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View Full Version : Programmers getting lazy?



Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 09:02 AM
Something on GameDEV caught my eye



Many atime have I seen people come into this form with questions like "i want to make a game but i dont want to learn to program how do i do it please help me".

the problem with technology these days is that people who are new expect people to do the work for them. why dont you just tell me what type of game you want, and ill make it for you. the same thing is going on with web design. geocities, tripod, etc: all you have to do is click click click and theres a web page, and a crappy one at that. All over the place I see people taking the short way out.

A prime example is a fellow student in my high school AP C++ class. i was ragged on forever for making games ('specially by him) in visual basic. so i started in c++ and i actually like what has become of my game making knowledge, only to see him turn around and start using Game Maker. then once i tried to get him to use DirectX, he tries to use CMU graphics library (carnagie melon), and the fact that he cant get it to work is his excuse for not going out for the extra stretch in knowledge to actually learn something that will benefit them.

in the on-level c++ class, they are paying other people to write their programs. why would you sign up for a class if you dont bother learning the stuff?

some people, i believe, are in the programming for the glory, for the intellectual elitism they think they attain from calling themselves programmers, when in fact, they know little more, if any more knowledge than those they say they are better than.

what im trying to say is, people need to get off their lazy american asses and try learning something, doing things for themselves. no more game makers, no more click click click web makers, no more autoback stratchers and hand holding that programmers think they deserve.



I think at some point this guy is right, I do really detest those
create-a-game-or-website-with-one-click program's.
But i think he forgot to take into account the we keep
programming and an higher and higher level, So at one point
you indeed end up with a function called setpixel(x,y,color) wich
would've took a programmer ten years ago about 1 week to
create. Your thought on this...

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 09:08 AM
I don't really see a problem with it - things made by the point-n-click method are easy to distinguish from something coded from the ground up, and usually don't look nearly as good. Plus, maybe that'll get someone interested in doing real programming, so I don't see how that's a bad thing.

minesweeper
02-19-2003, 09:10 AM
>>no more game makers, no more click click click web makers<<

Surely someone had to program the game makers?

>>intellectual elitism<<

Wish I was known as this. Geek sounds more familiar. :D

ober
02-19-2003, 09:11 AM
Maybe someone should look into the fact that "back in the day", only people with desire and the tools and experience actually did any programming. Now soooo many more people have access to this stuff and people that are dabbling are making the rest of us, that don't go posting all over the web about it, look bad.

I don't think it's a decline in the quality, I think it's an influx of people who have no idea what they're getting into, and a lack of posts by people who know what they're doing and don't need the help.

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 09:12 AM
?, Well i thought he was quite right on the part that people
do less and less about programming, Expecting to write a game
within a month. Today a hello world requires 5 lines, Ten years
ago it would require hell-i-dont-know-how-many lines to get
that done, Bassicly you're a programmer if you can remember
5 lines, That worry's me...

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 09:12 AM
> the intellectual elitism they think they attain from calling themselves programmers

Said the man railing on people for not being "real" programmers. Am I the only one that thinks that's ironic?

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 09:14 AM
> Ten years ago it would require hell-i-dont-know-how-many lines to get that done

Um... five lines... C hasn't changed that much.

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by minesweeper
>>no more game makers, no more click click click web makers<<
Surely someone had to program the game makers?


Do you expect that wheyre going to make a new game maker
with that game maker so that other people can use this game
maker so build another game maker? Oke, That sucked..ehm...
What i ment is, There's no real progress if everybody keeps
using program's that aren't specificly designed for that task,
And on the designing front wheyre getting lazy......Just an opinion...

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
> Ten years ago it would require hell-i-dont-know-how-many lines to get that done

Um... five lines... C hasn't changed that much.

Oke, Different example, Printing a BMP with a library, Requires
about 15 lines now, That HAD to cost hell-i-dont-know-how-many lines 10 years ago;)

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 09:18 AM
Still, big deal, though. It's not like they're dragging down the industry - people who use game makers and think they're excellent programmers or something will find themselves grossly outclassed when they actually get into the world. It works itself out.

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 09:20 AM
Still, I think the people actually willing to go all the way get's
smaller and smaller and people like erhm...krak... start showing
up more and more.

minesweeper
02-19-2003, 09:21 AM
Isn't it just the same as anything in modern society? People can't be bothered anymore. Mcdonalds is the most popular restaurant in the world I believe cos it's quick and simple. Supermarkets are packed with microwave meals and the like. They are nowhere near as nice as a home-cooked meal with fresh meat and vegetables but people either can't be bothered with the hassle of cooking or don't have time.

It's the MTV generation.

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Travis Dane
Still, I think the people actually willing to go all the way get's
smaller and smaller and people like erhm...krak... start showing
up more and more. You think that because programming's more accessible to people, less people will be serious about it? Good logic.

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
You think that because programming's more accessible to people, less people will be serious about it? Good logic.

Erhm, What i was trying to say is...... I think the accesebility
was quite good a few years ago, And back then we din't had
so many krak cases? I think people will start to underestimate
programming because they got so used to using clicky-clicky
programs...

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 09:30 AM
It's unavoidable - the dot com boom made computer jobs glamorous. So, more people with no real interest in programming (and in all fairness to krak, he was really interested in programming, it's his other skills that were lacking) will show up. Like I said, though - it won't matter - if a person tries to sell something he made in klik-and-play (which has been around for a long ass time, btw - game construction kits are far from new) to a company, I think it's safe to say he'll get laughed out of the office. It works itself out; no one's going to lose a job because of it.

