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RoD
02-14-2003, 01:43 PM
The six year old sheep died, question is, should it have ever lived?

http://www.msnbc.com/news/872966.asp

Govtcheez
02-14-2003, 01:47 PM
> should it have ever lived?

Yes.

Next!

ammar
02-14-2003, 01:50 PM
> should it have ever lived?

No.

Next!

Silvercord
02-14-2003, 01:53 PM
I am of the belief that knowing how things work is a good thing, whether it be with some kind of mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, genetic engineering, computer engineering, the list goes on. Therefore I don't think the idea of cloning is a bad thing, because we may ultimately be able to discover a lot about ourselves, but when you start creating life only to have it die because of ignorance (what i mean is the scientists must have missed somethin somewhere along the line)l then you are getting into some very hot water. I think the cloning process will be slowed down by these deaths, but I don't think the research will ever be stopped.

ammar
02-14-2003, 01:55 PM
I also think that the research is not going to stop, and I beleive that knowing how things work is good, but that doesn't mean it's right to clone animals.

dP munky
02-14-2003, 01:57 PM
>>> should it have ever lived?

No!!

we can learn from cloning? i cant think of a posative thing that could come from making a genetic copy of an organism?

...and didnt we have this descussion about a month ago

RoD
02-14-2003, 02:04 PM
yea we did, but i thought since it died this would be good to continue, the discussion that is.

I believe in cloneing for science, i fear cloning for war and such..

Travis Dane
02-14-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by RoD
The six year old sheep died, question is, should it have ever lived?

Yes. Why wouldn't it?

Travis Dane
02-14-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by RoD
i fear cloning for war and such..

You've played too much "Red Alert 2 Yuri's revenge":p

RoD
02-14-2003, 02:06 PM
never heard of it.

Govtcheez
02-14-2003, 02:08 PM
> i fear cloning for war and such..

You're afraid we're going to be overrun with babies, or what?

Travis Dane
02-14-2003, 02:09 PM
By the time we're able to do cloning right we can already make
terminators so why go through the trouble?

RoD
02-14-2003, 02:13 PM
>>You're afraid we're going to be overrun with babies, or what?

I feel that if they can get cloning right enough to make copies of soldjers and stuff, they will be able to increase the age process :P

Govtcheez
02-14-2003, 02:16 PM
I can't believe anyone would buy into that BS. Even if that is ever possible, it certainly isn't now, and it's no reason to stop research.

edit: Maybe Dick Clark's proof that we have it in reverse, though.

Travis Dane
02-14-2003, 02:18 PM
Cloning has it advatages you know? Everybody seems to only
look in the dead cloned animals direction, But what about
being able to forever cloning for example a pig? No more
food shortage! Yeaaah!:rolleyes:

Silvercord
02-14-2003, 02:23 PM
No more
food shortage! Yeaaah!


That's exactly why I think cloning isn't such a bad thing. You guys are just thinking of 'copy and pasting organisms' I'm talking about the potential knowledge we could gain from learning about genetics, i.e I don't know if making replicas of organisms will ever be useful, but we may be able to find ways to change DNA so diseases do not occur and plants can live in harsher conditions (food in the desert or on other planets perhaps). The potential good lies outside of the box, in my humble !@#$ing opinion.

RoD
02-14-2003, 02:25 PM
Whos to say thats even good for you too eat? Thats like eating...i dunno a three-eyed fish or something...

TravisS
02-14-2003, 02:30 PM
What is the definition of a clone? An exact duplicate of another creature, right?

Well, if it's safe to eat the original one, it's safe to eat the cloned one too :p

Govtcheez
02-14-2003, 02:30 PM
> i dunno a three-eyed fish or something...

Mutant != clone

Travis Dane
02-14-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by TravisS
What is the definition of a clone? An exact duplicate of another creature, right?

Well, I don't think a creature is EVER exactly the same as a
cloned one, But let's say a creates that looks exactly the same
is a clone.

Silvercord
02-14-2003, 02:32 PM
Whos to say thats even good for you too eat? Thats like eating...i dunno a three-eyed fish or something...

who is to say the mechanical vehicles you use won't spontaneously explode on you, who is to say the buildings you step in won't collapse on your head, who is to say the next time you go to turn your computer on a circuit won't fry out...genetic engineering will take the course of every other complex science, a $$$$load of engineering will turn it into a college major instead of the new frontier.

TravisS
02-14-2003, 02:33 PM
But then it might look the same on the outside, but a cloned sheep might have a pigs insides.... ewww

I'm just thinking for when cloning is "perfected". When it truly is an exact copy of the original. I probably wouldn't eat pre-perfected clones either :p

PJYelton
02-14-2003, 02:36 PM
Maybe it will be bad to eat, maybe it wont. But you can't say we shouldn't do something simply because of a "what if?" EVERYTHING in science has a what if!

And as far as aging cloned babies for armies (an EXTREME unlikelyhood) what is the real crime? The cloning to create new life, or the premature aging of this new life? To me its the second one, and you can't fault cloning for that.

jeez, 5 posts made it before I finished mine!

