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View Full Version : Well at least they haven't arrested anyone for wearing peace tshirts. Wait a second



Silvercord
03-05-2003, 02:17 PM
Hmmm (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=519&ncid=519&e=1&u=/ap/20030305/ap_on_re_us/mall_activists_6)

minesweeper
03-05-2003, 02:28 PM
That's got to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Especially as the shirt was made at that mall.

So much for freedom of speech.

-=SoKrA=-
03-05-2003, 02:28 PM
The world is crazy. And the worst thing is that they make up an excuse. But, why were they asked to leave in the first place? The t-shirts!

"No matter what you do, someone will complain" -something I just made up.

abrege
03-05-2003, 02:38 PM
That's pretty sad


Originally posted by -=SoKrA=-
"No matter what you do, someone will complain" -something I just made up.
You are a very wise man...

adrianxw
03-05-2003, 03:03 PM
I can't remember who said it but, "For each and every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism".

We have had a weird case over here as well. A pizza shop of all places, put a sign up on there door saying because of the anti-Iraq action stance of France, Germany and Belgium, they would not serve customers from those countries any more, (this pizza place is in a touristy area). The owners have been arrested for racial discrimination. I'd post the link, but it is in Danish so probably of limited use.

Zewu
03-05-2003, 03:15 PM
Well, there are some who can use it. Please post it.

dP munky
03-05-2003, 03:30 PM
im wondering if it was something else besides the shirt, i mean it seems kinda wierd that a cop would come up to you in the mall and say, "take off your shirt or leave".....that makes no sense??

-=SoKrA=-
03-05-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by adrianxw
The owners have been arrested for racial discrimination
Well... it is illegal. Quoting my RE teacher: "The 1976 Race Relations Act makes it unlawful to discriminate against anyone or promote racial hatred".
What I don't understand is the logic behind the shop's owner's decission. It's not the turists' fault that their country is going to war. Plus it's illegal and they lose clients.

There was also this guy, muslim 'religious leader' (can't remember what they're called) who provoqued(sp?) a riot in a mosque. He was banned from preaching. BTW, it was down in London or Manchester I think. Wait a minute... was it in Spain? Traveling so much from country to country isn't good for my memory.

abrege: I know that because of personal experience. There's this girl in my Science lessons that is allways trying to outsmart me and make look stupid. She's very competitive (and I think it's only against me)
Some people don't learn. I'm too lucky to be seriously outsmarted...

confusion
03-05-2003, 03:37 PM
somebody asks you to take off your shirt in public and you do ! what kind of a law do you have ? ... does that apply to women too :D


aside: I was trying to post with the name 'confused' and this is what it threw back at me

That username is already in use. If you are confused and you have forgotten your password, click here.

confusion
03-05-2003, 03:38 PM
LOL ... (forgot to add it to the end of the previous post)

Govtcheez
03-05-2003, 03:52 PM
> that makes no sense??

If you would have read the article, it would have - the mall's private property. They have the right to throw out people. If someone came into my house with a shirt that said "Turn Iraq into a parking lot", I would have thrown them out. It's the same thing.

> Well... it is illegal.

I can't help but notice you don't live in the same country as adrian. There're different laws...

minesweeper
03-05-2003, 04:05 PM
>>There was also this guy, muslim 'religious leader' (can't remember what they're called) who provoqued(sp?) a riot in a mosque. He was banned from preaching. BTW, it was down in London or Manchester I think. Wait a minute... was it in Spain? Traveling so much from country to country isn't good for my memory.<<

It was here in London at the Finsbury Park mosque. I think he was banned under these new counter-terrorism laws some way or another.

>>> Well... it is illegal.

I can't help but notice you don't live in the same country as adrian. There're different laws...<<

This could be an EU law, so it applies right across Europe. Don't know though so could be wrong. But this is the sort of thing that is now coming under EU law.

Govtcheez
03-05-2003, 04:10 PM
An EU law was made in 1976? Did some laws carry over, or what?

minesweeper
03-05-2003, 04:18 PM
:D Well spotted. Teach me to read posts properly. Though this kind of thing could actually be an EU law, I doubt it would have been passed in 1976.

-=SoKrA=-
03-05-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
I can't help but notice you don't live in the same country as adrian. There're different laws...
It looked like it was an international law but I've just noticed it's just for the UK. Sorry for the confusion.
Well, even if it's not. It should be illegal. I'd imagine that most goverments have laws that go along the same lines.

At least the Finsbury Park guy is under this law, but I guess they'll try to shut him up with whatever they can. Not sure exactly what it was but apparently it was big.

Fountain
03-05-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by -=SoKrA=-
It looked like it was an international law but I've just noticed it's just for the UK. Sorry for the confusion.
Well, even if it's not. It should be illegal. I'd imagine that most goverments have laws that go along the same lines.

At least the Finsbury Park guy is under this law, but I guess they'll try to shut him up with whatever they can. Not sure exactly what it was but apparently it was big.