Silvercord
02-19-2003, 11:26 AM
Still, I think the people actually willing to go all the way get's
smaller and smaller and people like erhm...krak... start showing
up more and more.


I think the people actually willing to go all the way is actually increasing, due to the fact that information on computers is more accessible, but on the other hand the people are aren't willing to do the work is also increasing due to the same reason. More and more people are exposed to it, so you'll be getting more of both types of people.

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 11:35 AM
With people that want to go all the way i mean people that
acutally are prepared to put much effort,time and patience in it.

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 11:39 AM
Right... And I still don't see how people being exposed to clicky things are going to reduce that number. I also don't see how that could lower respect for programming as a profession.

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
Right... And I still don't see how people being exposed to clicky things are going to reduce that number. I also don't see how that could lower respect for programming as a profession.

Programmers are getting lazy of the clicky! Also they get used
to just clicking on stuff to create things and think theyre ready
to program just to notice that it's a major sitback compared to
clicky and so drop out eventually.

ober
02-19-2003, 12:38 PM
one thing that annoys me about you (among many).... and this is far off topic... but you always quote someone even tho their comment is directly above yours... NOT NECESSARY, I think we understand who you're replying to. :rolleyes:

GanglyLamb
02-19-2003, 12:59 PM
From what i see daily i can tell you all that lots of ppl think that programming is as easy as eatin-a-pie-on-a-hot-summerday.

Im not saying evryone thinks like that but in my class lots of ppl do. The only one who has ever told me that programming should be considered "not-"""that"""easy" was a collegue student who got straight A's evry time.

Mayb the world is just getting dumber and dumber by the minute :p

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 01:02 PM
Most people who think programming's really easy have never programmed in their lives, so their opinion of it's of little value. It's like me saying all you need to be a doctor is a sharp knife and bad handwriting.

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by ober5861
one thing that annoys me about you (among many).... and this is far off topic... but you always quote someone even tho their comment is directly above yours... NOT NECESSARY, I think we understand who you're replying to. :rolleyes:

I do that because some people don't like reading the entire
thread just to figure out what was ment in a reply so i include
the text i reply upon.

GanglyLamb
02-19-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
Most people who think programming's really easy have never programmed in their lives, so their opinion of it's of little value. It's like me saying all you need to be a doctor is a sharp knife and bad handwriting.
Righto that true.
To get back onto the doctor topic... im a very cheap doctor since i havent had to pay any studies to become one. U see my mom has a sharp knife and i have the bad handwriting... so i guess i could call myself a doctor .:D

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 01:58 PM
I also noticed alot lately that people are asking for a way that
(at least i) could come up after a bit of thinking to do certain things, Like how
to write a certain algorithme, Is it just me or is the level of
creative programmers going downhill?

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 01:59 PM
It's just you being an elitist jerk. Some people need help with programming - we're not all born Ritchie.

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
we're not all born Ritchie.

Ritchie? I ment some people ask to almost write an entire
program! I mean...come on....

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 02:01 PM
That's because some people don't understand programming at first or need help getting going. You seriously don't think people should be allowed to learn?

Eibro
02-19-2003, 02:02 PM
I read the first post, and all I have to say is: Don't worry about it.
Honestly, why would you care if someone wants to use a game maker to create games while you're using a real programming language?

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 02:03 PM
I know goddamnit! I'm under the impression some people just
don't try anymore and run off to the board asking, Most problems
i you can easely solve by a simple Google search.

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 02:04 PM
Lazy people are everywhere, in every occupation - it's not limited to programming. And I sincerely doubt that people ask questions because they grew up using Klik and Play or anything - some people are just lazy - accept that.

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Eibro
I read the first post, and all I have to say is: Don't worry about it.
Honestly, why would you care if someone wants to use a game maker to create games while you're using a real programming language?

Ofcourse i wouldn't notice it in the job market or anything, But
i think it's just not fun anymore help certain people not even
trying:(

Eibro
02-19-2003, 02:20 PM
You're not forced to help people are you?

Shadow12345
02-19-2003, 03:30 PM
elitism sucks

edit: I don't see what the big deal is with people using 'clicky' applications, if there's a job out there for it what does it matter?

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Eibro
You're not forced to help people are you?

Naah, But seeying "HELP!" and "CLICK HERE!" isn't that
motevating either is it?

KrAzY CrAb
02-19-2003, 03:53 PM
Am I the only one who like to program? I dont care what others do, I semi-enjoy it.. I will (I hope anyways) always be hired above a GameMaker 'programmer', so let them make cheapy products. Theres an overflow if Texteditors in VB and others like it because its EZ but they think they really made somthing good, and ya know what? Thats good for them, I wont tell thme "any moron could do that, idiot" or anything in life, as a programmer I will go far beyond them but I dont take there happyness away by telling them they are a bad programmer, let it go.

Xei
02-19-2003, 06:01 PM
I don't really care if anyone simplifies programming for other people. I don't even consider this 'easy-programming' which you speak of to be programming, but rather 'scripting'. Like, seriousely, do you see these 'scripters' taking skilled peoples jobs? I don't. Its like comparing VB to C++, or Assembly... the VB guy probably wont be getting your job. I think its safe to let the script-kiddies make their games ;)

Shadow12345
02-19-2003, 06:09 PM
I poop too much

Travis Dane
02-19-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Shadow12345
I poop too much

poop-=0.1 /* kg */ ;

Xei
02-19-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Shadow12345
I poop too much

Originally posted by Travis Dane
poop-=0.1 /* kg */ ;

Uh huh... lunatics.

Govtcheez
02-19-2003, 07:04 PM
> I poop too much

Hey, you win! You broke the thread, jackass!