anyway...). If he chooses the right door he reinsertes the code he contains. That code is the basis of the fundamental flaw - it is the code for the Matrix to produce someone like him. Then the matrix resets and he rebuilds Zion. That is The Choice that is made. Every time before him The various Ones chose that door because they didn't want to see the end of humanity. However, Neo is slightly diffrent - the program doesn't repeat perfectly and the events in the real world don't repeat perfectly - he has love for Trinity which the previous Ones haven't had. Plus he understands all of this and rejects the matrix more than others in the past. He is the first one to choose the left door. Thus he denies the matrix of its fundamental flaw in the code that it can't live without and therefore eventually the matrix will be destroyed.

Clyde
05-22-2003, 08:08 AM
"Neo wasn't born six times. Neo is the sixth One to be born inside the matrix"

Ah i see, it's just that i thought that during the scene with the architect the video screens were showing previous versions of Neo and how he had responded then. Which is why i thought each time "the one" had been Neo.

kermi3
05-22-2003, 08:15 AM
No those screens represented choice. All of the possible responses that Neo could have made were displayed on those screens. It zoomed in on the ones that he chose.

Clyde
05-22-2003, 08:26 AM
"No those screens represented choice. All of the possible responses that Neo could have made were displayed on those screens. It zoomed in on the ones that he chose"

Right, ok that makes sense.

Another question, do people in the matrix have choice or the illusion of choice?

The architect seemed to be saying that people had real genuine choice, but the scene with the French guy seemed to me to suggest that people didn't have any real choice at all they just thought they did.

kermi3
05-22-2003, 08:57 AM
Both. The people had choice on whether or not to choose the matrix or not - on a subconscious level. 99% accepted. 1% like Neo and Morpheous rejected it. The architect said people had choice to choose or reject the matrix. However those into the matrix were controlled by the programming/code of the matrix according to the French guy. What the French guy didn't account for however was that Neo wasn't controlled bu the matrix. He had chosen to reject it.

But another important part here is that the choices didn't matter. They don't matter. They were part of the machine. This is why neo has no guilt killing them when nessicary. They are simply part of the machine. It relates back to the councilmans discussion about the machines in Zion. The people/programs whose choices mattered were the rougues. The people who chose to reject the matrix and the programs who chose to reject its rules by not being deleted.

LuckY
05-22-2003, 09:24 AM
However, Neo is slightly diffrent - the program doesn't repeat perfectly and the events in the real world don't repeat perfectly - he has love for Trinity which the previous Ones haven't had.Something else is well worth noting: The main difference between Neo and the previous Ones is the one pointed out by Agent Smith "Everything is happening like before" "Not exactly." The main difference is that Agent Smith has unprecedented power because of the bits of code that he and Neo exchanged. I believe that he is the only reason that the cycle will not repeat this time as it did 5 times before.

No those screens represented choice. All of the possible responses that Neo could have made were displayed on those screens. It zoomed in on the ones that he chose.That is a very excellent explanation. I hadn't arrived at that conclusion, but I think it is brilliant (as simple as it may appear).

kermi3
05-22-2003, 09:50 AM
I remember the Agent Smith line, but not the context. Are you sure it wasn't regering to something else. Especially since I thought the Arcitech seemed to indicate that only he and the Oracel were around every time. Either way though - even with the exchange the thing that drove Neo to choose the left door was love, which the architect indicated was diffrent about Neo. Remember how the Architech explained how the chemical processes in Neo's brain were deciding that the only logical choice was to choose the right door? None of the previous Ones had had love to contend with. And without that insanely strong emotion the only logical choice is to rebuild and save humanity. However when love is part of the picture things are diffrent, so Neo chose the other door.

Of course all ove this could be pointless. The Oracle doesn't tell the truth - just what is need to be told. It is quite possible that the architect does the same. Therefore all previous Ones have actually also chosen the left door like Neo - and like Neo they had a small group of people to help them rebuild. I don't think this is likely - especially considering the final scene and they fact that this is a movie and it would suck in ratings if it ended in a cycle. But it is concievable I believe.

kermi3
05-22-2003, 10:06 AM
I am going to try and address my opinions on the first post of this thread...bear with me if I make no sense, it's just my take...

Ok first of all there is a matrix within the matrix - but it isn't what you think it is. The Matrix in the matrix is the interdependance between man and machine in the real world as described by the Councilman. The outer matrix also includes the real world. Another example is how the Architect sets up the rebuilding of Zion every time. He has to. Without it the fatal yet critical flaw in his programming cannot exsist. Neo describes Zion and the legend of the One as just another layer of control. I agree with this. However why does the control have to be in the matrix? The architect is instead manipulating people in the real world to ensure that they don't win the fight, while at the same time continually recycling the critical flaw back into the program.

Now - as to Neo having powers in the real world. I think this is possible. Remember Neo has all kinds of implants and machines within him. If he has chosen (subconciously) to be aware of this then why couldn't be have some real world powers - especially like those he displayed. As far as I could tell he just let loose a bunch of electricity. This could be in the real world - just surging the machines in side of himself for example.

