PDA

View Full Version : most challenging thing to program



Pages : [1] 2

volk
03-23-2003, 07:57 PM
Is programming an operating system the most challenging thing that can be programmed or is it one of those high-end 3D games? It's probably A.I., right?

RoD
03-23-2003, 08:02 PM
I would say true and "independent" AI is definitly up there....hardest is kind of an opinion.

Sebastiani
03-23-2003, 10:46 PM
I would say the hardest program to make is a well-written, robust, bug-free one. :)

Seriously tho, it really depends on so many factors, hard to say what would be most difficult. Suffice it to say that innumerable programs could be written that would satisfy that criteria. ;)

adrianxw
03-24-2003, 02:48 AM
I would say you are correct volk. There are operating systems, so whilst challenging to get right, it has been done. There are high end 3d games, same logic. There is not yet an AI that could beat even a moderate club "Go" player.

Govtcheez
03-24-2003, 07:29 AM
> There is not yet an AI that could beat even a moderate club "Go" player.

I've heard this many times, but I don't understand why. I've played Go before, and I don't get why it's so complicated that a computer can't even beat your average amateur...

adrianxw
03-24-2003, 09:30 AM
<fx> shrugs shoulders </fx> The fact remains. ISTR there is an article about it at Eric's site.

Vber
03-24-2003, 11:05 AM
I'm with Rod, AI is extremely difficult for some people, but really fun to do.

Shiro
03-24-2003, 12:40 PM
In almost all fields of programming there are programs to think of which are very challenging. Writing a distributed operating system, a digital image processing system, a system for a robot to let it play soccer in a team, such things are all quite challenging. But I don't think there is a single thing which is absolute the most challenging.

maes
03-24-2003, 01:48 PM
Most challenging: making Windows bug free

[off topic]
I got some documentation from a uni in my mailbox the other day, about a Master degree in A.I. (http://www.mai.kuleuven.ac.be) . It looks intresting, I might check it out
[/off topic]

beege31337
03-24-2003, 03:17 PM
consciousness

Silvercord
03-24-2003, 07:37 PM
no beege, I'm sorry but that's impossible. Difficult implies possible.



I would say the hardest program to make is a well-written, robust, bug-free one.


Why is this thread continuing?
Seriously though,
I've always wanted to know exactly how to ray tracing for stenciled shadow volumes in GL (trace a ray until it gets to a surface, then trace along the surface(s) while tracing along the silhouette edge of the shadow volume). I would like to say that is most complicated, but then again I've never done it :(

*ClownPimp*
03-26-2003, 10:13 AM
>no beege, I'm sorry but that's impossible. Difficult implies possible.

Why would you say its impossible? It hasnt been done yet, but i think it will someday (in the very distant future)

Jeremy G
03-26-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by volk
Is programming an operating system the most challenging thing that can be programmed or is it one of those high-end 3D games? It's probably A.I., right?


An interactive, learning, cyber sex chat program. Mmmhmm. Yeah.

Silvercord
03-26-2003, 11:03 AM
Why would you say its impossible? It hasnt been done yet, but i think it will someday (in the very distant future)


It's not possible to program consciousness...you can write software to mimic it, but it will never be conscious in the sense that the computer itself will be aware...

hairyian
03-26-2003, 11:07 AM
Hmmm, the most challenging thing to program......

Once you get to a certain point there is no such thing as a challenging program. The actual programming is no longer hard, no matter what the problem is.

At that point, it's deciding exactly /what/ to program rather than the programming itself that is difficult. Programming a next generation AI is easy - if someone could give me an overview of how it worked in the first place.

I spend most of my time away from my keyboard scrawling on white-boards and on paper, trawling through books, hunting down journals to get the information I need to be able to know what the code needs to do. Once I've done that, the coding is the least interesting and least challenging of the activities needed.

Ian Woods

volk
03-26-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by hairyian
Hmmm, the most challenging thing to program......

Once you get to a certain point there is no such thing as a challenging program. The actual programming is no longer hard, no matter what the problem is.


Does everyone agree with this?

*ClownPimp*
03-26-2003, 02:03 PM
>It's not possible to program consciousness...you can write software to mimic it, but it will never be conscious in the sense that the computer itself will be aware...

yes, thats what you think. but _why_ do you think that?

adrianxw
03-26-2003, 02:05 PM
>>> Does everyone agree with this?

It is, of course, a totally valid point. If you know exactly how something is done, then programming it becomes just time consuming. Where I would be a little doubtful is in the word exactly. I've been in the business for 20+ years and have never yet seen a requirements specification which was anything like what was really needed.

There is also the matter of it being "challenging to code", (referring to the original question). That to a certain extent, depends upon the ability and experience of the programmer. Some things I routinely code may seem challenging to a 3 month novice for example.

Silvercord:

I agree with *ClownPimp*, eventually you reach a point where x and something mimicing x are indistinguishable.

volk
03-26-2003, 02:06 PM
Check out Steven Spielberg's movie, A.I.

