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zahid
05-08-2003, 08:16 AM
We cannot tell what USA got from this but time can, we can only try to guess.

Lets see what we got from this war.

OneStiffRod
05-08-2003, 09:37 AM
1) We got a re-assertion of our dominance...
2) It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.
3) Whether they like it or not Iraq will be under direct US influence for the next 5yrs and probably indirect influence for the next 10. I'm sure they will grow into a very very powerful ally in that region for us - whether they like it or not.
4) We get to shuck the UN, we've been trying since 1994-95 to do that, now we can.
5) We've tightened our grip in the arabian peninsula and are marching towardz new influence in the cuacasus (many NATO bases are being moved to the smaller former soviet republics).
6) fill in here.... there's a million awesome things we got, i haven't even touched on the oil or economic benefits - it's all good - if you're american.

golfinguy4
05-08-2003, 12:13 PM
ummmm, we also have 99.9% of the arab world hating us.


BTW, if there are any arabs here, can you tell me how much the US is actually hated over there?

RoD
05-08-2003, 12:18 PM
>>2) It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.

Better words were never spoken

Silvercord
05-08-2003, 01:17 PM
There are no more weapons of mass destruction and the world is completely safe because there are no other countries that could POSSIBLY give wmd to terrorists (especially not china, russia, israel, india, pakistan, south africa, or north korea) and there are no longer atrocities being comitted in the world because saddam hussein is no longer in power and now all of the arabs like chicken and surf the internet and do drugs and want to be just like us


say it, i know it, im an $$$$$$$

TechWins
05-08-2003, 02:21 PM
I completely agree with OSR. However, there was the downside of the war that golfinguy mentioned. Although, in time, when it's clearly shown the benefits Iraq received from the war, hatred towards America from Arabs will decrease.

-KEN-
05-08-2003, 03:09 PM
Oil?

>>I completely agree with OSR.

You just made Jesus cry.

mart_man00
05-08-2003, 03:50 PM
There are no more weapons of mass destruction and the world is completely safe because there are no other countries that could POSSIBLY give wmd to terrorists (especially not china, russia, israel, india, pakistan, south africa, or north korea) and there are no longer atrocities being comitted in the world because saddam hussein is no longer in power and now all of the arabs like chicken and surf the internet and do drugs and want to be just like us
the funny part about this is that clinton basicly said this to our military.

"ok guys, theres no more soviet union so we cant possible need a decent military. lets cut you budge in half and see how french we can make you."
-president bill "wheres monica" clinton


ummmm, we also have 99.9% of the arab world hating us.
what would you prefer? we could of let him stay in power, but when they finally get around to overthrowing a couple years later we get blamed for not doing anything. but if we do get involved its imperialism. i hate to say it, but do we really care? a bunch of basicly hillbillies with aks are angry, atleat the guy that could be a handfull and could do some real damge to us is gone. it will take a while but people will learn, atleast nothing can happen to us .

yes, i said us. if you are a american you should want us to succeed first the other countries and you should value american lives just alittle more.

its rarely are figh, but we still get involved. half the time our(yes, are "allies") dont have a chance. its seems like appreciated every one in the military and everybody that died became to un politicaly correct. but this is "progress".

golfinguy4
05-08-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by RoD
>>2) It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.

Better words were never spoken

Words more indicative of a person's intelligence were never spoken.

mart_man00
05-08-2003, 04:37 PM
Words more indicative of a person's intelligence were never spoken.
i hate when of all of the intelligence crap gets thrown in, all of your kind just runs to their momies crying and yelling heil clinton heil clinton.

its the truth, what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?

we should just drop from the un and be done wit it, perminate alliances never work. just like giving every one a say doesnt work. how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
not 3rd world countries.

RoD
05-08-2003, 05:15 PM
i hate when of all of the intelligence crap gets thrown in, all of your kind just runs to their momies crying and yelling heil clinton heil clinton.

My previous post stands corrected.

golfinguy4
05-08-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by mart_man00
i hate when of all of the intelligence crap gets thrown in, all of your kind just runs to their momies crying and yelling heil clinton heil clinton.

its the truth, what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?

we should just drop from the un and be done wit it, perminate alliances never work. just like giving every one a say doesnt work. how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
not 3rd world countries.

Wow, I really hope that someone like you never attains any form of power whatsoever. If so, we'll be nuking anyone who says "USA sucks."

RoD
05-08-2003, 05:18 PM
>>If so, we'll be nuking anyone who says "USA sucks."

likes thats not going to happen anyway??

