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Silvercord
03-18-2003, 04:32 PM
I doubt either side will ever 'give out', but do you think a Palestinian state will ever be made? Do you think creating a Palestinian state will actually stop the fighting?

Stoned_Coder
03-18-2003, 04:34 PM
no.cant see israel giving up land freely.
doubt it. they will prolly fight over religion instead.

Vber
03-18-2003, 04:37 PM
>>I doubt either side will ever 'give out', but do you think a Palestinian state will ever be made?

At least for now, no! Now the governament of Israel is 100% right (well here we call right those who are against the arab's and don't want to give them a state) and the leader is Sharon, from Likud. With Likud there is other 2 groups, "Shinui" (change) and "Torat emet", it's a little bit difficult to believe that something like that will happen.

The arabs want's the 67 order, and in 67 Israel were so small like 40% smaller than he is today, it's impossible.

>>Do you think creating a Palestinian state will actually stop the fighting?

No, Barak, One of the previous primer minister of Israel gave Hebron and others important places to palestines and what we received from them? terror, terror and terror.

Israel will fight and win, actually israel can "clean" all this cities like ramalah, hebron, gush katif, aza, in few days, that's not our point, we don't want to kill innocents, we want to kill the perverts like, Nassrala (Tanzim), Ahmad Yasin (Hamas) and yasser arafat.

After Israel Mosad's kill this guys, the palestine people will be free and I'm quite sure, that all this war will end, you know not all palestians are like that pervert, they do this cuz they are under the hands of this terrorists, and they don't have any option. Our war is not against those civilians.

Silvercord
03-18-2003, 06:38 PM
I meant to ask the moderator's to not let vber post anything on this thread on the grounds that
1) he is sick and demented
and
2) he is an Israeli, so his opinions are going to be biased

Vber
03-18-2003, 06:47 PM
What the hell I told wrong this time? ohh common man.
>>1) he is sick and demented
No comment...

>>2) he is an Israeli, so his opinions are going to be biased
I'm not an Israeli, I live in Israel, but I was born In brazil.

>>I meant to ask the moderator's to not let vber post anything on this thread on the grounds that

Ask... I just want to understand what is wrong with my post, can any admin reply me? or show me in the rules of the Cprogramming board, what for god damn sake is wrong here with the post?

XSquared
03-18-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Silvercord
I meant to ask the moderator's to not let vber post anything on this thread on the grounds that
1) he is sick and demented
and
2) he is an Israeli, so his opinions are going to be biased

So you're saying that if someone posts a thread about C vs C++, no C++ or C programmers should be allowed to reply to it because 'they are C++ or C programmers, so their opinions are going to be biased'?

Govtcheez
03-18-2003, 06:58 PM
> what for god damn sake is wrong here with the post?

Nothing at all... Don't pay any attention to Silvercord.

XSquared
03-18-2003, 07:00 PM
>>Don't pay any attention to Silvercord.

Sure thing.

the Wookie
03-18-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Vber

Israel will fight and win, actually israel can "clean" all this cities like ramalah, hebron, gush katif, aza, in few days, that's not our point, we don't want to kill innocents, we want to kill the perverts like, Nassrala (Tanzim), Ahmad Yasin (Hamas) and yasser arafat.
that also includes "cleaning" teenagers who throw rocks at tanks, which do absolutly NO harm?

Govtcheez
03-18-2003, 07:05 PM
> Now the governament of Israel is 100% right

Oh yeah? They killed an American Sunday who was trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer from tearing down a Palestinian physician's house. The bulldozer ran her over.

Keen.

This is neat, too


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1840809.stm


Earlier in the day, a Palestinian man who was taking his pregnant wife to hospital, was shot dead at an Israeli army checkpoint in the West Bank. The Palestinians are doing awful things, but the Israelis certainly aren't saints.

FillYourBrain
03-18-2003, 07:14 PM
my understanding was that this woman's goal was to put herself in harms way as a human shield. She did this and died. She also did this with full knowledge that the bulldozer had shielding which prevented full visibility (there because those wonderful arabs like to pick off Jews at every opportunity).

She was no saint and her accidental death was a result of her own foolishness.

