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WaltP
05-08-2003, 04:13 PM
My understanding of this board is to aid others in learing programming. But since I've been back, over the past few days I've seen a lot of responses that instead of helping steer people toward an answer, they insead give the answer by posting working code.

IMAO, this is not that helpful to the learning process, esp when most of the questions are probably homework assignments.

Posting code snippets is sensible, but full working code seems to me to be a detriment.

I'm interested in other opinions.

Walt

ronin
05-08-2003, 04:22 PM
Nope. I think it's far more beneficial to see a working model. Some people like myself don't do well with passive answers or samples that confuse more than they help. I want to learn, so I ask questions.

I make a point in my sig that I'm not a programmer, so my samples often wouldn't fly with a professor or instructor. I see no point in posting if it doesn't do anything but prompt the OP to keep asking questions. I'll probe for answers if I don't fully understand what the OP is attempting, but otherwise, I'll help if I can.

I understand and respect your POV, but I do disagree with it. I know that I'm in the minority on the issue, but that's is my character.

quzah
05-08-2003, 04:42 PM
This likely will be moved elsewhere, but I'll bite anyway.

As per the original poster, you should not give the exact answer to their problem. (IE: do not do their work for them) Sure, it's not what most people want, but it forces them to learn.

Most people that show up here just want their problem fixed, and they don't care why it's broken.

Take a few minutes to read and you'll find tons of evidence of this. You'll find countless posts like: "I need to do this and this and this. Thanx."

They don't even bother making an effort. Hell, to take it one step further, and to just show you how much people don't even care to learn, look at how many people don't use code tags.

I've read threads where in the same thread someone has been told four times how to use code tags, and they still respond without using them.

The same goes for void main. (This happened to be the same thread.) People are given the answer, shown how to do things, but they just don't care. They want people to do the work for them and they get mad when it doesn't happen.

Also, if you read the board policy, it's board policy to not do people's homework for them. Yet people do it all the time.

I get to the point where I don't even want to bother helping people any more, because they just don't care. They don't want to learn. They just want their "answer" done for them so they can turn it in.

Quzah.

Hammer
05-08-2003, 04:45 PM
>>This likely will be moved elsewhere
It's on it's way to GD.....

kermi3
05-08-2003, 05:32 PM
WaltP I agree with you, and quazah did a pretty good job summing up board policy.

Those who have read my many diffrent versions of the rules and posts on this subject will know my take and board policy:

Policy:
Can't figure it out? Ask providing as much detail about what you don't get as you can including code. Don't ask for entire assignments. Asking isn't a substitute for doing your homework.

My View:

I agree with the board and go further: Honor is very important. If it's graded, don't ask for help without instructor permission. If you do ask, cite it. "Give a man a fish; feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish; feed him for a lifetime."

alpha
05-08-2003, 06:17 PM
Yes, I am one of those that is willing to help. I have rarely posted actual fully working code, as in code that completely came from me. I'll fix someone's code sometimes and just repost it with the errors fixed (mostly compiler errors); but it depends on my mood. Most of the time, I'll help with snippets or the like.

And I think quzah did a good job summing it up. Some people just want to finish the class, get the grade, get it done with, and be out and probably not do more programming. I don't really care too much what others decide to do, if they want to slack and not do the work, that's their decision.

JaWiB
05-08-2003, 07:26 PM
I doubt it's so much that giving out free code or not giving out free code will be a clear-cut good or bad thing. Probably more like it doesn't matter either way. If you write their code then they might learn from it, and in the same way if you don't then they may not take the initiative to think for themselves. I see it every day--people sit at school and are given everything they need, but even if it's easy, some people just don't do the work. Likewise, if it's easy and a good student does the work, he can get as much out of it as if it were a hard assignment.


Summed up:

The difference isn't so much way it is taught, but rather in the way it is learned.

-KEN-
05-08-2003, 08:09 PM
I think the real problem with some responses are that complete morons with no grasp of the question decide to post. Leave it to people that know, guys. No need to confuse the question poster with idiocy :p.

I distinctly remember me and hammer PMing eachother back and forth one day mocking a thread that had like 20 newbies posting completely wrong and off-base replies. It took me one tiny reply to clear everything up.