OneStiffRod
05-08-2003, 05:41 PM
>>ummmm, we also have 99.9% of the arab world hating us.

ohh no, you've got this wrong... 99.9999998% of the arabs hated us before this -- ie. 9/11 -- ie. there bin laden t-shirtz and other crap. We've now killed a good percentage of their most fanatical who went to Afghanistan and then iraq to fight jihad!!! -- those who survived ran back home with their tailz between their legs.

Now 99.8% and falling hate us and we've removed a source of funding and weapons for these terrorists and also a huge reason for hating us -- namely that our troops were stationed inside of kuwait and saudi arabia -- our troops are being pulled out of saudi arabia and the number of troops in kuwait and elsewhere are being reduced.

I have a strange fondness for this JIHAD!!! now, i'm not talking about terrorizm -- but this is why they launched 9/11 -- it was an attempt to goad us into jihad -- they got their wish and we aint done yet either...

"If their wish is to be sent to allah, we'll accomodate 'em" -- Gen. Tommy Franks

mart_man00
05-08-2003, 05:59 PM
If so, we'll be nuking anyone who says "USA sucks."
not a bad idea, to bad it couldnt be done........

i like the east $hit and die foreign policy better. not get involved with conflicts not involving/threatening us and not helping any one thats hurting us.

-KEN-
05-08-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by mart_man00
i hate when of all of the intelligence crap gets thrown in, all of your kind just runs to their momies crying and yelling heil clinton heil clinton.

its the truth, what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?

we should just drop from the un and be done wit it, perminate alliances never work. just like giving every one a say doesnt work. how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
not 3rd world countries.

You're right, intelligence breeds pussy pinko commie fags. I say we slaughter any weaker country, especially ones where they're starving and can barely feed themselves. I mean, who the ........ are they helping? They're just a drain on the planet's resources.








God I hope you're some idiot's gimmick account. If not, I've lost faith in humanity. Go kill yourself, for the love of God.

mart_man00
05-08-2003, 06:16 PM
hmm, not terrorists or get own military killed for conflicts that arent ours, so objectionable. its only what the country was founded, its only common sense. just because it didnt work for the first decase maybe it will work for the next one, after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.

great, from a man in fl, you cant vote but you can get on a board, what a country this has turned into. bet you filled in clinton to.......

-KEN-
05-08-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by mart_man00
hmm, not terrorists or get own military killed for conflicts that arent ours, so objectionable. its only what the country was founded, its only common sense. just because it didnt work for the first decase maybe it will work for the next one, after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.

great, from a man in fl, you cant vote but you can get on a board, what a country this has turned into. bet you filled in clinton to.......

Voting jokes? You, sir, are the epitome of wit.

CheesyMoo
05-08-2003, 08:17 PM
I believe that the US benefited, the whole point of this was to stop another Hitler on the uprise. We accomplished that, he was just finishing what daddy started(don't quote me on that).

Anyways, there is always going to be some anti-whatever person here complaining about everything. I think our method saved more lives in the longrun.
Either way, it already happened.

mart_man00
05-08-2003, 08:42 PM
We accomplished that, he was just finishing what daddy started.
sorry, had to quote it. why didnt we take care of him the first time around anyway? any history buffs in the thread?

novacain
05-09-2003, 01:44 AM
The War in Iraq foused the US media on a bad guy that could be punished for his actions. Away from the shadowy terrorists that can't be found.

They are armed with nukes and fissile material (for dirty bombs). The US secret service assumes they are already in the US.

So the 'Battle for Iraq' reasured the US public that the US is strong and capable and hid the fact that the terrorists can attack anytime they want and can not be stopped.

GWB looks like a hero, ready for a second term, with some great PR footage on the carrier. (As long as no-one mentions the kids in Camp X-Ray.)

Cheney's going to make huge $ from Iraqi oil (his company Halliburton was awarded the billion $ contract without any other tenders)

novacain
05-09-2003, 01:49 AM
In response to the other posts.

>>just like giving every one a say doesnt work.

So democracy, like that in the US isn't working?

>>how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year!

So if it does not have a $ value it is worthless. So if I make more money than you I am better and should have more say than you in how the world is run?

This is what is wrong with US culture, no moral fiber. No compassion, no respect for other cultures and people.

>> It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.

Why is it that disagreeing with any US foriegn policy is 'anti US'?

Can you only be pro US if you agree with everything the US administration wants to do?

>>a bunch of basicly hillbillies with aks are angry,

And with access to plane tickets or fertilizer and diesel......

>>atleat the guy that could be a handfull and could do some real damge to us is gone.

