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View Full Version : Germany is trying to block GOOGLE!!



OneStiffRod
02-13-2003, 12:13 AM
http://odem.org/informationsfreiheit/en/presse.html

Is Germany a free country?? I don't think so, they have bans against too many things to be FREE...

U whine about IRAQ when u r repressing and limiting the freedoms of your own - the german govt. reminds me an awful lot of the NAZI regime, they too limited the freedoms of germans for the "Good of the german ppl"

...

Sebastiani
02-13-2003, 12:56 AM
Rod , come on, is this some kind of scheme to nitpick Germany for backing Iraq? Honestly, have you ever been there? Anyway, I disagree - obviously. No wonder Europeans brand us as blind sheep, with such slogans and simplistic explanations. If you have a real argument, then please put one forward...

face_master
02-13-2003, 01:28 AM
hey after seeing all these videos on WWII in history makes me not like those axis dudes. but they're different now. but I dont like it how Japan just didn't tell their children about WWII + Japan's involvment. Now THATS censorship!

dP munky
02-13-2003, 01:30 AM
didnt china already block google?

OneStiffRod
02-13-2003, 01:44 AM
Nope, this is as REAL as it gets... they have already blocked a few and even recently blocked an american website - I mean blocked the whole URL even though the site is owned by and hosted by an american.

the opposition page is www.odem.org -


---------------------
The German Government has shut ######.com down through joker.com, ######.com is currently being hosted on #####.#######.com

"The domain is registered on your behalf at JOKER / CSL / CORE
We got an legal order to disable the domain [######.com]
We will "freeze" the status of that domain, so nobody can change
anything related to that domain. To have the domain activated again you will have to start a legal case against the government in germany."

######.com is owned by an American, therefore the american first amendment of free speech applies so there's no legal reason to ban the ######.com domainname, we'll fight against this. Our host prohosters.com 100% supports us. The temporary email address of #### is


//A thread post about this subject by a german


censorship in germany - I hate my country (almost)

Hey peeps,

donīt u think most germans want this ****g censorship.
germany is a federal country, and one of our 16 states has a sucker , bussow his name, who wants a "clean internet".clean made of just his choice. heīs trying to censor everything with porn, violance .......

The Net community does NOT want this ..........*hole, some fight him (me too)

Sad but true, one ..........*hole can stop websites in this state called "nordrhein-westfalen"

Today itīs porn and violence, tomorrow...who knows?
1939 it began like this, but this time thereīs resistance.

belive me... we fight him back
one website organizes this fight :
www.odem.org

belive me - THIS is not the german peoples wish, this is ONE f****g NAZI-like guy and most of us donīt want this.

Iīm ashamed of this, until these days I thought I live in a free land but more and more I hate my country.

Ok guys just a short statement, if my english would be better, i told u how this could happen.
but its more than 17 years ago since I had my last english lesson in school.
so excuse my bad english.

cya

Sebastiani
02-13-2003, 02:00 AM
Well, this is probably for the fact that up to this point *anything goes*. For instance, did you know that U.S. children can access almost any site from a public library? Doesn't this worry you? So what's so bad about keeping a lid on all that? Anyway, if we aren't careful, the same could happen here, too.

dP munky
02-13-2003, 02:03 AM
why should accessing any web site be a problem?!?

novacain
02-13-2003, 02:40 AM
nvoight>>Showing symbols of Hitlers idealogy is forbidden. Actually, there is a law that allows the police to confiscate anything they think might serve someone as a Nazi symbol. If they see you with a football and this football might repesent some Nazi stuff to you, any policeman can destroy it. Pretty weird passing a law that allows policemen to guess what you think about items. But I have never seen it enforced without reason anyway.<<

>>even recently blocked an american website
The sites blocked are for white supremacy sites. ie those having images prohibited in Germany.

While I do not agree with censorship, I do not want children seeing these sites.
In any of the other pages linked to that one could I find google mentioned.
Was google only going to be censored as it had a cache of these sites?

The US ambasidor is currently trying to censor an Australian politician by telling the leader of the opposition what he can and can not say in the Australian parlement.

>>I mean blocked the whole URL even though the site is owned by and hosted by an american.
Why? because it had images on it that are illegal in Germany.
Why is it an issue, because the site is covered by only US law?
And how does that concur with the US media giants taking Kazza, a Vanautu registered company, to court using US laws?
You can't have it both ways.

