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Panopticon
01-27-2003, 11:51 PM
Ok.
Given:
If I chop off your hand, your conscience will be with the rest of your body.
And given:
If I chop off your arms and legs, your conscience will still be with the rest of your body right?
And given:
If I chop off your head, for teh brief moment before your brain runs out of oxygen due to lack of blood, your conscience will be with your head right?
What if I divide your brain 50 50 in the middle, separating the left side and the right side?
Will ther be a logical and a creative 'you' before 'you's die?

Panopticon
01-27-2003, 11:54 PM
Pardon my sick mind for thinking of something so gross but its been in my head since I was 5 years old. My parents dissed my question as being stupid, my GP cant answer it, and my friends answer it with an irrelevant question.
Can anyone provide even the least bit of insight to my erhh... thoughts? thanks

Sebastiani
01-27-2003, 11:55 PM
Sick bastard. :D The concience emanates from every pore of the body. Where can it stop and start from then??

Panopticon
01-27-2003, 11:59 PM
No... Im pretty sure the conscience is within the brain and to a lesser extent the nervous system..

And yes, thanks. I am sick.

Sebastiani
01-28-2003, 12:05 AM
Well, maybe yours does then, but certainly not mine! The seat of conciousness in my opinion is the area roughly 2 inches below the navel. That's why concentration on that point enhances things like perception, stability, endurance, and vigor....

Panopticon
01-28-2003, 01:27 AM
dang... :confused:

O well, i dont think ima get a proper reply anytime soon. :rolleyes:

Sebastiani
01-28-2003, 01:34 AM
The problem with the question is that you are trying to apply logic to a situation that defies logic. It is like asking "If a man stands at one side of the world, and another at the other - which man is actually standing *up*?". The answer would be ambiguous, subjective, and non-definitive.

ammar
01-28-2003, 04:18 AM
Originally posted by Panopticon
dang... :confused:

O well, i dont think ima get a proper reply anytime soon. :rolleyes:
I think so...
that's a very hard to answer question, like Sebastiani said, and I really don't know how you came up with that idea.

rick barclay
01-28-2003, 04:42 AM
I'm opting that the "logical" side will take dominance and
start searchng frantically for the nearest bottle of Crazy Glue.

Clyde
01-28-2003, 08:24 AM
An interesting question, i rather suspect "you" would simply pass out pretty instantly due to the trauma.

The cerebral cortex which is thought to be responsible for "conciousness" spans both sides of the brain.

In an adult brain I would guess that bisecting the cebral cortex would permenantly destroy its function.

In an infant however, well interesting things happen with child brains: There was the case of a girl (i forget her exact age but she was less than 10) who had to have a significant portion of her brain removed (something like 40%!) due to epilepsy, including her speech centre, amazingly she made a significant recovery and regained almost all of the functions associated with the lost areas of the brain. Not only can she speak but she can speak several different languages! All without a speech centre!

The brain is remarkably adaptive at an early age.

If a child had their entire brain bisected then i would guess that one side would die and the other would (gradually) take over the lost functions. (It would be interesting to see which side, and why). Now having said that if you bisected the entire brain you would lost all homeostatic control, and so you would need a life support machine to keep you alive untill your brain managed to regain those functions (and now that i think about it i suspect it wouldn't regain base functions like heart regulation, etc. - though i might be wrong).

[Thought Experiment]
If you could bisect it then take one half and place it in come kind of host body, then you might (eventually) end up with two people.
[/Thought Experiment]

Whether or not the sensation of "self", is simply an inevitable consequence of the concious function OR whether it is separate and coded into a specific region of the brain is another interesting questioned linked to this topic.

In any case the short term effects would undoubtedly be a simple loss of conciousness, irrespective of long term regenerative capability.

...
01-28-2003, 09:39 AM
there have been cases where, either through trauma or birth defect (not sure which, i havent researched the topic much), a person's right and left lobes were seperated.

do a little research and im sure you can find the answer to your question. i dont know enough about the topic to have any insight, but i remember having read this from a book in the psychology section of barnes & noble. head over to your local bookstore and see what you come up with.

to address clyde: your right and left cerebral cortexes only control conscious thought. functions such as resperatory and digestive actions are controlled by the medulla oblongata (sp?)