An outer matrix is possible I suppose the more I think about it - one to keep the inner one stable. But I think it could be fesable in the Matrix as well. However - if the real world is an outer matrix then Neo knows it and therefore can take it apart. I think it is also possible that it isn't.

I think the more important message though once again goes back to the councilman on the engineering deck. Machines and people are in a matrix no matter how you look at it. They need us and we need them.

RoD
05-22-2003, 11:53 AM
whats the exact game title?

LuckY
05-22-2003, 12:33 PM
None of the previous Ones had had love to contend with. You say that with such certainty, but how can you be so sure about that? They may each have had a love just as Neo does. Heck, previous Ones may have even been female. Consider that...
To refresh your memory about the context of that line, it was right after Neo's first fight with the three agents. The street light came crashing down and Neo flew away. Enter Agent Smith (keep in mind that up to this point, we know nothing of any other Agent Smiths) and only he is on screen when he says "It's happening just like before" then, voila, reveal a shocking surprise to the audience: a second Agent Smith responding "Not exactly." Because of the way he was revealed and the way he said that line, I am quite confident that what he was talking about is his newfound powers. Remember that Agent Smith has probably been around for all five Ones and seen them all come and go. This time it's happening just like the last five, with one exception, and that is Agent Smith's powers and abilities.. Once again, this is exactly why (and the only reason why in my estimation) that the cycle will fail to repeat a sixth time.

Rod: The title of the game is "Enter the Matrix."

RoD
05-22-2003, 12:42 PM
thank ya, im going to aquire it now ;)

LuckY
05-22-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by RoD
thank ya, im going to aquire it now ;) Cool. Good luck acquiring it. It really is very worth it.. Keep in mind that you will need 4.3gigs of free hard drive to install it ; ) Big game.

Clyde
05-22-2003, 12:46 PM
Remember that Agent Smith has probably been around for all five Ones and seen them all come and go. This time it's happening just like the last five, with one exception, and that is Agent Smith's powers and abilities.. Once again, this is exactly why (and the only reason why in my estimation) that the cycle will fail to repeat a sixth time

I don't think you're right, I suspect that Smith is merely refering to the fact that Neo is stronger than the agents as he was at the end of Matrix one.

If Smith was around for all five "ones" then he would have known he didn't stand a chance vs. Neo in Matrix 1, but he refered to Neo beating him as an impossibility (never the less one that occured).

Plus if smith knew what was going on he wouldn't be so hell bent on killing Neo because doing so would presumeably mean the end the matrix (since Neo could never meet the architect and complete the cycle) and hence the end of him.

I think it fails because of love; Neo chooses the other door because he was in love with Trinity which overides his logical thinking.

LuckY
05-22-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Clyde
I don't think you're right, I suspect that Smith is merely refering to that fact that Neo is stronger than the agents as he was at the end of Matrix one.Well it's fine with me that you disagree with me, but I really have to say that I think you're missing some important points. Why would Smith say what he said in the manner in which he said it? Without sounding too repetitive I want to stress the fact that it is quite obvious they were attempting to make the point I'm making with the revelation of the second Smith coupled with his line... Why would he say to himself out of the blue that Neo is stronger than the agents? It's not a surprise to him; Neo blew him up! He's already known for (possibly) years that Neo is stronger than the agents. Wait a second, are you saying that his line "It's happening like before" was referring to Neo beating up agents like in part one? If so, I truly think you are failing to miss the grandeur of the whole situation.
If Smith was around for all five "ones" then he would have known he couldn't kill Neo in Matrix 1, but he refered to Neo beating him as an impossibility (never the less one that occured). Smith was around for previous Ones. How would he have known he couldn't kill Neo in part one? It was referenced that Morpheus freed other people before Neo, each of whom he thought was The One, only to watch them die. As far as Smith knew, Neo wasn't The One. He probably didn't know until he blew him up at the end of part one (which I believe is the impossibility he was referring to), and that is why Agent Smith felt confident that with his newfound multiplying powers he could stick his hand in Neo and take control of him or if not beat him with his new ability of multiplicity...

Owell, either way, just wait until Nov 5 and you'll have the answers (well, either that or they'll just go right over your head).

kermi3
05-22-2003, 01:06 PM
Well it's fine with me that you disagree with me, but I really have to say that I think you're missing some important points. Why would Smith say what he said in the manner in which he said it? Without sounding too repetitive I want to stress the fact that it is quite obvious they were attempting to make the point I'm making with the revelation of the second Smith coupled with his line... Why would he say to himself out of the blue that Neo is stronger than the agents? It's not a surprise to him; Neo blew him up! He's already known for (possibly) years that Neo is stronger than the agents. Wait a second, are you saying that his line "It's happening like before" was referring to Neo beating up agents like in part one? If so, I truly think you are failing to miss the grandeur of the whole situation.

I disagree. When Smith said this if I remmeber correctly it was just after they had fought a little. However it was also before Smith first displayed his new powers - his Ace in the hole. I think that he thought that with a portion of Neo's power he was more powerful than Neo. But anyway enough is enough. It was a good movie.

RoD
05-22-2003, 01:13 PM
>>Keep in mind that you will need 4.3gigs of free hard drive to install it ; ) Big game.

I've got 85gigs left, shouldnt be a problem hehe.