OneStiffRod
02-13-2003, 03:25 AM
Why should ANY site dealing with any content be censored unless blatanly illegal in the case of child porn, but anything else even the most racist sites?

>>Why? because it had images on it that are illegal in Germany.
I don't even care about what goes on germany, they can censor anything they wish to their loss in my opinion but this time it affects an american website - the german govt. without warning or an appeal process has shutdown a TOPLEVEL domain just as if they found a reason to disable www.cprogramming.com if this german prosecutor found it disatisfying. This is about much more than a site but about freedom and censorship - the article states that there is a list of 6,000 sites that will be CENSORED or shutdown by the german govt. The issue goes to Sub domains even if Cprogramming hosted a sub domain that was offensive to a country that country to shutdown the entire top domain for the content in one section.

>>And how does that concur with the US media giants taking Kazza, a Vanautu registered company, to court using US laws?
It doesn't have any correlation, it's not the US govt. trying to shutdown kazzaa - and those suing can't ERASE an entire DOMAIN.

>>In any of the other pages linked to that one could I find google mentioned.
Was google only going to be censored as it had a cache of these sites?
GOOGLE is mentioned in one line near the begining and it easy to miss - there is a link to what I assume is a detailed explanation of why exactly they wish to BLOCK google but it's in german and my german aint so good.

I have links to NEWS stories about this subject but I feel they may taint the point trying to be made as they specifically cover the site in question... but they make excellent points within the articles about the stupidity of this censorship... if u want the links let me know.

My point is while germans are in the streets protesting against the US president and POLICIES they have something far more sinister brewing in there own backyards and it's something that affects more than germans.

Brian
02-13-2003, 04:07 AM
Oh well, I'm not German. Move to a different state. Federal govts are retarded.

RoD
02-13-2003, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by dP munky
didnt china already block google?

Yes, but it was lifted.

nvoigt
02-13-2003, 05:32 AM
the german govt. reminds me an awful lot of the NAZI regime,


Do you even know the name of our head of state ? I guess you don't. Have you seen the sites that ought to be blocked ? NAZI sites ! I think it's a shame your country is hosting them under the cloak of free speech. Don't pull that Nazi stuff on me. Look at that site Germany tries to block. That are Nazis and America is protecting them. And harboring terrorists is as bad as being one. Your words. Why do you allow those people to spread their hate ? Would you allow Osama to spread his hate ? Why not ? Why is it you ban sites of someone murdering 5 thousand people while you think it's freedom of speech to glorify someone who killed millions ?

I don't like the block and it' easy to circumvent anyway, but it's perfectly legal, because those sites are illegal here. We don't order you to remove them, we just don't allow providers to grant access to illegal stuff. Both american providers did not react to requests to take those hate-sites off the net. Obviously $$$ is more important than humanity.

I am against the block. I did not vote for the guy who ordered it, and I will vote for anyone who promises to lift it. But I am also against those sites. None of those involved, neither American providers nor German Governments act the way they should.



Why should ANY site dealing with any content be censored unless blatanly illegal in the case of child porn


So child porn is somehow more illegal than massmurder ?

minesweeper
02-13-2003, 05:40 AM
All governments do this. Our very own Prince Charles was told to stay out of America when he was last due to visit. Bush didn't even conceal the reason, being that he felt Charles' anti-war views were not appropriate and he would therefore be unwelcome. Charles has no power in our country, people who listen to him do so because they want to.

salvelinus
02-13-2003, 09:48 AM
######.com is owned by an American, therefore the american first amendment of free speech applies so there's no legal reason to ban the ######.com domainname, we'll fight against this
The US first amendment does not apply in Germany, or any country except the US. And I'm not so sure about the US....

civix
02-13-2003, 10:29 AM
I always knew them Germans was gunna be twubble after WWII.

Shiro
02-13-2003, 12:26 PM
> the german govt. reminds me an awful lot of the NAZI regime

So in your opinion Schroeder is like Hitler? Never read such nonsense. Seems you don't know what you are writing. Please read and learn first something about Germany before writing nonsense like this.

In my opinion you should apology to the Germans for this.