Govtcheez
03-18-2003, 07:21 PM
> the bulldozer had shielding which prevented full visibility

Gee, wonder where she is

Commander
03-18-2003, 09:59 PM
not many ppl wonder why the suicide bombers do what they do, and this message goes to people who thinks that they do what they do because they are nuts.....you'r nuts.

why would someone blow themselves up like that?????? i agree it's a dumb thing to do and it's against all of my conscience, but what do you expect someone to fightback with when they don;t even have money to buy food and when they other side comes with armoured vehicles and tanks?

zahid
03-18-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Vber
we don't want to kill innocents, we want to kill the perverts like, Nassrala (Tanzim), Ahmad Yasin (Hamas) and yasser arafat.



I wander to see your bravery and hope. You uncovered your identification. I am sorry to hear it from you. You know? This is why you people will rarely enjoy the peace. But yeah, life will go on.

We are lucky, hope will never happen in our life.

ohh.. I forgot. Because of this type of opinion or statement anyone can do ... okay let me explain it. No... forget it. Don't want to inhale the air from hell.

BMJ
03-19-2003, 02:00 AM
So do the Israelis play the McKoys or the Hatfields?

That's how I see it anyway. Only more violent and sad.

Vber
03-19-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by the Wookie
that also includes "cleaning" teenagers who throw rocks at tanks, which do absolutly NO harm?

No, read my text again, we just want to kill the leader of the extremists groups.

>>my understanding was that this woman's goal was to put herself in harms way as a human shield. She did this and died. She also did this with full knowledge that the bulldozer had shielding which prevented full visibility (there because those wonderful arabs like to pick off Jews at every opportunity).

Correct, exactly, cheez, read the news again, maybe you'll find more info, is just like now I'll go to iraq, and try to stop american tanks by putting myself on the floor.


>>Oh yeah? They killed an American Sunday who was trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer from tearing down a Palestinian physician's house. The bulldozer ran her over.

hell, I explained what means right!!! it's not right from correct! it's right from politics, WE CALL HERE RIGHT ("YAMIN") (Different of left) those who are agains't giving to the palestine a place here in israel.
LEFT CENTER RIGHT
>>not many ppl wonder why the suicide bombers do what they do, and this message goes to people who thinks that they do what they do because they are nuts.....you'r nuts.

They do that cuz they have no option, and this is what I wrote in my text, once we kill the leaders, I think this war will stop.

minesweeper
03-19-2003, 02:28 AM
>>They do that cuz they have no option, and this is what I wrote in my text, once we kill the leaders, I think this war will stop.<<

You really think that? Or could it be that someone else will just take their place.

Vber
03-19-2003, 02:30 AM
minesweeper, their place? bul$$$$, this place is our since 1967! We gave them a lot of important places, and really important, strategic's place like Hebron, Tzafon, and they really don't stop.

Vber
03-19-2003, 02:34 AM
Cheez, let's learn a little bit about politics in Israel:
LEFT - Is those who want peace, they sit now in opposition trying to blow down the governament.
CENTER - those who don't have a fixed opinion, if they see the only way to exit from this thing is war, they will support war, else, they will be against the war.
RIGHT - those who have a fixed opinion, not to give any place from israel to the palestine, and when things goe's bad, like a lot of terror attacks, they go, break up rammalah and stay there somedays.

when I wrote RIGHT I didn't mean "correct", is just position, we call them here like that.

Jeremy G
03-19-2003, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by Silvercord
I doubt either side will ever 'give out', but do you think a Palestinian state will ever be made? Do you think creating a Palestinian state will actually stop the fighting?
It matters naught, for the apocalypse is here! The end is nye!


Comon, a war mongering president, plagues (sudden attack of the wierd pnomnia [sp]), homlessness, the UN with 7 major countries united in peace, and one now 'disagreeing with UN' (us), I'm tellin ya, if any new Home Security legislation makes citizens wear a barcode on the right hand, Im outa here, heading to the next (foriegn) church and praying for my redemption!!!


THis is all a little sarcastic, but you have to admit, for a religious person this would be pretty good omen for oblivion no?

SourceCode
03-19-2003, 02:57 AM
THis is all a little sarcastic, but you have to admit, for a religious person this would be pretty good omen for oblivion no?

I guess yea, it would depend on how that person views the entire situation. I mean there has always been disease, look at AIDS. There have always been war mongering leaders in history and there has always been homelessness. And of course, there has and will always be fanatics who think the end of the world is near.:cool:

Jeremy G
03-19-2003, 03:31 AM
Youve got a point there SourceCode.