You mean what did he do? Well, he preached stuff like its ok to kill non muslims, UK/US are scum who deserve to die, Saddam is a cool guy etc etc.

The best bit is he was scrounging (illegally AND legally) STATE benefits from the UK, living for free yet still saying kill us all (Brits).

What the hell is the world coming to? Give that kind of scum my taxes? Yeh right. :mad:

Unregd
03-05-2003, 06:35 PM
<sarcasm><!-- Yes, these times call for lots of it. -->
So what if this man was arrested for expressing his political views in public? We're at war here, and questionning the president is not helping our nation's efforts to monopolize the United Nations Security Council. Have you ever heard of the rule of law? It's when someone who isn't afraid to stand up to the liberal media and popular opinion comes in and shines the light of justice into every filthy crack around the globe. National boundaries are for the timid.

In this era of the terrorist around every corner, the personal liberties, those burdens we once dealt with, have been lifted by the world emancipator President George W. Bush. He is working so that we will be free to work, worship God, consume, and fuel the economy that supports our betters' luxurious lifestyle in security.

This is a democracy! If you don't like what U.S. government is doing for you, your nation, and the rest of the world, there is a prison down in Guantanamo Bay designed just for such treacherous idea-terrorists like you.
</sarcasm>

salvelinus
03-05-2003, 06:44 PM
Come on OSR, you don't have to use sarcasm tags! ;)

dP munky
03-06-2003, 12:35 AM
>>If you would have read the article, it would have - the mall's private property. They have the right to throw out people. If someone came into my house with a shirt that said "Turn Iraq into a parking lot", I would have thrown them out. It's the same thing

so then what the hell is everyone complaining about, if you throw someone out of your house because theyre wearing a tshirt you dont like than why cant the mall do the same?

novacain
03-06-2003, 01:04 AM
The point is the REASON they were thrown out, that being they were advocating peace (on their t-shirts). The malls ability/right to throw them out is irrelevant to the issue. They were not causing trouble or costing the mall custom. They were just wearing a t-shirt.

Could the mall say you can't come in if you have blue eyes ect? Or would they get hit with a racial discrimination suit?

Could McD's kick you out for wearing a 'vegetarian' t-shirt?

As the mall SOLD them the shirts, some of the tenants obviously though the shirt was OK.

Does the mall have a dress code posted?

Would they have been thrown out if they had been pro war t-shirts?

Why has being pro-peace become a trigger for discrimination?

face_master
03-06-2003, 02:04 AM
>> You are a very wise man...

I beg to differ...

adrianxw
03-06-2003, 02:35 AM
Zewu:

Here (http://www1.dr.dk/nyheder/Indland/article.jhtml?articleID=86100) is the original article. I'll try to find the follow up where they arrest the guy, odd, I searched DR, (Danmarks Radio), and couldn't find it. If you have the newspaper "Politiken" it was on yesterdays front page.

Others:

European Union stance on discrimination...

>>>
In 1986, the European Parliament, the Council, the Commission and the Member States' representatives in the Council signed a Declaration against Racism and Xenophobia. In this declaration, the European institutions "vigorously condemn all forms of intolerance, hostility and use of force against persons or groups of persons on the grounds of racial, religious, cultural, social or national differences".
<<<

... a summary of a much larger document of course, nothing the EU issues is less than five truckloads of paper! Hell I know, I've had to read great chunks of it!

dP munky
03-06-2003, 05:56 AM
>>They were not causing trouble or costing the mall custom. They were just wearing a t-shirt.

im not disagreeing w/you there, not at all, i just find it very odd that all of the sudden the gistapo come up to these "pro peace" guys and throw em out! its like an oxymoron or something...

here wear this really cool tshirt
:) wow! ok cool
you cant wear that thing in here GET OUT

am i the only one confused by this?

minesweeper
03-06-2003, 06:26 AM
>>here wear this really cool tshirt
wow! ok cool
you cant wear that thing in here GET OUT

am i the only one confused by this?<<

No, I though that was odd as well. If they are that hung up about it, why not ban the shop from selling it?

Who knows what goes on in the minds of some people.

Govtcheez
03-06-2003, 07:23 AM
> Could the mall say you can't come in if you have blue eyes ect? Or would they get hit with a racial discrimination suit?

It was a t-shirt - it wasn't his skin. That example's irrelevant.

> Could McD's kick you out for wearing a 'vegetarian' t-shirt?

Yes, if they thought you were disturbing their customers.

> Would they have been thrown out if they had been pro war t-shirts?

Probably not. Unless he was doing something to disturb the other shoppers.

I'm not saying I agree with what the mall owner did, but it was within his rights. That's all.

adrianxw
03-06-2003, 08:14 AM
Was the mall owner not discriminating against people because of their beliefs? Do you not have anti-discrimination laws in the US?