OneStiffRod
02-13-2003, 12:33 PM
It's easy to hate certain sites and the content they spew... but it's YOUR choice on whether you wish to look at it and when a govt. like germany decides what u can and cannot see based on the MORALS of a select few - you don't see that as dangerous and wrong - what's next, this man does not like porn or violence maybe he will ban sites dealing with pornography and even sites of VIDEO GAME makers who make titles that are "illegal" in germany.

Germany already bans videos and video games that have titles and content they find "immoral" - it is illegal for a german to even look at a nazi symbol...

For all u socialists on this board, this is socialism staring u in the face - govts. removing your freedom of choice and deciding your life is where socialism leads.

I didn't want to post anything that refers to the site itself but the articles explain much better what is happening....
http://www.prohosters.com/joker.html

I would not care but this time it affects america and american rights, and it is issue that is spreading and not retreating -

OneStiffRod
02-13-2003, 12:40 PM
>>In my opinion you should apology to the Germans for this.

I say to u,

GROW UP... be an adult and take it on the chin who cares if you are offended, I certainly don't, that is my american right to say what I wish. Your thin skin is your problem and not mine, and germanies sensiblilities should be kept to germany and not affect americans, yet it is.

I wouldn't even know about this issue until a german pointed it out, and he's the one who compared it to the NAZI's, I'm sure he got in trouble b/c he's not even allowed to talk about it legally...
:(

Govtcheez
02-13-2003, 12:41 PM
> when a govt. like germany decides what u can and cannot see based on the MORALS of a select few - you don't see that as dangerous and wrong

So, what do you think about the US government taking down some pro-bin Laden pages after 9/11?

Shiro
02-13-2003, 01:03 PM
>Germany already bans videos and video games that have titles
>and content they find "immoral" - it is illegal for a german to
>even look at a nazi symbol...

It is not only Germany, but also other European countries have such things. I wonder if you even know about the neo-nazis.

>removing your freedom of choice and deciding your life is where
>socialism leads.

Ah, you don't know what socialism is. The Netherlands has always had a government with a socialistic-democratic party in it. They haven't taken away my freedom of choice and they don't decide how I should live. Socialism leads to a social country, the US could learn a lot from it.

>Your thin skin is your problem and not mine, and germanies
>sensiblilities should be kept to germany and not affect
>americans, yet it is.

Funny how you are showing the same nationalism the nazis did and do.

salvelinus
02-13-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by OneStiffRod
I would not care but this time it affects america and american rights
How so? They're preventing Germans from viewing it, not doing anything to Americans or America. Whether Germans do or should, or don't or shouldn't, have a right to view a website doesn't mean an American has a right for them to see it.
Did Germany somehow force the US guy to take down his site? That would violate his rights.

OneStiffRod
02-13-2003, 01:16 PM
>>Did Germany somehow force the US guy to take down his site? That would violate his rights.

YES... that is exactly what happened and that is what im pointing out, and they did it without regard or due process. READ THIS ARTICLE as I posted before.
http://www.prohosters.com/joker.html

I don't care if germany bans sites for germans to see but they are not doing it for just germans they are banning sites outright - forcing them off the internet.

Yawgmoth
02-13-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
>
So, what do you think about the US government taking down some pro-bin Laden pages after 9/11?

I think it's fine. Bin Laden is responsible for thousands of deaths, and helping a mass murderer is illegal.

Govtcheez
02-13-2003, 02:22 PM
Helping a mass murderer's different than putting a website saying you support him. Some people might even say it's (gasp) free speech.

Yawgmoth
02-13-2003, 02:30 PM
True, but someone supporting a mass murderer is likely to help him thru their site.

Govtcheez
02-13-2003, 02:30 PM
I didn't realize being likely to do something was a crime.

ygfperson
02-13-2003, 02:44 PM
How is it even possible for Germany to shut down a United States subdomain, malicious hacking aside? The closest thing to it would be blocking the german DNS servers' listings of that site. A person could manually specify a different DNS server, but finding the site in question wouldn't be done accidentally.

I feel that any government censorship is wrong, whatever the content censored.


So child porn is somehow more illegal than massmurder ?
In terms of pictures, yes. Child porn online is evidence of a crime committed. A child was sexually hurt/molested in the making of that photo/movie. However, it is legal to show child porn on a web site if it's not a photo but a completely computer generated image, or a drawing.