Silvercord
02-14-2003, 02:37 PM
"Hey Martha, I heard they've got these new flying machines working, can you believe that?"
"Yes I have heard, Betty, but I would never risk my own neck riding in one!"

Nick
02-14-2003, 02:40 PM
Not to upset anybody... legend has it that the
"Giants of reknown" (The evil spirits) were created
by the union of angles and the daughters of man.

This entertaining text is highly questionable.
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/enoch/

Travis Dane
02-14-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Nick
Not to upset anybody... legend has it that the
"Giants of reknown" (The evil spirits) were created
by the union of angles and the daughters of man.

Tjeez, That's some bull.

RoD
02-14-2003, 02:48 PM
I'm for clonging 100%, but can u all honestly tell me your not a little worried where it could go?

Nick
02-14-2003, 02:51 PM
Tjeez, That's some bull.

But it's why most world religions condemm clonning.
Is it unfair not to give their views?

Travis Dane
02-14-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Nick
Is it unfair not to give their views?

Yep, But i think we supassed the middle ages with their evil
demons and magic by now....

Nick
02-14-2003, 03:29 PM
Yep, But i think we supassed the middle ages with their evil
demons and magic by now....

Well we know that this book is older than 2000BC
but its origin is highly questionable. You should
read them like you would read gilgamesh or any other
old book. Mainly see how people back then acted
on the world around them. Accuracy in Gilgamesh is even
worse. Gilgamesh is 2/3 god which means there was alot of
love making :)

PJYelton
02-14-2003, 03:29 PM
I'm with you RoD, I'm all for it but am a little worried about where it might go. I'm fairly confident though that society will keep it in check more or less except for maybe a madman or two.

dP munky
02-14-2003, 03:43 PM
i dont completly disagree w/the fact that cloning a pig for example could be useful (end food shortages) but when it comes to human cloning thats where its gotta stop, cloining a human shows none of the same advantages that cloining an animal just for food would.

note: i was gunna say something about playing god, but then i remembered the ill favored GOD thread, (and the fact that most of the ppl on the board dont believe in a God) and decided against it

Silvercord
02-14-2003, 04:03 PM
I see all of you people talking about how cloning itself cannot possibly be useful. It doesn't seem anyone acknowledged my posts so I'm going to say my view one more time then can it. We may be able to gain very useful knowledge from genetic research (from cloning research), this knowledge may someday be used not to necessarily clone organisms, but rather we may be able to create a genetic makeup that is immune to disease. We may also be able to create plantlife that can be used to grow anywhere, for example other planets, by creating genetic code that is immune to harsh conditions. This doesn't seem out of line with everything else we have been doing. Heck Gregor Mendel was fooling around with pea plants in the 1800s(is that date correct?), this would just be more high tech.

Travis Dane
02-14-2003, 04:07 PM
Who needs plants when we have The Matrix?

[/seriously ........ing off mode]

Silvercord
02-14-2003, 04:18 PM
[/seriously ........ing off mode]


Who is ........ed off, are you ........ed off? I'm not ........ed off, I actually thought your remark was funny :)

Panopticon
02-14-2003, 05:22 PM
The definition of a clone is an exact copy of the original. In the case of the sheep, it died at 6 years of age. Did the original die at 6 years? of the same cause too? No and No.
Therefore, you wouldn't call that cloning.

If they can actually successfully clone an organism, and fit the definition of the clone, then where would the ethical dilemmas be?

Im for cloning... but only after they get it right.

dP munky
02-14-2003, 05:25 PM
>>The definition of a clone is an exact copy of the original. In the case of the sheep, it died at 6 years of age. Did the original die at 6 years? of the same cause too? No and No.

if i made a clone of you, and you die at age 65, that doesnt mean your clone would, every single concious being on this planet has a unique life experience, just because the cloned sheep died at age 6 doesnt mean that it wasnt a clone. dolly had the same genetic makeup of the origional therefor making it an exact copy!

frenchfry164
02-14-2003, 05:36 PM
it won't increase food. the same amount of things are getting born, they are just modified. It's not like they go poof! and a living organism pops up out of thin air.

I think it is great myself. We can learn so much from this. A lot of people say "what can you learn from just copying an organism". But if we can start modifying things to change how the clone develops, there is so much we could do.

minesweeper
02-14-2003, 06:10 PM
>>but rather we may be able to create a genetic makeup that is immune to disease<<

I don't see the benefit. If we eradicated disease tomorrow then the world's population would increase at an even faster rate than it already is. There would eventually be mass starvation and thirst as the earth couldn't physically support all the people. Huge wars would break out due to overcrowding. Huge numbers of people would be killed, just as with disease, but from different causes.

>>But if we can start modifying things to change how the clone develops<<

The thought of that is terrible. Are you suggesting we breed a clone and then, when it's a child, start experimenting with it's genetics to see what happens? Or even experimenting with them before the birth? What happens when some of those experiments go horribly wrong? Are you gonna be the one to tell another human being that they will be malformed for life because of a messed up experiment?