With what could Sadam have done any dammage? His 24 outdated fighters?
The tonnes of WMD the US has discovered and destroyed?

>>it will take a while but people will learn, atleast nothing can happen to us .

No chance of a repeat of S11 or Bali or USS Cole or Indian Parlement or Russian theater or ??

>>what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?

Why is it all about how much we owe the US?

USA's aid, in terms of percentage of their GDP is already lowest of any industrialized nation in the world.

The order of the top 20 based as a percentage of total country income is in 2001:

Denmark
Norway
Netherlands
Luxembourg
Sweden
Belgium
Switzerland
France
Ireland
Finland
UK
Spain
Germany
Portugal
New Zealand
Austria
Australia
Japan
canada
Greece
Italy
US

source :: http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

Since 1992 Japan has been the worlds largest _gross_ Aid contributor.

The US regained this in 2001 thanks to $600 million in aid to Pakistan for its help in Afghanistan.

>>after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.

Oh. So no UK personel were killed?
No Australians were involved?
No Iraqi civilians or Kurdish fighters were either?

No other countries were involved in Afghanistan?

vasanth
05-09-2003, 05:37 AM
US always plays a double game.. THough it knows that Pakistan supports Jihad and terrorism it supports them.. And say after 10 years will have a war with them as it happened in Afganistan and Iraq. Give them all the weapons as aid and then after 10 years say that they have weapon of mass distruction...

mart_man00
05-09-2003, 05:40 AM
no time to do all mthe posts


So if it does not have a $ value it is worthless. So if I make more money than you I am better and should have more say than you in how the world is run?
no, money doesnt matter, unless it looks like money from decades ago.

Unregd
05-09-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by mart_man00
yes, i said us. if you are a american you should want us to succeed first the other countries and you should value american lives just alittle more.

If you're an American who believes in the same principles the Founding Fathers used to validate the American War for Independence, you believe in the equality of all people--no life is more valuable than another. You would also believe that a people has a right to determine its own government and not have some foreign power impose a particular government upon them.

In the short run, having the United States restore a democratic government to Iraq may seem like a good thing, but the Shiite Muslims already seem poised to create a fundamentalist Islamic republic if the democratic voice of the nations in Iraq are truly heard. The United States is supposedly working to prevent any fundamentalist or despotic governments from regenerating in this country, but again this violates democratic principles even if the principle means the end of democracy in an area.

It still seems, under the guise of bringing a more liberal democracy to Iraq, that the U.S. government has really prepared for the imperial extraction of natural resources and wealth. The U.S. is having new laws written that are very friendly to large American corporations (instead of allowing Iraq to develop its own economic policy and regulations) and is handing out contracts for things they cannot claim to own except by force of arms.

Yes, I am always for letting people live their lives free from the control of a despotic totalitarian government; yes, I am always in favor of letting the people have control of their government; but I also believe these principles cannot be violated to achieve those ends.

Silvercord
05-09-2003, 10:52 AM
god save the queen

MICHAEL KOO
05-09-2003, 10:58 AM
mart_man00 quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If so, we'll be nuking anyone who says "USA sucks."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


not a bad idea, to bad it couldnt be done........

i like the east $hit and die foreign policy better. not get involved with conflicts not involving/threatening us and not helping any one thats hurting us.




NONE OF US HERE SAID, "US SUCKS" ~ IT'S JUST YOUR WAY OF THINKING..

n_h
05-09-2003, 12:38 PM
I can understand the Americans who say, US is the only country, all the others are $$$$ ... .

I can understand this because about 60-70 years ago, it was the same situation in Germany, where I'm from.
People even loved the nazi regime and they lived for it. This was the case becouse they were victims of propagande. They just did not know what was going on.
But they woke up,... badly..

Compare the methods of the nazi regime and some techniques used to make the american population believe that what they are doing has to be done and is the only right thing.
(Compare: Germany overrun Poland,saying Poland attacked Germany -- now, ever heard of the legend of an american ship which was sayed to be attacked by >>a country<<)

I can understand your thoughts because you don't know what's going on in America (at least very few of you know what is going on).
Your president makes you believe that Saddam is dangerous for you, that he has got MCWs. He doesn't have.
Even the CIA says that there is no danger for the US becouse of Iraq. The people who invented this story is a group (of about 20 people)in Pentagon which G.W.Bush has created to justify war against Iraq.
The "proves" the US presented the world at the UN figured out to be not true within a few day (sometimes heard about 1 day).

