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Shiro
01-12-2003, 10:10 AM
A lot of people fly from their country to other countries and are asking for asylum in the country they fled to. In the Netherlands there are thousands of such people, they came from other parts of Europe, mainly eastern-Europe, from Africa and all kind of other places.

Every city in the Netherlands and a lot of villages have a so called AZC (Asiel Zoeker Centrum) where people who are waiting for asylum being granted or not. Those people usually don't speak Dutch and often speak English badly. So it is very hard for them and for us to integrate them in the Dutch society.

Also in the city where I live we have a few hundreds of those people, I have no problem with them, I understand they fled because of war or hunger or other things and they can find a safe place here.

But the number of people who don't like those people staying here is growing, mainly because

1. It costs a lot of money, those people need food, money, clothes and a house.
2. Those people often don't speak a language we know.
3. Those people usually find it hard to accept our way of living and culture, especially if they are from an country where Islam is the main religion.
4. The number of those people is still growing.

I can understand it, the Dutch also have their own problems, but in my opinion we must help those people as good as we can.

Do you in your countries also have such problems?

adrianxw
01-12-2003, 10:18 AM
When I saw the title, I assumed this thread was about areas under curves!

However, we also have a large number of refugees and asylum seekers here, and yes, there are stirrings amongst certain, mainly right wing elements, of the population.

I would add a "5" to your list of problems, that being, in areas where there are significant numbers of these people, the crime rates are rising steeply.

Travis Dane
01-12-2003, 10:32 AM
I tottaly agree with shiro, this country is totally flooding
with refugees, therefore whe have a severe house shortage
here, and allot of the refugees are criminals.
Finally there's some attention focussed on this problem, but i
still think it'l be a while before whe have some space again
in this country:(

Shiro
01-12-2003, 10:44 AM
Hmmm, I disagree with you Travis Dane.

I don't know in which part of the Netherlands you live, but here in the northern part there is no house shortage. In my opinion we have to give those refugees a safe place until they can return home safely, except those refugees coming here because of our economy. (As you've probably noticed I'm a left-wing voter, I'll vote one of the parties on the left wing, probably GroenLinks or SP. Don't know yet.)

I know that in the western parts and southern parts of our country house prices are very high and there is a serious shortage of payable houses. But that doesn't mean we don't need to help those people.

Unfortunetaly a minor group of the refugees do criminal things, but this does not mean that all of them or even a lot of them are criminals. But usually it is a small group of refugees who get in the news which makes people think all refugees are criminals.

We do have space in our country, but mainly in the northern parts and the eastern parts. I wonder if there will ever be space again in the western and southern parts. Unless our government decides to lower house prices and lets more houses being built.

Travis Dane
01-12-2003, 10:47 AM
I live in Gelderland, and i can tell you, theres a serious house
shortage here, as a result, whe get thousands of house stuck
together, very ugly sight. Of course whe need to help those
people, but at some point whe ARE full, and allot of those people
dont even need help but just come here because our Econemy
is better, I think other country's should help people as good
as whe did.

Travis Dane
01-12-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Shiro
lets more houses being built.

Really, if they're going to build more houses build them north!
And if they are lowering the prices, building budgets will lower,
and the current 'new' houses,are really crap,walls so thin
you can hear the neighboure do 'you know what',
So i dont know if thats a solution, funding house building might
be possible, but i dont think thats going to happen with the
current state of economics

minesweeper
01-12-2003, 10:54 AM
Big big problems here in the UK.

Where do I start, you have already covered the big cost of providing for these people, especially at a time when the economy is slow thus making it necessary to cut back on things like health care for our own elderly people etc.

The other problem is infrastructure. Towns and cities develop over a long period of time. As more tax paying people move to an area, the public services in that area exapnd accordingly. This is however a gradual and iterative process. If you simply inject a few thousand people into an area, the system can't cope.

As Adrian said, there is also a problem with crime, and with crime comes bad publicity, and with that comes racial hatred.

I feel that it is up to the newcomers to adapt, even if that means abandoning their habits, routines, religious rules etc. It is after all, our way of life that has created a country in which they are able to obtain safe refuge.

Shiro
01-12-2003, 10:55 AM
>but at some point whe ARE full, and allot of those people
>dont even need help but just come here because our Econemy
>is better,

That are the people who come here for economical reasons. They don't need our help, that is true we have to reject their asylum request and send them back to where they came from.

But, there are about 90.000 refugees in the Netherlands, there are 16.000.000 people in total living in the Netherlands. So when looking at those numbers, I don't think it are the refugees making our country full.

> I think other country's should help people as good as whe did.

I think a lot of them do. The problem is in my opinion the lack of European rules for this. There have to be European rules for asylum. Currently the countries themselves have to handle it, but if we can handle it on European level, we can spread refugees more in Europe. We can do better border checking, because in Europe we don't have borders anymore, but around it we still have. The Netherlands is too small for solving this problem, it should be a European problem.

Shiro
01-12-2003, 11:04 AM
>Really, if they're going to build more houses build them north!

Yep. They actually do. Just take a look at Emmen, Heerenveen and Hoogeveen. There currently is a lot of space and the prices of houses here are 2 times lower than in the western parts. A lot of people from the western parts are coming here.

>And if they are lowering the prices, building budgets will lower,
>and the current 'new' houses,are really crap,walls so thin
>you can hear the neighboure do 'you know what',

Heh. I think lowering the house prices can also be reached by offering more houses. If the supply increases, the prices should go lower.

>So i dont know if thats a solution, funding house building might
>be possible, but i dont think thats going to happen with the
>current state of economics

I also don't think it will happen.