Govtcheez
03-06-2003, 08:21 AM
How was he discriminating? If, in his opinion (or in this case, the opinion of the security guard, who is paid to represent the owners interests, I suppose) the man was causing a disturbance, he was 100% in his right to have him removed from the premesis. They were asked to leave private property, and they refused. That's trespassing, and that's illegal.

jessie23
03-06-2003, 08:32 AM
i just hope that someone brings this up next time that our politicians in washington are trying to limit violence in video games and the media, when they are arresting someone wearing a peace t-shirt. maybe we have our priorities confused. what is the world coming too???

Govtcheez
03-06-2003, 08:36 AM
For the last time - he wasn't arrested for wearing a peace t-shirt - he was arrested for trespassing.

Try this:
Go to your local mall, strip naked, and start running around. You'll get arrested. Were you arrested for jogging? No, you were arrested for indecent exposure, which is a crime, the same as trespassing.

salvelinus
03-06-2003, 08:50 AM
Trespassing was the charge, the t-shirt was the reason. Blacks in Jim Crow South weren't prevented from voting because they were black. They couldn't pay the poll tax. He wasn't disturbing anyone, he was shopping. Like Jon Stewart said on the Daily Show, they don't have a problem wearing a shirt that says "Mustache rides- 5 cents".
Anyway, there's nothing illegal in the US against discriminating against someone based on their beliefs (except religious beliefs) and maybe a few other narrow exceptions (i.e., civil service jobs and political beliefs). There's at least one member of this board who I'd discriminate against every chance I got based on his loudmouth moronic beliefs.

Govtcheez
03-06-2003, 08:53 AM
> Trespassing was the charge, the t-shirt was the reason.

Right, but he wasn't arrested for just wearing the t-shirt - he could have left. If you want to trace it back further, trspassing was the charge, going to the mall was the reason.

> based on his loudmouth moronic beliefs.

C'mon - leave ober alone.

ober
03-06-2003, 08:55 AM
yeah... I WOULD HAVE ARRESTED THE GUY IF HE LOOKED AT ME WRONG...


(there... do you hate me more now?):p

adrianxw
03-06-2003, 09:26 AM
>>>
How was he discriminating? If, in his opinion (or in this case, the opinion of the security guard, who is paid to represent the owners interests, I suppose) the man was causing a disturbance, he was 100% in his right to have him removed from the premesis.
<<<

Was he not asked to leave because of his shirt then creating because he was asked to leave? His son removed his shirt and that was fine. It does not actually say they were causing any kind of disturbance in the article.

The question I was asking really is, in the US can someone that owns a place where it is normal for the public to be admitted, choose to exclude people because he dislikes their personal views on an issue?

To me at least, that would seem to be as discriminatory as asking Fenchmen to leave because they don't support the US, (the case with the pizza house I mentioned earlier), which is illegal under EU directives.

Govtcheez
03-06-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by adrianxw
The question I was asking really is, in the US can someone that owns a place where it is normal for the public to be admitted, choose to exclude people because he dislikes their personal views on an issue?Unfortunately, in the atmosphere we've had for the last year and a half, it appears to be that way.

salvelinus
03-06-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by adrianxw
The question I was asking really is, in the US can someone that owns a place where it is normal for the public to be admitted, choose to exclude people because he dislikes their personal views on an issue?
Generally, yeah, except for religious beliefs. There may be some exceptions in areas defined as places of public accomodation. And there have been cases where malls were argued to be public common spaces, but I don't know how they were decided.
I read earlier this morning that the mall owners are dropping the charges after all the publicity.

minesweeper
03-06-2003, 09:48 AM
>>Generally, yeah, except for religious beliefs.<<

This is something I don't understand, why does religion always have exceptions made for it? It is ok to discriminate against someone due to their beliefs as to whether or not another country should be bombed by the allied military but not due to their beliefs about God etc. Crazy if you ask me.

adrianxw
03-06-2003, 09:49 AM
>>> Unfortunately, in the atmosphere we've had for the last year and a half, it appears to be that way.

Wow.

salvelinus
03-06-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by minesweeper
>>Generally, yeah, except for religious beliefs.<<

This is something I don't understand, why does religion always have exceptions made for it? It is ok to discriminate against someone due to their beliefs as to whether or not another country should be bombed by the allied military but not due to their beliefs about God etc. Crazy if you ask me.
Religious exceptions are provided for in the Constitution. Many colonists came to America to escape religious persecution.
For that matter, many private places can discriminate on the basis of religion. When a private place is deemed to be actually place where public business is done the non-discrimination laws kick in. So restaurants, private employers, etc, can't discriminate against religion, race, etc.
Deeds on some houses have a clause forbidding sale to Jews, for example, but this is unenforceable.

dP munky
03-06-2003, 02:44 PM
>>Religious exceptions are provided for in the Constitution

the constitution says all men are created equal, but it took us 190 years before we kicked that part into effect

Silvercord
03-07-2003, 09:01 AM
charges were dropped, rightfully so