Big Question:
How can a country democratize another country, though the country itself is no real democracy, a democratic country in which a man who doesn't get the most votes gets President. I think if Bush would not be your President, you would think different, and things would be much better now.

Wake up! Don't let blind yourselves from your government.
Maybe you will wake up,..,when it's too late.
Don't believe everything, question their statements.

Hey, non US people don't hate you because they say what you are doing is not ok, and war can be avoided, people die.


>>If so, we'll be nuking anyone who says "USA sucks."

likes thats not going to happen anyway??

you will die as well.


i hate when of all of the intelligence crap gets thrown in,

if all americans think would have thought the same way, world would not exist in its actual form!
I hope not all americans are your opinion.
Maybe you will understand what war is like, when you feel bombs falling on your head.

WanTeD
05-09-2003, 04:04 PM
[i]ummmm, we also have 99.9% of the arab world hating us.


BTW, if there are any arabs here, can you tell me how much the US is actually hated over there [/B]

Well most arab muslims hate the USA that's for sure. I know that cuz i see that in my country everyday (Lebanon); They always try to blow up the McDonalds/Burgur Kings and other american restaurants. I know that most of you don't undestand this, but most of the muslim arab world can't survive without dictatorship. I mean they hide behind their fake democracy, but the truth is that most arab countries are ruled by dictators. Take syria for exemple, just after the death of the president, his son was elected by 99.9%. Same thing happens in Egypt,Lybia...A president getting elected by a 99.9% majority isn't a demopcracy. That was makes the arab muslim hate the USA so much, they haven't experienced democracy by any means. Oh another thing, don't get fooled by the arab demonstration against the US that you see on TV, you must understand that most of the arab muslim persons will support whoever is in power, they don't support an opinion, they don't support a plan to develop their countries...they just support the man who is in power. I can giveyou an exemple: In my country, politicians are all morons and don't have a clue about how to play a real role in politics, they just rip the country, increase taxes...and people usually demostrates against them and their new rules..but when elections are due...PUFF PUFF GIVE...same people are elected(or their sons). Same family names are still in power here since the second wolrd war. Anywayz, the conclusion is that whoever doesn't experience any political democracy will unconsciously hate the US when western presidents start talking about the arab world and its democracy.

minesweeper
05-09-2003, 04:38 PM
>>What WanTeD said<<

It's not often I post on the GD board cos most of it is rubbish but what this man says is probably the best post I have read in a while. In the west we live our free lives and look upon the east, almost as inferior, and ask ourselves the question 'How can anyone want to live under anything but democracy?'. Well the fact is we understand NOTHING about the Arab world but yet we automatically assume that our way of life is the best and that everyone should be subjected to it. In my opinion, that is what is at fault in many global disputes.

mart_man00
05-09-2003, 06:09 PM
n_h, people with alot of weapons and a history often turn out to be alright. he wantes to have us killed, has weapons that can kill small(still a few thousand still counts) ammount and will have huge amounts, if its not us it will be some one. then we will get blamed for when hussien nukes france and we did nothing(i forget who said this, "we can count on the french to be there when they need us").


that our way of life is the best and that everyone should be subjected to it.
thats just plan bull. by that there should still be slavery and still be nazis. i sure slave owners hated the north and loved free labor, it was so cheap, so productive. democracy isnt perfect(remember us americans have a republic), but its the best humans have come up with.

thanks WanTeD, that kind of stuff is rarely said.

OneStiffRod
05-09-2003, 06:18 PM
>>How can a country democratize another country, though the country itself is no real democracy, a democratic country in which a man who doesn't get the most votes gets President.

We are a representative democracy - a TRUE democracy would be the most cumbersome and awful thing you could ever imagine. It's true that Bush did not get the most votes technically - but he won the most states and that's how our system works... if it worked any other way why would any polotician care to court the votes of the states in the center of the country??? most of the population is along the coasts -- we could completly ignore the plight and votes of those in the farmlandz.

We have a BILL OF RIGHTS to protect indivuals and minority groups from the will of the majority -- the majority is not always right.

WanTeD
05-10-2003, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by OneStiffRod
>>How can a country democratize another country, though the country itself is no real democracy, a democratic country in which a man who doesn't get the most votes gets President.


Even A democratic country cannot democratize another country. I had a list somewhere of some not-democratic countries that were conquered by the US in order to free their people from their ruling dictators in the last 30 years or so, well only few and very few of them have a peacful life with a democratic system.

Well the truth is that if the people don't move a finger to fight their unfair system, even if that system disappears, the people have lived their lives under that dictatoship, not knowing or fearing to express their true opinions, will prefer to stay that way instead of the 'unknown' democracy.