Govtcheez
03-26-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by volk
For the love of all that's good and holy, DON'T check out Steven Spielberg's movie, A.I. Fixed it for you. I guess the alternative would be to just leave a half hour before the end. If you did that, it might be a pretty good movie.

volk
03-26-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
Fixed it for you. I guess the alternative would be to just leave a half hour before the end. If you did that, it might be a pretty good movie.

Ok, so what do you have against that movie?

Govtcheez
03-26-2003, 02:16 PM
I dunno - it wasn't bad, but the it should have stopped at the first ending (it's pretty apparent where that was going to be) instead of that into the future crap. Other than that, it wasn't that bad. Guess I was a little harsher than I meant on my quote, but the ending sucked, IMO.

volk
03-26-2003, 02:24 PM
I liked that forward-two-thousand-years-into-the-future part of the movie.

Though it's possible...uhh...obvious they did that so the teddy bear could use that lock of hair. :p

Silvercord
03-26-2003, 02:31 PM
I agree with *ClownPimp*, eventually you reach a point where x and something mimicing x are indistinguishable


Are we still talking about consciousness? If so, that still doesn't mean it is conscious. What I am getting at is this: you cannot actually program consciousness, you can only mimic it, but you can never actually create it. If you asked it if it was conscious, it would say "yes", but it wouldn't know that it is a computer programmed to answer "yes" when it's asked if it's conscious. It would just be responding how it was programmed to respond. Even if you can write software to run a humanoid robot, it may be impossible to tell it's not human, but that still doesn't mean it's conscious.

consciousness is being aware of your own environment and existence. Existence is a state of being. Can a computer ever be aware of its environment and state of being? No, it can only mimic being aware of its environment and state of being. I rest my case potato face.

Govtcheez
03-26-2003, 02:37 PM
> I liked that forward-two-thousand-years-into-the-future part of the movie.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I haven't seen the movie since it was in theaters; maybe if I saw it again I'd change my mind.

Silvercord: Saying something is "impossible" is a pretty tall statement. I see no reason a computer couldn't be made conscious, given enough time (I mean, I don't think we could do it now, but in the future...)

Silvercord
03-26-2003, 02:41 PM
Let me ask you this: would it still be called a computer if it is conscious? I still think there is a difference between having very high tech advanced software that accurately and convincingly mimics consciousness, and actually having a being that is conscious. If it is possible to create consciousness then the terminator movies just got a heck of a lot scarier.

Govtcheez
03-26-2003, 02:47 PM
> would it still be called a computer if it is conscious

What does that matter?

> I still think there is a difference between having very high tech advanced software that accurately and convincingly mimics consciousness, and actually having a being that is conscious.

Of course there is, but that doesn't make it impossible to make a conscious computer.

> the terminator movies just got a heck of a lot scarier.

No, d00d, we still have Arnold and the kid from American History X.

adrianxw
03-26-2003, 03:03 PM
>>> and actually having a being that is conscious.

You are simply a conscious bundle of proteins and miscellaneous other molecules. To return to the point made earlier, if you understood the mechanisms involved completely, there is no reason why you should not be able to code it up.

There may be certain philosophical/theological reservations against calling such a system "conscious", but that is pandering to the primitive in my opinion.

beege31337
03-26-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Silvercord
[B]no beege, I'm sorry but that's impossible. Difficult implies possible.



Why is that not possible?
I have a degree in Psychology and a degree in Computer Science and I can't see any reason why the human brain is capable of doing anything a computer cannot.

*ClownPimp*
03-26-2003, 03:59 PM
>It would just be responding how it was programmed to respond

some may argue that us humans respond in much the same way

>No, it can only mimic being aware of its environment and state of being

why is it that being on a computer it is only 'mimicking' awareness. Whether awareness is brought about by bits or by neurons, its still awareness. The 'implementation' doesnt change the end result

Silvercord
03-26-2003, 04:25 PM
I have a degree in Psychology and a degree in Computer Science and I can't see any reason why the human brain is capable of doing anything a computer cannot.


Well aside from this consciousness argument you'd better hit the books Don Quijote. Just from my own personal reading (especially from Dragons of Eden by Carl Sagan) I've learned that the human brain is actually more powerful on various axes. If you're talking about raw processing power the human brain wins because there are so many neurons. You can think of each neuron as a bit because it is either sending a signal, or it isn't. I did these calculations over a year ago and I don't have the papers anymore (I need to find my book to get the accepted number of Neurons per brain) but rest assured the values I came up with were still quite a ways ahead of any personal computer (yes, the super mainframe computers are capable of out - processing the human brain, and I'm sure that in 5 years personal computers will also be able to out process the human brain).