But heres the thing, there were a lot of predictions about the year 2000 being the end of the world. Damn, I can never remember that stupid guys name, that made all the predictions in versus (quatrains).

Any way, MY math taking into account that the CLOCK of 24 hours excludes 7 minutes every day (the full time for one rotation) puts the year 2000 at 2003. :P

Clues are falling together *shivers in his boots*

Oh yeh, Nostradomas (sp).

no-one
03-19-2003, 03:58 AM
>not many ppl wonder why the suicide bombers do what they do, and this message goes to people who thinks that they do what they do because they are nuts.....you'r nuts.

why would someone blow themselves up like that?????? i agree it's a dumb thing to do and it's against all of my conscience, but what do you expect someone to fightback with when they don;t even have money to buy food and when they other side comes with armoured vehicles and tanks?
<

well i guess bombs are cheaper than food nowa days.

> their place? bul$$$$, this place is our since 1967!

i think you mis-understand he meant that if you kill off one leader or an entire group somebody else will replace him/them.

dbgt goten

when was the last time you read revelation? i think a little while hmm?

>Oh yeh, Nostradomas (sp).

Nostradamus, was chump, the more i hear about him the more amazed i am that anyone believes it, i thought at first like everyone else there might be something to him, but research told otherwise.

about every major war has been call armageddon...but at least someone.. so the cycle continues.

FillYourBrain
03-19-2003, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
> the bulldozer had shielding which prevented full visibility

Gee, wonder where she is Cheez, the point is she put herself in front of a large piece of machinery during a military operation. If I did that I would expect to die. I can't shed a tear for her, sorry.

Additionally, when you intentionally become a "human shield" don't you cease to be a non-military entity? It would seem that you have made a decision to fight in some form. I would submit that it makes her a lot less of a civilian casualty.

the Wookie
03-19-2003, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by Vber
No, read my text again, we just want to kill the leader of the extremists groups. sure, you say one thing but do another.

and the point isnt that she stood in front of the bulldozer, its that she got run over by the bulldozer which did see her and refused to stop. they even knew she was an american. i guess the destruction of someones home was more important than saving the life of a woman.

and israel has killed many of the palestinian leaders...it hasn't stopped..if anything, it's increased. violence doesnt help stop violence, not in this case, it only makes it worse, and neither side can just stfu and work the dammed thing out.

Clyde
03-19-2003, 07:49 AM
The idea that killing the Palestinian leaders will stop the suicide bombers is so stupid that it actually hurts to read it.

Vber
03-19-2003, 07:54 AM
Clyde, ok, can you see any better thing to do? well, just forget giving places in israel, cuz this won't happen.

If someone have a better opinion I'll be happy to hear, remember, no giving terrains.

Vber
03-19-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by the Wookie
sure, you say one thing but do another.

and the point isnt that she stood in front of the bulldozer, its that she got run over by the bulldozer which did see her and refused to stop. they even knew she was an american. i guess the destruction of someones home was more important than saving the life of a woman.

and israel has killed many of the palestinian leaders...it hasn't stopped..if anything, it's increased. violence doesnt help stop violence, not in this case, it only makes it worse, and neither side can just stfu and work the dammed thing out.


>>which did see her and refused to stop
he didn't saw here, that's it. you cannot know it, so don't tell things you don't know, or you cannot prove it.

Govtcheez
03-19-2003, 07:59 AM
Look at the picture I posted, Vber. He's either blind or deaf, because she's in front of him w/ a bullhorn.

the Wookie
03-19-2003, 08:03 AM
from looking at the picture that Govtcheez posted, you must be blind not to be able to see. and there also would be other people around hte bulldozer, such as soldiers protecting it, and other construction workers, they must have seen it too. but still, they didn't stop. a bulldozer just doesnt go around by its own taking things down, there are always people to guide and make sure nothing gets in the way.

Vber
03-19-2003, 08:05 AM
you don't know what's happened there, neither me, you cannot prove nothing with these pictures. I cannot judge the guy, I don't know what really happened there, neither YOU don't know.

Govtcheez
03-19-2003, 08:08 AM
> I don't know what really happened there, neither YOU don't know.

Alright then - I'll stop saying I know when you stop saying that you do.