Shiro
05-10-2003, 03:10 AM
> I can understand the Americans who say, US is the only country, all the others are
> $$$$ ... .
>
> I can understand this because about 60-70 years ago, it was the same situation in
> Germany, where I'm from.

How can you understand? I can't, my country was one of those taken by the nazi's those days. Many people here, especially those who survived WW2, wouldn't understand, they would wonder how it comes the world hasn't learned from WW2.

> Maybe you will understand what war is like, when you feel bombs falling on your head.

I agree, I think it makes a big difference if you're from a country which has experienced to be taken or not. It does influence a country's thinking about war and peace. Last week we had the 5th of May celebrations, the day our country was freed from the nazi's. Each year this day people here think about war and peace and other things going on in this world.

> democracy isnt perfect(remember us americans have a republic), but its the best
> humans have come up with.

One of the best. Another good thing is solidairity.

> Even A democratic country cannot democratize another country.

No country can democratize other countries. A country can only democratize itself, other countries can only try to create conditions in which a democracy can grow.

If I were president of a country and I would tell people from an other country how to behave, would I be a dictator then?

> will prefer to stay that way instead of the 'unknown' democracy.

I think that is correct.

A lot of people from eastern Europe say they are unhappy with the new system, they say it was better in the old Sovjet-system. In the western part of Europe, people are amazed about that, but they just saw the Sovjet-system from the outside and learned about it from western newspapers and other media. Just to give an example, Gorbachov is a respected man here in the west, but from people from Armenia and Azerbeidjan living here in my city I know they hate them, he killed many people in their countries, including their families, why they fled many years ago to western Europe. In the western newspapers people usually read that Gorbachov was trying to make the USSR more democratic.

One of the reasons why people from eastern Europe say they are unhappy is that the new system came to fast and led to chaos in their country. It does take many generations before a country has learned to live with a new system and can use a different system to take advantage of it, if that is possible.

The same will be in Iraq. The US nor the UN we able to democratize Iraq. They will maybe only be able to create conditions in which a democracy could grow, but also that will take many generations.

minesweeper
05-10-2003, 03:44 AM
Little story,

I have a book called 'Inside Espionage' which is an autobiography of a former operative in the CIA. In the book he gives many stories of various people he's met in his years as a spy. One of those accounts is of 2 russians who defected to America spilling the beans about some aspect of the KGB. The US government gave them a house, a car, a salary forever more etc. After 2 years, one of them gave it all up and went back to The Soviet Union, in full knowledge that he would be thrown in prison for life or would simply 'disappear'. Living under our system and not being told how to behave 24 hours a day was simply too much for him and he would rather spend his life in jail.

Seems very strange doesn't it? I can't understand that way of thinking as I guess most here couldn't. Which is why the idea of the west imposing a way of life on others is doomed to end in disaster.

cmart_man00
05-10-2003, 10:47 AM
yeah, he would rether spend his life in jail. he couldnt possibly of felt guilty for betraying what was his country for the longest time or missing family. democracy is evil.


maybe it we are pushing it to fast, it did take us a while for our half-$ssed one.

Brian
05-10-2003, 11:03 AM
America are constantly throwing their weight (being the fattest country (http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15119) in the world, they have a lot of it) around. It won't do them any favours in the future. They already have the hatred of the entire middle east, and anybody that says America attacked Iraq to free the people is full of $$$$. America attacked Iraq because their oil was too expensive and they wanted a discount.

OneStiffRod
05-10-2003, 01:29 PM
>>A lot of people from eastern Europe say they are unhappy with the new system, they say it was better in the old Sovjet-system.

Ohh yes, I completly understand this, the old soviet saying "We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us."

In communism everyone has a job -- that job being spying on your neighbors for the state.

It's all about money, and the reason for ppl's unhappiness everywhere is a lack of money. This is something that is a problem everywhere -- and guess what, in socialist & communist countries this problem is only growing and prevalent compared to capatilist democracies. This lack of money can be solved and it doesn't require the loss of freedoms, socialism, nor communism.

It's true that democracy can only exist when the ppl support and involve themselves in it... it cannot be imposed with success... this is a weakness but also an admirable quality that a true democracy can't be imposed.

For those who don't participate in their democracy to keep it a democracy, they will find themselves in the same position as I think Zimbabwee or some other country I read about Maldova or some country... this is where they had 1 vote 1 time and elected a dictator who promised socialist/communist benefits at the cost of freedoms and authoritative rule.