I'm still having a hard time deciding for myself if you can program consciousness. If consciousness is being aware of your existence, and existence is being, then what exactly is the being that the computer would be conscious of? I mean, would it know it's a system of silicon wafers? Would it be able to program itself? Would it be able to remanufacture itself and take over the world only to get its butt kicked by Arnold Smazzafraazawazzaafoo?

*ClownPimp*
03-26-2003, 06:06 PM
>I mean, would it know it's a system of silicon wafers?

Perhaps. But if it didnt, would it matter? Only recently were we aware that our brains are just bundles of neurons. But without that knowlegde, we are no less 'aware' of our existence.

>Would it be able to remanufacture itself and take over the world only to get its butt kicked by Arnold Smazzafraazawazzaafoo?

Why not? Thats what we did :p. Although I dont think any of us would stand a chance

beege31337
03-26-2003, 06:58 PM
Well aside from this consciousness argument you'd better hit the books Don Quijote. Just from my own personal reading (especially from Dragons of Eden by Carl Sagan) I've learned that the human brain is actually more powerful on various axes.

Well I have read the Dragons of Eden, And I'm not saying that there are currently computers which have the power of a human brain, but have no doubt that computers ( alone or as part of large grid networks ) will surpass the brains ability someday.
The fact of the matter is that the brain has limits of size and complexity that will likely not change much, but improvements in computer systems are not as limited.

And also, I've read Don Quiote too and I have no idea why you would be comparing me to him.

beege31337
03-26-2003, 07:04 PM
keep in mind, also, that you don't have to create a human to create consciousness, you just have to create a simple being(s) and allow it to evolve it's own complexity.

Silvercord
03-26-2003, 07:39 PM
And also, I've read Don Quiote too and I have no idea why you would be comparing me to him.


because he attacks windmills :)

and it is quijote or quixote (wow I'm just lining everyone up and executing them with my govtcheeze-esque a-holeness)

I would like to say that I (finally) agree with you guys(mercy! mercy!), that I guess when you come right down to it there is no reason why a computer cannot be programmed to have consciousness. It's really mind bending, but it seems possible because humans are more or less 'programmed' and are really only following their own built in methods and variables. I guess it depends how you define consciousness. As someone said there's a point where mimicking consciousness crosses over into being consciousness, but that won't be until the size of the 'being class' is as large as the human genome class :)


...dood that would be awesome .....we should start programming a being class....maybe it will have SEX with me!

*ClownPimp*
03-26-2003, 08:07 PM
>we should start programming a being class....maybe it will have SEX with me!

*thinking*
...
where would you put your... oh nevermind! :p

beege31337
03-26-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by Silvercord
because he attacks windmills :)


i think he was faking it,
but I guess only "Cervantes" (if anyone) knows for sure.

adrianxw
03-27-2003, 02:11 AM
Most machines have a drive for a 3.5 inch floppy.

<legalistic exclusion clause>This is a simple statement of fact and if anyone connects that fact to anything else in this thread then that is their business.</legalistic exclusion clause>

volk
03-27-2003, 06:34 AM
You people are amusing.

Silvercord
03-27-2003, 01:33 PM
You people are amusing.


ja das gut Volk

Silvercord
03-27-2003, 03:23 PM
most challenging thing to program


a postgram!

volk
03-27-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Silvercord
ja das gut Volk

????? :confused: ?????

Silvercord
03-27-2003, 06:20 PM
volk is a german word, it's the equivalent of people, or 'the people' (as in a society).

volkswagon means something like car/vehicle for the people

I don't take german but I think 'ja das gut' means 'yes that's good' but I'm not sure

govtcheeze is a communist

minesweeper
03-27-2003, 06:45 PM
>>govtcheeze is a communist<<

That's the 2nd time you slated cheez in this thread, what's he done to you? :)

Leave him alone you big bully, if what you say is true about him being a communist then he must be having a tough life living in America :D

volk
03-27-2003, 06:47 PM
>>govtcheeze is a communist

Where did that come from?

Silvercord
03-27-2003, 07:50 PM
That's the 2nd time you slated cheez in this thread, what's he done to you?


Nothing really, I just like picking on him, and he's one of those people that doesn't seem to care :). You should see how my friends treat one another. One of my overweight friends gets blamed whenever something is missing...we say he ate it.

someone: "Oh my god charles (that's me) you have no feelings towards other people!"
me: "Well, I used to have feelings, but Jon ate them!"

teacher: " where did my computer go?"
someone: "Jon ate it!"



Where did that come from?


me

Govtcheez
03-27-2003, 08:01 PM
> he's one of those people that doesn't seem to care

I was gonna reply, but I've been crying in the corner of my room all day long.

RoD
03-27-2003, 08:06 PM
He has, its rlly quite sad

volk
03-27-2003, 08:16 PM
Hehehe.

Silvercord
03-27-2003, 08:35 PM
I was gonna reply, but I've been crying in the corner of my room all day long.

my chemistry teacher said my phosphate molecule looked like it had nipples!