I find it stange that people would be mortified if the government started randomly selecting children to go away for bio weapons research testing yet they would consent to human beings being bred purely for experimentation.

I am not fundamentally against cloning. I'm not worried about a clone army or any rubbish like that. But look what's happened to Dolly, she had a terrible life. I never want to see a human being go through that as part of an experiment. People that say 'oh well we will perfect the science before making any human clones', quite frankly, I don't believe it's possible.

dP munky
02-14-2003, 06:33 PM
people say that we'll perfect the science before we clone humans, but the fact is there are doctors in italy that have claimed to have a cloned human, i mean come on, what could we learn from cloning, genetic engineering and cloning are different so if youre going to say we could cure disease by cloning, you'd better back up how.

minesweeper
02-14-2003, 06:41 PM
>>if youre going to say we could cure disease by cloning, you'd better back up how.<<

I didn't say we would, some other dude did, I quoted.

>>people say that we'll perfect the science before we clone humans, but the fact is there are doctors in italy that have claimed to have a cloned human<<

Yeah and when Dolly was born, people said 'oh look they have cloned a sheep, cloning must work'. Then a few years later it starts having growth deformaties, premature arthritis etc. And now it's had to be put down. I don't call that a success and I don't belive anyone who says we can perfect the art of cloning humans before a single human is cloned. I am ALL for the furthering of science, I am after all an engineer. But experiments on humans who haven't consented, especially before they are born is absolutely wrong in my opinion.

minesweeper
02-14-2003, 06:46 PM
On a side note, I don't know what the rush is to clone people. I mean everyone is different and unique. That is one of the things that is so great about nature.

Silvercord
02-14-2003, 09:43 PM
ok well two points:
1 - cloning IS genetic engineering
2 - it's not going to stop
3 - Hey silly I said there's only two points

RoD
02-14-2003, 09:48 PM
Alot of good points, particuarly the point minesweep made about over-running the earths population be ridding disease...i see diseases, some, as a form of natural selection so to speak.

ammar
02-14-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Travis Dane
You've played too much "Red Alert 2 Yuri's revenge":p

Maybe he sow Star Wars, Attach of the clones.

I don't really think it's going to be used in wars.

TechWins
02-15-2003, 02:49 AM
i see diseases, some, as a form of natural selection so to speak.

I see diseases as people either having to suffer through or die due to a terrible cause. A disease is not a natural process of death; it is a terrible reason for the person to die. My grandpa up until he was diagnosed with cancer at age 73 was a very active person. Then he had to start his treatmeant and for the past 3 years his life has been terrible. He probably doesn't have a whole lot of time life because of the disease he has. Now if he hadn't ever been infected with the disease he would still be living a great life. Now are you saying this is a natural way for my grandpa to die? I'm not trying to bring in personl matters to this at all, in fact I hope this person level doesn't continue, but I'm using him as an example to show you that disease is NOT a natural way for someone to die.

Also, the children who are born downsyndrome (sp?) could live a much better life if there were means of preventing them from having that disease. However, if all people felt that there disease was natural and should not be cured because the rest of might suffer from it, no such means of prevening that disease could ever take place.

Honestly, I think that reasoning is absolute selfishness and unthoughtfullness towards the well-being of others. I guess it's that I see a human life as being important enough so that there life/life span shouldn't be altered the least bit by disease.

GanglyLamb
02-15-2003, 04:36 AM
well alot of ppl seem to be against cloning/genetic researche but think of the things you can do with it.

For instance a pregnant women can let her unborn baby being tested at the downsyndrome. This way they'll know what they should expect from their child. Face it a child that has the downsyndrome or that is autistic isnt a self-esteem-boost for the parents. They will be afraid of getting another one (perhaps next child also has downsyndrome or whatever). + Its not fun for the kid himself. I know we r talking about lifes here but if you can prevent a creature of being born with some deviation of normal pattern......

And as for cloning: think about this there isnt a donor in the whole world for you. (you have a bad hart). Then they would be able to get some cells of ur heart and then re-make a new heart just like yours.... Even better (dunno how its called in english) but in the back of ur spine there are cells that can handle everything.... they also use those cells to clone. I think that in the future regeneration is waiting for us.

Call me a dreamer, so be it.

Fountain
02-15-2003, 06:22 AM
Did that weird US cult not already clone a human?

Cant remember, but it was born an exact copy of its mother-something like that.

GanglyLamb
02-15-2003, 07:07 AM
Did that weird US cult not already clone a human?
yup they "say" its a clone but untill we aint got no proff we cant believe them..... maybe that Shiro would know something more about it. because where he lives (country) should alrdy be a human clone walking the surface of the earth :p

RoD
02-15-2003, 09:26 AM
But tech, disease is natural. The earth has to have a method to control its population, ie aging, disease, sickness, etc. Maybe natural selection is the wrong word, perhaps needed is a better one.