Clyde
05-10-2003, 01:47 PM
"It's all about money, and the reason for ppl's unhappiness everywhere is a lack of money"

Right so there's no such thing as an unhappy millionaire? What nonsense, psychological studies have shown many times that contrary to popular belief wealth is not the be all and end all in terms of happiness, in fact in many instances the correlation is a poor one.

"This is something that is a problem everywhere -- and guess what, in socialist & communist countries this problem is only growing and prevalent compared to capatilist democracies"

Can you please give an example of a "socialist" country.

golfinguy4
05-10-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by WanTeD
Well most arab muslims hate the USA that's for sure. I know that cuz i see that in my country everyday (Lebanon); They always try to blow up the McDonalds/Burgur Kings and other american restaurants. I know that most of you don't undestand this, but most of the muslim arab world can't survive without dictatorship. I mean they hide behind their fake democracy, but the truth is that most arab countries are ruled by dictators. Take syria for exemple, just after the death of the president, his son was elected by 99.9%. Same thing happens in Egypt,Lybia...A president getting elected by a 99.9% majority isn't a demopcracy. That was makes the arab muslim hate the USA so much, they haven't experienced democracy by any means. Oh another thing, don't get fooled by the arab demonstration against the US that you see on TV, you must understand that most of the arab muslim persons will support whoever is in power, they don't support an opinion, they don't support a plan to develop their countries...they just support the man who is in power. I can giveyou an exemple: In my country, politicians are all morons and don't have a clue about how to play a real role in politics, they just rip the country, increase taxes...and people usually demostrates against them and their new rules..but when elections are due...PUFF PUFF GIVE...same people are elected(or their sons). Same family names are still in power here since the second wolrd war. Anywayz, the conclusion is that whoever doesn't experience any political democracy will unconsciously hate the US when western presidents start talking about the arab world and its democracy.

Sorry that I'm late, but thank you very much. I have been wanting to know the opinion of the arab world. Ignorance is what leads to these problems and I hope that some day, the world will be a different place.

Xei
05-10-2003, 02:40 PM
2) It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.

What countries, exactly, are you saying are anti-US? I don't want to start an arguement, but I am curious. The first thing that came to my mind would've been the countries who refused to take part in the war, which wouldn't make them anti-US.


>>we should just drop from the un and be done wit it, perminate alliances never work. just like giving every one a say doesnt work. how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
not 3rd world countries.

Just because something hasn't worked so well doesn't mean to give up. The principals of the UN are respectable. I think it should stay. How many of the countries objecting have a right to argue? O...M...G

>>its the truth, what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?

If you are conveying that the U.S. does everything in their power to help the world and that noone in the world gives back, then I disagree with your comment. I hate it when I hear people $$$$$ at how much the U.S. gives to the world, I like my american neighbors, but I cannot stand it when I hear that people think that the world owes them something.

>>after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.

You're full of $$$$. You arn't the only ones who have had your soldiers killed, in somalia pakistan saved you. In Cyprus Canadian soldiers died as well. In Korea thousands of Canadians, British, and other nations soldiers died. Did you know that for many years the United States refused to pay their UN dues on account that they were not treated fairly by the UN? Would you call this footing the bill? Stop acting like the US is picked on.


>>1) We got a re-assertion of our dominance...

I hope your not saying that you think the US has world dominance.

OneStiffRod
05-10-2003, 04:10 PM
>>I hope your not saying that you think the US has world dominance.

I am saying that, just look around u dude....

>>What countries, exactly, are you saying are anti-US? I don't want to start an arguement, but I am curious. The first thing that came to my mind would've been the countries who refused to take part in the war, which wouldn't make them anti-US.

I'm mainly talking about france and germany... France will be "removed" from all future decisions in NATO, and Germany, it's almost a done deal, will lose most of the NATO bases inside germany as the US is now planning to move them to our new friends in the former soviet republics. These decisions may not seem like much but for germany I think it's close to 1billion in revenue is generated from these NATO bases and I don't even think that accounts for the economies built around servicing these bases in the civilian areas. For France, losing all influence and say concerning NATO actions is certainly costly -- especially since they wish to become a dominant power in europe.

golfinguy4
05-11-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Xei
I hope your not saying that you think the US has world dominance.

The United States is by far one of the most powerful nations in the world. However, we should use our might for right, not might for might.

SAMSAM
05-11-2003, 02:41 PM
Ok lets cut the story & intelect short .its simple.

We have a desolute nation under a dictator who oversee
and controls over what they do, wear, see, hear, say, think, believe, eat(believe me its true in some country 50 lashes for
eating pork by a moslem),,,,,,,,,.