Racist web sites are allowed under American free speech, which protects a person's right to express an opinion. It's not the government's job to question the morality of that opinion.


So, what do you think about the US government taking down some pro-bin Laden pages after 9/11?
It depends on the content. Expressing an opinion for bin Laden is not illegal. Saying that money will be donated to him is. Or spreading espionage.

golfinguy4
02-13-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by nvoigt
Do you even know the name of our head of state ? I guess you don't. Have you seen the sites that ought to be blocked ? NAZI sites ! I think it's a shame your country is hosting them under the cloak of free speech. Don't pull that Nazi stuff on me. Look at that site Germany tries to block. That are Nazis and America is protecting them. And harboring terrorists is as bad as being one. Your words. Why do you allow those people to spread their hate ? Would you allow Osama to spread his hate ? Why not ? Why is it you ban sites of someone murdering 5 thousand people while you think it's freedom of speech to glorify someone who killed millions ?

I don't like the block and it' easy to circumvent anyway, but it's perfectly legal, because those sites are illegal here. We don't order you to remove them, we just don't allow providers to grant access to illegal stuff. Both american providers did not react to requests to take those hate-sites off the net. Obviously $$$ is more important than humanity.

I am against the block. I did not vote for the guy who ordered it, and I will vote for anyone who promises to lift it. But I am also against those sites. None of those involved, neither American providers nor German Governments act the way they should.



So child porn is somehow more illegal than massmurder ?


I can't argue against the merit of your statement. However, I don't believe that any opinions should be censored. Censorship is a gray area. Once something gets censored, other things are bound to be censored, IMVHO. The reason child porn is banned is because children are not considered mature enough to amek all decisions so certain restrictions are placed on what they can do. However, if you are an adult, you are supposed to know what to do. If you believe that some aliens created the Earth, who am I to say that you can't talk about it. IMVHO, one should be able to do anything they want, as long as it does not encroach on the rights of others.

salvelinus
02-13-2003, 03:12 PM
Well I read the article, but echo ygf - how does a German company disable an American site on a US based server? I don't know every detail of how the Internet is set up, but that doesn't sound right.

OneStiffRod
02-13-2003, 04:43 PM
how does a German company disable an American site on a US based server?

The company in question is a regristrar - ie like Network solutions or others who buy and sell Toplevel domain names. The German govt. is saying that this site has no right to exist under that name and here's the rub, if the site moved to another domain the german govt. can once again ban and destroy that toplevel domain. A top level domain is anything like www.cprogramming.com, a sub domain is something like cboard.cprogramming.com.

If the german govt., specifically this prosecutor doesn't like what is being discussed on this board he could very conceivably ban www.cprogramming.com as a whole.

salvelinus
02-13-2003, 06:22 PM
If the registrar company buys and sells the domain names, then presumably they own the name and can do whatever with it. Why not get a name from a US registrar? How, exactly, does Germany destroy a domain that operates on a server in the US? That's what I don't understand.

JoeSixpack
02-13-2003, 06:26 PM
>I didn't realize being likely to do something was a crime.<

That's just the thing Sadam emailed me.

Govtcheez
02-13-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by JoeSixpack
That's just the thing Sadam emailed me. What in the hell does that mean?

novacain
02-13-2003, 09:15 PM
Again I do not agree with censorship.
But from the link at prohosters to an article on MSN.

"In October 2000, the Chicago Board of Elections won a court order shutting down VoteAuction.com, a Web site in Austria that claimed to allow Americans to trade their votes in the presidential elections that year. It soon popped up under the new name Vote-auction.com. "

and from the link to news.com at prohosters
" "I've never heard of a case where a registrar can disable a domain over content," said Ted Hickman, who runs Virginia-based ProHosters.com. "I certainly won't be registering any domains at Joker.com...We'll host anything that's legal in the U.S. It's not our job to determine whether content is acceptable to others." "


But it is their job to determine if the content is legal in the US and if its not legal in the US they won't host it or they will censor it.

The difference is?

If the site was registered with a US registar could another government shut it down?
I don't think so.
But I understand the loss of the domain name would hurt the site. Of course the registrar could be liable for the loss (just as the registrar could be liable for prosecution if it sites with illegal content (in the registrars country).