Leeman_s
01-28-2003, 10:15 AM
I'm not sure I understand that last sentence you wrote, but I'll do my best to answer.

First of all, consciousness is a psychological construct. It's an idea, you can't directly measure it in any way. Therefore, you can't really be sure what WOULD happen in that situation.

If I remember correctly, it is your corpus callosum that goes from the right side of your brain to the left side (or vice versa). There are cases where the corpus callosum doesn't go from side to side. Those people have a slowed reaction, can't speak correctly (pronounce words correctly, like normal people, but words come out that they didn't want to come out).

This leads to the idea that your brain really is not the "command center" of your body. Some people believe that it's in your spinal cord. Do a little research on this topic, and find out for yourself.

Clyde
01-28-2003, 10:42 AM
"functions such as resperatory and digestive actions are controlled by the medulla oblongata (sp?)"

Ya, and thats how i spell it too =)

"First of all, consciousness is a psychological construct. It's an idea"

Clarify, a construct? Are you saying that it is not a "real" phenomena?

*ClownPimp*
01-28-2003, 10:43 AM
>There are cases where the corpus callosum doesn't go from side to side. Those people have a slowed reaction, can't speak correctly (pronounce words correctly, like normal people, but words come out that they didn't want to come out).

Perhaps, but I have also heard of cases where the corpus callosum was severed and no immediately visible signs of imparement were observed. But instead, it was like there was "two people" in the person.

For example, there was a test given to a person with a severed CC. They were shown the word SINBAD, such that the left eye would see the word SIN and the other eye would see the word BAD. It is known that the images from the left eye are processed in the right hemisphere and images from the right eye in the left hemisphere. It is also known that speech and motor skills such as writing are controlled in separate hemispheres (I cant remember which).

When the person was asked to say and write what word they had seen, they said SIN and wrote BAD (possibly the other way around, I dont remember). Also, some people with severed CC's have reported trying to get dressed, but one hand is dressing them and the other hand is undressing (It is also known that one side of the body is controlled by one hemisphere and the other side by the other hemisphere).

Its as if there are two separate thought processes running at the same time, since the corpus callosum is the only means for the two hemispheres to communicate with each other.

>What if I divide your brain 50 50 in the middle, separating the left side and the right side? Will ther be a logical and a creative 'you' before 'you's die

If you define the "though process" as being consciousness... then the answer to your questions is (tentatively) yes.

Leeman_s
01-28-2003, 01:25 PM
Yes, clownpimp. You and me are saying the same thing, but neither of us explained it really good. The right side of your brain controls functions on the left side of your body, and vice versa.

Ex: A woman sees a picture of a girl playing hop scotch. She is asked to write down what she sees with her right hand. She is also asked to say verbally what she sees. Now, given that your writing and speaking skills are controlled from the right side of your brain (might be left, its not the point though -- if so, then think of her writing with her left hand, not right), she is able to speak what she sees because it happens in her right brain. Now, when she is asked to write down what she sees with her right hand, it is controlled by her left brain. Her right brain cannot get the message to her left brain (normally the corpus callosum does this), so she can't figure out what to write. She ends up saying and writing two different things.

So, it's not really "two" people, its just a communication problem between her brain halves.

GanglyLamb
01-28-2003, 01:49 PM
loook up some more info about hypothalamus if i recall this is also a part of "feelings" "emotions" and logic and if not then it controls the hormonal stuff

Panopticon
01-28-2003, 05:59 PM
Wow.. so insightful. Frankly, I agree with the idea that there will be sort-of 2 conscious(es) (whats the noun of this word!?!) as a result of a 50 50 divide of the brain. But the thing about the girl who lost 40% of her brain and managed to 'adapt'... thats quite amazing. Well thanks for taking the time to answer my question.