SourceCode
05-08-2003, 09:44 PM
I just find it hard to see how people can actually use code that they do not understand. When people do this they are only hurting themselves. Even if it is for a programming class that must be taken and they are never going to program ever again, why not just learn how to do it. I mean if you are taking a class be fortunate that you have the oppurtunity to have an instructor and take advantage of that. Doesn't make sense at all to me:confused:

But yea I have seen those posts also. The one's that are just a homework assignment lol. Personally I think they are funny, it seems alot of these people have simply never used a message board. It is not hard to know how to ask questions correctly but those people must be like total noobs to message board usage in general hehe.

alpha
05-08-2003, 09:55 PM
That's true. I have forgotten about the people that use code they don't fully understand.

WaltP
05-08-2003, 10:11 PM
So the major consensus is don't give the answer, give a clue. If you are going to post working code, don't post the answer to the question, but one that gives information that can be used to find the answer.


Originally posted by ronin
Nope. I think it's far more beneficial to see a working model.
How I originally read this is "go ahead and give them the answer" but what I think you really mean is what I stated above. True?

Walt

ronin
05-08-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by WaltP
How I originally read this is "go ahead and give them the answer" but what I think you really mean is what I stated above. True?
Walt

I'm not going to work with posts that say this is due in two hours what's wrong, but I will try and help those who have made an effort. I certainly don't have all the answers, but of the ones that do, there are only a handful that actually help.

It is quite strange that some posts will sit unanswered yet heavily viewed until someone with lesser abilities makes an attempt to help, and then miraculously, others jump in and belittle the helper instead of adding something constructive that would be of help to the OP. I see that a lot.

It's not for me to decide whether or not the person asking for help wants to finish a course by having homework done. How anyone chooses to use information is entirely up to themselves. I'm not going to change the way that I answer, nor will I lose any sleep over helping someone out.

adrianxw
05-09-2003, 04:48 AM
I agree with you entirely Walt, and as usual, with Quzah, but...

>>> So the major consensus is don't give the answer, give a clue.

... that is the consensus of those who have replied to this thread! There are dozens of posters out there that like to show off their skills by posting a full working solution. Many is the time I've offered a few hints to push someone into the right direction, only 5 minutes later to find someone just jumps in with the answer.

I believe that to be a professional programmer, you must learn how to solve problems, not just coding problems, but half framed ideas from customers who are not really sure what they want and so on. Without that, these learners here will never make it as pro's, unless they are content to bash out stock code for a software sweat shop - and that I can assure anyone is no fun at all.

BTW: Walt, you were around in the old UltraBoard days weren't you?

GoodStuff
05-12-2003, 03:42 AM
You get two kinds of question posters.

0. Those who seek enlightment.
1. Those who don't give a hoot, but want it solved.

For the second type we are but the programming equivalent of a cheat code. I have no respect for such ones.

But for those who seek enlightment? Ah, for them I always have time. For those ones I'd give enough to help them figure it out for themselves.

I believe in guiding someone towards enlightment, for they will learn better if they find the answer for themselves. This I have found to be true over and over.

Therefore, I try to make them answer their own questions. There is honour in teaching the art of learning.

Gus

RoD
05-12-2003, 12:36 PM
I give full code when im in the mood or when im afriad that not giving full code will result in 400 "i dont get it" replies and no other way to clarify it.

WaltP
05-15-2003, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by adrianxw BTW: Walt, you were around in the old UltraBoard days weren't you?
I was here 3-4 years ago. If those were the days, then yes I was, for a while. Good memory!

Walt

WaltP
05-15-2003, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by GoodStuff
You get two kinds of question posters.

0. Those who seek enlightment.
1. Those who don't give a hoot, but want it solved.

For the second type we are but the programming equivalent of a cheat code. I have no respect for such ones.


Yep, those are the two types I'd figure on, too. I guess I feel that giving help and no answers to type
0) very useful
1) doesn't do their homework for them and they have to ask someone else (like the instructor) or they might actually think about it

On the other hand, giving the answer to type
0) is a detriment -- they wanted to learn but half of the learning process is circumvented
1) is a detriment -- we pass the course, not them (and I passed years ago, I don't wanna do it again ;-)


Originally posted by RoD
I give full code when im in the mood or when im afriad that not giving full code will result in 400 "i dont get it" replies and no other way to clarify it.
I guess I'd rather get a couple "I don't get it" responses before caving in and spoon feeding them. If they still don't get it, they should talk to the instructor, not us.

Walt