We are into the minefield of what laws apply to an internet site.

Where it is hosted, registered or viewed?

kermi3
02-13-2003, 10:24 PM
Ok...here's part of the deal with Germany....

Constitutionally the government has the right to shutdown any organization that threatens the regieme (this means the govermental system). They can't shut it down, so they block it.

I personally don't agree with this, but I'm not german. Diffrent culture and political climate. For example, I've been told (credible source, expert, not guy I know) that many germans think it's proper and even good to have a lot of regulations that Americans would find insane and intrusive. This includes things like when you can mow your lawn, what hours a store can be open etc. Personally I think this is nuts, but it isn't there...

Just a thought to keep in mind.

nvoigt
02-14-2003, 02:01 AM
This includes things like when you can mow your lawn, what hours a store can be open etc. Personally I think this is nuts, but it isn't there...


There are a lot of laws and regulations. You may not mow your lawn or do anything loud before 10:00, after 22:00 or between 13:00 and 15:00. You won't get busted if you do, but if someone complains, police has a reason to make you stop. We do have laws for opening hours of stores. Stores open at 8:00 or later and close 20:00 or earlier. No stores open on sundays. A lot of exceptions for different stores apply. I think that's dumb, but I would need a majority to change it, and the majority thinks it's good because it protects workers from working on sundays and long hours.

If US Registrars can disable sites that are illegal in the US, I guess German Registrars can disable sites illegal here. If it were on me to decide they would all stay up, but it's not. This is not some arbitrary block, but a law that was passed by the democratic ( nitpickers would say republican ) majority of the german people.



Germany already bans videos and video games that have titles and content they find "immoral" - it is illegal for a german to even look at a nazi symbol...


Uhm... no. It's illegal to use a sign for entertainment that stands for torture, death, war and evil. Any adult ( 18 and above ) can buy whatever s/he wants. We just don't give gory games to under age persons. Not everyone can live in such a free society like yours, where I can see kids with gunwounds on tv daily. Maybe our laws are a bit stricter. But a shot kid is a national tragedy here, not a number in another gunshot statistic. We like it that way.



If the german govt., specifically this prosecutor doesn't like what is being discussed on this board he could very conceivably ban www.cprogramming.com as a whole.


If the name was registered with a German registrar and this site were breaking German laws, I guess the registrar has the right ( or duty ) to cancel your contract and the owner has to look for someone else to provide the site with a name. The site is still on the net by IP, because it's not hosted in Germany. Germans don't break their own laws just because some American thinks it's free speech. If it's legal in some backward country to molest kids, would your registrar host that sites domain name ? I hope not.

rick barclay
02-14-2003, 03:43 AM
I'm sure the admins of the sites banned by the German government really don't care about a few Germans who might
be deprived of their web site's content or the German government
per se. And if ####.com wants to circumvent the silly German
attempt at censorship, all they have to do is spend a few dollars
and add another domain name--same site, different name. Emails
are sent; subscribers informed; and ####.com is back operating
under a new name unknown and unobserved by mean old
Mr. Schroeder's censors. Censoring the Internet is an excersize
in futility. What next? Build another wall to keep out the verbotten?

nvoigt
02-14-2003, 04:27 AM
>mean old Mr. Schroeder's censors.

To be fair, it was the opposition that started that blocking thing. Schroeders party has nothing to do with it. It's a federal state law and that state is governed by the CDU ( while Schroeder is SPD ).

OneStiffRod
02-14-2003, 04:51 AM
Just to let y'all know...



Good news! ####.com is back to were it belongs... ONLINE! Thanks to the overwhelming public support and the help of our lawyers, the #####.com domain has been unblocked and will be transferred to a US Registrar..........
Let the freedom of speech rule!

We'll see if the german govt. takes further action - the particular site was not even considered illegal but "immoral" by MR. Bussow or whatever his name is...

There is also such a thing as name recognition that a site has and it goes to the question of whether the name has anything to do with the content within the site, that was what the whole uproar was about - Prohosters.com who hosts that site could conceivably lose title to its name based on the content of sites it hosts... that is the precedent the German govt. set here.

All this discussion has done nothing to the fact that 6000 sites are on the list for banishment in germany or for germans one of them being google.com - maybe u should be marching in the streets for that instead of IRAQ.