Vber
03-19-2003, 08:11 AM
Well, we don't know, so this won't take us to any place, until you prove me what's really happened there, cuz I can't prove you anything.

Indian_fan
03-19-2003, 08:32 AM
as a follow-up to the solution thread ...

The palestinians want an independent state, so be it. Current borders should be freezed and made an international border. And till such time as things return to normal, the border should be monitored by the International Peace Keeping Force.

Vber
03-19-2003, 08:36 AM
Ok Indian_Fan, maybe your solution would work, but we tried it once, with Ehud Barak, a previous primer minister, we gave important places, and the palestines told they will stop the terror, they received their terrains, but they didn't stopped the terrorism, and this is true (and sad...).

Maybe just like you said, if the territorie would be monitored by International Peace Keeping Force, this could be a little bit better, I don't think they will accept this.

adrianxw
03-19-2003, 08:58 AM
>>> they received their terrains, but they didn't stopped the terrorism, and this is true (and sad...).

If memory serves, it also didn't stop the Israeli's in those areas continuing to illegally expand their townships.

>>> Current borders should be freezed and made an international border.

I doubt the Jordanians and in particular the Syrians could accept that. Why should Syria for example, give away the strategically important Golan Heights, which basically overlook Damascus, their capital, to anyone?

I think the current "borders" with "Palestine" split between the West Bank and Gaza are impractical as well.

Vber
03-19-2003, 09:01 AM
>>If memory serves, it also didn't stop the Israeli's in those areas continuing to illegally expand their townships.

Could you please tell me where currently is israel working in expanding their area illegally, well, I live here and I don't know any info about this.

adrianxw
03-19-2003, 09:18 AM
I wasn't talking about expanding their border. What I was refering to was the expansion of Jewish settlements on the West bank, (Jordan).

Vber
03-19-2003, 09:27 AM
Well, what you're talking is correct, but this don't happen anymore today, the governament here don't support this anymore, and this was the most important cause to the break of the previous governament, because the previo's one, supported those collonys, the new one, don't give them money and removed all the soldiers from those places.

Silvercord
03-19-2003, 10:15 AM
I personally think a Palestinian state should be made, but I am not as educated about the History of pre and post Palestine.

Something none of you realize is that for the most part Palestinian and Israeli versions of events are completely different. They were educated differently. That's a big reason why I didn't want any biases entered into this thread. One of my friends, Rachel Culley, wrote this article about her experience at seeds of peace where she worked with both Palestinians and Israelis:
http://www.mideastweb.org/sop.htm

Vber
03-19-2003, 10:37 AM
Well Silvercord, your friend Rachel wrote a lot of right things, but this happens when this isn't in israel or palestine.

So what, I lived 12 years in brazil and there I lived with A LOT of arabs, and they were like brother's to me, damn they were good friends. Here in Israel you won't find any arab that want to be your friend, well, actually I have an Palestine friend, Sahid, he is a good guy and with this people we don't have problem, and he live's in our territory, but if now we wanted to live in their territory it's impossible, they would kill you.

I understand your point, and I can understand perfectly your idea, you want an Palestinian state in Israel, it's ok, this won't happen never, be sure, and I think it's a little sad, but this wont happen, Israel won't give her territory without any war.

My mind changed when I came into Israel, things change's, I saw from close what's really happens here, in Brazil I didn't know this. When I came here it took 3 days to see my first terrorist attack and 1 month to be in a terrorist attack (I was lucky, I was just 1 day in hospital), I'm sure that after this happens to you, automatically you change your opinion.

The Israelis and Arabs that lives here NEVER will join in peace, they from 67 are in war, always had terrorists attacks.

I can't see how a Palestinian state can help, because they want Jerusalem as their capital, and this will never ever happens, for sure.

I don't say what Israel do is correct, neither what Palestine doe's. Check out in stats how many palestine we killed (something like 75% were terrorists or leaders of islamic groups). And checkout how many citizens they killed (something like 32% were soldiers). Even the primer minister here don't see any way to solve this problem, the only one is WAR. This words are from the primer minister. They tell the same, Hamas, Jihad, Tanzim, same thing they want war.

So why they are covards and attack civilians? why they don't try to attack IDF?

About Rachel Culley, well she have's experience working with arabs and israelis that aren't right now living this war... she haven't more experience than me, or any israeli that live here right now.