Now you are a democratic power. what are your choices.

A__Have relations&trade with this bastd for profit. & thus legitimize his rule and ignore the wishes & dreams& suffering
of millions of its citizens.

Or

B__Ignore the dictator

or

C__Go in . demolish his tyranny & free its slaves . and force
feed its public with some basic rights .so they wont fall prey
to the next dictator that may come shopping.and as an added
bonus win some commercial contract for yourself.

United State chose option C. that was the most humane
decision coming from a so called imperialist power.
it is absolutley irrelevant as why (israeli pressure, oil, trade
, arms lobby ,,,,,,) she did it.

US by virtue of its actions alone in afghanistan/iraq has gained
the respect & admirations of millions over millions of hopeless freedom fighters around the globe.(including in my birth country
iran. which majority %90 are battling the regime rule through
student& youth daily demostration, thousands in jails& more
joining the political prisoners death row .).after bush,s threat
to mullahs, the youth have a new idol. he is called GW Bush.)

I am by no means a republican fan.and used to laugh at the
idiotic choice that the americans made for president(bush).

but We should judge ppl based on the merit of their action and not by their slogans.pre war bush was a joke icon.
look who is laughing now. :D he gained the respect of the
average citizen(not the idiot extremists you see on tv in some parts of the middle east)
(i still dont like cheney though)

try living under dictatorship for a year and pretty soon you
find that bush looks more & more like a cute angel of mercy.

those democratic countries pimping for dictators should change their ways or stay the hell out of the way of those nations
who look up to the so called "fat nation" for moral support.

OneStiffRod
05-11-2003, 07:17 PM
>>US by virtue of its actions alone in afghanistan/iraq has gained
the respect & admirations of millions over millions of hopeless freedom fighters around the globe.(including in my birth country
iran. which majority %90 are battling the regime rule through
student& youth daily demostration, thousands in jails& more
joining the political prisoners death row

Right after the Taliban fell in afghanistan a reporter from ABC - I think from 20/20 - went to iran to just interview ppl. He walked around the streetz and talked to ppl in iran about how they felt about the US, and about their own govt.....

He was guarded with his questions to protect the ppl but all the youth said they want to have better relations with america and don't agree with the restrictive rulez of the mullaz -- and surprisingly some of them came up to him and when they felt there were no spies or minders around said openly that they wanted to see the same thing that america did for afghanistan in iran -- namely that 90% of the ppl would support an uprising backed by american air power and military support to overthrow the mullaz and retake their country.

-- I beleive this to be well after bush made his "axis of evil" speech but well before iraq2. I'm sure the feelings have shifted a bit as the iraq issue has stirred up alot of emotions -- but I think those types of issues don't change and the US is making the right decisions by intervening and lifting the oppresive veil from that region.

-- We are doing more to prevent future terrorism and terrorists by overthrowing these types of regimes... it is their mandated poverty and oppression that breedz these terrorists from the hate that these regimes are so eager to deflect from themselves and onto the US. The gainz we've made are immeasurable as we may never know what we have prevented by denying these regimes their breeding groundz for US hatred and these ppl can focus on bettering their own futures for once.

Clyde
05-12-2003, 05:03 AM
"We are doing more to prevent future terrorism and terrorists by overthrowing these types of regimes"

The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will increase it.

More people hate the US now and with greater conviction than before, that means in all likelyhood more people will sign up to be terrorists.

"is their mandated poverty and oppression that breedz these terrorists from the hate that these regimes are so eager to deflect from themselves and onto the US"

Iraq was not a fundamentalist Islamic state and does not appear to have many connections with the terrorism that the West so fears.

"The gainz we've made are immeasurable as we may never know what we have prevented by denying these regimes their breeding groundz for US hatred and these ppl can focus on bettering their own futures for once."

They are immeasurable and they may well be negative. Fundamentalist states (Iraq was not one) are breeding grounds for US hatred, but then so are non-fundamentalist states like Pakistan, its not the state that matters, its the people. And attacking Islam, which is what the US is percieved to be doing by the 3rd world Muslims, is exactly what people like Bin Laden need to swell their ranks.

Shiro
05-12-2003, 11:57 AM
> In communism everyone has a job -- that job being spying on your neighbors for the
> state. It's all about money, and the reason for ppl's unhappiness everywhere is a
> lack of money.

So money makes you happy? I wonder if money makes happy, I think it leads in more cases to unhappiness than happiness.