Vber
03-19-2003, 10:41 AM
Ohh by the way, before 35 mins an Israeli citizen were killed by a terrorist...

Silvercord
03-19-2003, 10:58 AM
well I dont' know what to say right now, this thread was supposed to be speculation as to what might happen in Israel. About the Palestinian state, I agree with you; the Palestinians won't ever be happy because they truly will not get Jerusalem, period. So even if we created a Palestinian state the terrorist attacks would not end. One thing Rachel has that you don't is first hand talks with both Palestinians and Israelis (and not just a few, she's spoken with a lot of them). You said it yourself; they would likely kill you. That seems like such a rare thing, talking with both Palestinians and Israelis in the same room, and surprisingly they both had different accounts of the same events in History.

On a different note, I'm sorry about your injuries, I really am. I don't wish violence upon anyone, that's why I want a solution to the problems in Israel. I think ultimately both sides have suffered greatly. The suffering is so great it is a moot point to argue which side has suffered worse. How bad were your injuries, and how did it take place (where were you when it happened?)

Vber
03-19-2003, 11:21 AM
How bad were your injuries, and how did it take place (where were you when it happened?)


Well, it was just my second time in Jerusalem, it was the "Sbarro suicide attack" it was in August 9, 2001, 15 people killed, 7 of them were childrens, from age 2 until 16-17. One Brazilian and one american were killed too. I was walking with my brother at the side of the Sbarro Pizzaria, when this happened, I didn't injurie so bad, broken parts of the window from the Pizzaria fell on my face, the doctor said I was lucky, it didn't fall in my eyes. My brother didn't injurie too much. A lady that was near us died in the way of the hospital Frieda Mendelsohn.

It wasn't a good experience for me, but's ok, now I'm better, and thank you for asking :)

Silvercord
03-19-2003, 01:12 PM
It wasn't a good experience for me, but's ok, now I'm better, and thank you for asking


Well, that seems like quite an understatement; I would probably be nothing short of paranoid/shocked/completely freaked out. I'm glad you are ok. I'm sad for those that were killed. I don't think violence is a way to solve anything, but on the other hand I doubt I would have any pacifistic feelings if my family or a friend was killed by someone else. Cripes, problems with people are so difficult to solve. You can't really rationalize with either side of a conflict like this, because they both hate each other so much. Did anyone watch the True Life on MTV the other day? They followed around Israeli soldiers as well as Palestinian civilians. The scary part is when you get right down to it they both just wanted to not live in fear and go on with their lives; things I hope they all get someday.


EDIT:
Do you guys think the Palestinians should have been kicked out in the first place? The following facts are true:
1) The Jews were living in the area of Israel before the Palestinians (this was in ancient times). They were kicked out by the Romans.
2) The Jews have always been a persecuted people, with the Holocaust and being kicked out by the Romans and countless other violations.

Keeping those two things in mind, did that warrant kicking out the Palestinians?

Clyde
03-19-2003, 02:43 PM
"Keeping those two things in mind, did that warrant kicking out the Palestinians?"

HELL NO

no-one
03-19-2003, 04:07 PM
>
Do you guys think the Palestinians should have been kicked out in the first place? The following facts are true:
1) The Jews were living in the area of Israel before the Palestinians (this was in ancient times). They were kicked out by the Romans.
2) The Jews have always been a persecuted people, with the Holocaust and being kicked out by the Romans and countless other violations.

Keeping those two things in mind, did that warrant kicking out the Palestinians?
<

well, who can say, on the simplest of answers no, but there are so many sides to this conflict, its just hard to say.

but whats done is done, only thing that gonna stop this is armageddon... hehe

Govtcheez
03-19-2003, 06:30 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,917178,00.html

Woohoo - the Israeli army broke up her funeral with teargas, sonic grenades AND A FSCKING TANK!

thePope
03-20-2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
> the bulldozer had shielding which prevented full visibility

Gee, wonder where she is

How do you know that was taken just before she was run over?

adrianxw
03-20-2003, 02:18 AM
The many eye witnesses and photographers present say that the bulldozer continued it's advance pushing the protestors along as it went. The protestors then took cover inside the building which was then demolished by the said bulldozer killing the girl in the process.

Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2856433.stm) is one account, search, there are many. There were a lot of cameramen present because it was a high profile action.