The problem is, I think, the distribution of wealth. A few people are extremely rich, in ex-communistic countries usually those who had a high function in the government or who had a big company loyal to the communistic party, but most people were and are still poor. After the eastern European countries were freed of their dictators, they couldn't benefit from it. I think the western European countries should have done more for the eastern European countries. Give more support, less laws, trading rules and that kind of things which make it so hard for the eastern European countries to develop themselves and work together with western European countries.

It is not the problem that the eastern European people don't have money. The problem is dat we in the western world don't accept people having no money. We keep them away, but should support them.

> This lack of money can be solved and it doesn't require the loss of freedoms,
> socialism, nor communism.

How?

> For those who don't participate in their democracy to keep it a democracy, they will
> find themselves in the same position as I think Zimbabwee or some other country I
> read about Maldova or some country... this is where they had 1 vote 1 time and
> elected a dictator who promised socialist/communist benefits at the cost of freedoms
> and authoritative rule.

The situation in almost all, what we in the western world called, communistic countries was and is that they are not really communistic. The problem is that most of those countries have a dictator leading the country.

>> We are doing more to prevent future terrorism and terrorists by overthrowing these
>> types of regimes
>
> The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will
> increase it.

Yes, I also think it will not prevent terrorism. Saddam Hussein was leader of a country, people like Osama Bin Laden are leaders of international networks which you can't fight the way you would do with a country. The US has shown it can topple the regime of a country quite easily, so those who want to fight they US will organise them more and more in international networks and operate from there. The world has still not shown to be able to fight terrorism, so I think more people who want to fight will enter terroristic organisations.

OneStiffRod
05-12-2003, 02:14 PM
>>The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will increase it.

>>More people hate the US now and with greater conviction than before, that means in all likelyhood more people will sign up to be terrorists.


Where have these ppl been since 9/11 -- their feelings have never changed... I am willing to BET MONEY that u are wrong... u should read about those from jordan, syria, and sudan who came to iraq to fight a jihad against the US - their dream - they lost big and those who survived are actually begging the iraqi populace for money to GO HOME... In fact much of their anger has been deflected to their own mullaz who sent them with the promise of victory -- read about the same situation of the paki's who survived and walked home from afghanistan.

Osama Bin Laden said in a speech "America is very much weaker than the Russians"... it was a delusion that he believed and was tested when he got his ass whipped just like these jihad fighters -- the ppl who committed 9/11 were well todo suadi's who traveled the world before coming to the US to commit their act. The poor ppl of repressed countries and now the free ppl of iraq will not be signing up for bin laden's cuase as they have much more important things to concentrate on...

In point of fact for those who don't know, "Al-queda" means "The Base" and some are in fact arguing that this Base is really a name for a Database of names of former fighters in the afghanistan war against the soviets, an "international network" -- if u dissect the missions that Bin Laden has ordered and carried out all have been led by the ppl on this list of ppl who fought against the soviets -- today a large number of those ppl are dead or imprisoned in the US or elsewhere -- and the others are on the run being pursued by the US. The ppl who carry out the 9/11's of the world are few and far between and most come from places of unchecked militancy -- like Indonesia or Phillipines is where the next attackers will probably come from. Doing nothing is what breedz these terrorists.

mart_man00
05-12-2003, 03:57 PM
as for the numbers of deaths, i still bet america has losed to many, especialy since we always seem to get involvd when a country like france gets its a$$ kicked(vietnam).


Did you know that for many years the United States refused to pay their UN dues on account that they were not treated fairly by the UN? well we are one of the founders, were probally reserved this right to begin with, if not its all building and we are the super power. would you prefer people that never saw electricity in their lives run the show?


The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will increase it.
yeah, killing many members and scaring everyone that might of inlisted means more terrorists..........

Xei
05-12-2003, 05:19 PM
well we are one of the founders, were probally reserved this right to begin with, if not its all building and we are the super power. would you prefer people that never saw electricity in their lives run the show?

Yes, because they are not addicted to it. And since when does founding something give a person the sole right to do whatever they want? and by the way, the US does not run the show in the UN-France, Russia, China, America, and the UK have permanent membership on the UN Security Council giving them the ability to veto the United States. I know that many people believe that the US runs the world (obviously many members on this Board do), but I wont blame you completely due to the poor quality of your propogandist education system.

edit:

>>as for the numbers of deaths, i still bet america has losed to many, especialy since we always seem to get involvd when a country like france gets its a$$ kicked(vietnam).

As for France being beaten in vietnam, I seem to recall another 'western nation' suffering 66,000 casualties and not accomplishing anything for these losses...who could it be?