RoD
01-12-2003, 11:24 AM
Am i the first from the US to post here?? Wow, guess we don't count, as were just trying to bomb everyone anyway.

adrianxw
01-12-2003, 11:27 AM
One doesn't hear much about the US when it comes to looking after refugees and asylum seekers. Are there many in the US? There are hundreds of thousands, possibly millions by now, of them in Western Europe.

RoD
01-12-2003, 11:44 AM
not unless you count all the mexicans that sneak in, no offense intended.

I compare m$ and the US alot lately lol.

Imperito
01-12-2003, 11:48 AM
Well I am in kind of a weird place, I'm flordian, two generations removed from Cuba (legally immigrated), so while I see the problems south florida is having (Trust me shiro, better that they live in their own townships than set up barrios in your metro centers). I also have to remember that (In America at least) virtually the entire population is somehow immigrant to this nation, myself included. So it is not as easy to oppose immigration, other than those who come to this country illegally.

And I was thinking area under curve too.

Imperito
01-12-2003, 11:51 AM
RoD, I don't know where you come from, but in my travels and dealings in Miami, Florida I can say with some confidence that a great many "asylum seekers" enter this country illegally. I've never been to texas but my understanding is that it is a problem there too.

maes
01-12-2003, 12:00 PM
(Note: I haven't read the whole thread, I'm too lazy ;) )
We also have the same problem. People are getting intolerant. I'm affraid extreme right (Vlaams Blok) will win the elections in Antwerp. I do not want to live in a country where extreme right has the power. They are very good in saying that the imigrants are the cause of all the problems that we have. Well, I say : "What problems?". Sure we have unemployment, sure we need to pay for their food and houses. It is not that I'm getting poorer because of that. Here I'm sitting behind my 1000 PC with my broadband connection and all the food I can eat (I do have to go to the store occasionly to get some more food;) ). Atleast I live in a country where I can say what I want and have the rights a free man should have. Extreme right can say what's bad and what should be changed, but they offer NO solutions (unless you consider "put every on back on a plane to where they came from" a solution. I do agree that we can't take care of them all and that we have to set limits. If they are here to commit crimes, sent them back for all care. But we don't have tread them all the same, there are good and bad people among them just as there are among the Belgian people. I do have a problem with imigrants that act like it is their country. Some guy wanted to put the pollice under his own survailance. He even proposed that Arabic should be an official Belgian language. I'm sorry, but if that happens, I'm moving to Holland :p

RoD
01-12-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Imperito
RoD, I don't know where you come from, but in my travels and dealings in Miami, Florida I can say with some confidence that a great many "asylum seekers" enter this country illegally. I've never been to texas but my understanding is that it is a problem there too.

NJ; not a problem like they are talking though, we have some yes but a minor percentage in comparison.

Aran
01-12-2003, 01:46 PM
We don't really notice it as much in NJ because all the 50 mexicans in my town live in the same one room apartment.

ammar
01-12-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Shiro
A lot of people fly from their country to other countries and are asking for asylum in the country they fled to. In the Netherlands there are thousands of such people, they came from other parts of Europe, mainly eastern-Europe, from Africa and all kind of other places.

Every city in the Netherlands and a lot of villages have a so called AZC (Asiel Zoeker Centrum) where people who are waiting for asylum being granted or not. Those people usually don't speak Dutch and often speak English badly. So it is very hard for them and for us to integrate them in the Dutch society.

Also in the city where I live we have a few hundreds of those people, I have no problem with them, I understand they fled because of war or hunger or other things and they can find a safe place here.

But the number of people who don't like those people staying here is growing, mainly because

1. It costs a lot of money, those people need food, money, clothes and a house.
2. Those people often don't speak a language we know.
3. Those people usually find it hard to accept our way of living and culture, especially if they are from an country where Islam is the main religion.
4. The number of those people is still growing.

I can understand it, the Dutch also have their own problems, but in my opinion we must help those people as good as we can.

Do you in your countries also have such problems?
>>1. It costs a lot of money, those people need food, money, clothes and a house.
I agree with you Shiro, people like this should work in order to earn their living...
>>2. Those people often don't speak a language we know.
That's a problem... If they don't speak the language they should not stay...
>>3. Those people usually find it hard to accept our way of living and culture, especially if they are from an country where Islam is the main religion.
That's their problem... If they don't accept it as it is they should leave...
Countries should only accept immigrant who can work in the country and don't have any problems accepting the way of life in that country...

adrianxw
01-12-2003, 03:53 PM
>>>
>>2. Those people often don't speak a language we know.
That's a problem... If they don't speak the language they should not stay...
<<<

... and go where? A good number of our "guests" speak their own Somali dialect, outside of Somalia, there is nowhere, so, where?

>>>
Countries should only accept immigrant who can work in the country and don't have any problems accepting the way of life in that country...
<<<

What happens to all the others?

Shiro
01-13-2003, 01:09 PM
>I do have a problem with imigrants that act like it is their
>country. Some guy wanted to put the pollice under his own
>survailance. He even proposed that Arabic should be an official
>Belgian language.

Yes, that is a problem we also have in the Netherlands. A lot of immigrants don't have problems adapting their way of live so that it makes it easier for them to live with us and for us to live with them. But there is small group, mainly people with an Arabic background, who wants to keep their own way of living. No problem with that, but they are telling us that we are doing wrong and that is a problem.

>I'm sorry, but if that happens, I'm moving to Holland

Well, if I have read the papers well, we have the same problems as you. That Arabic organisation which tries to controll your police wants to set up a Dutch branch.

>>>1. It costs a lot of money, those people need food, money,
>>clothes and a house.
>I agree with you Shiro, people like this should work in order to
>earn their living...

I partly agree, but:

For some reasons our government doesn't allow them to work, because of all kinds of laws and rules. A lot of them can and want to do work, but they are simply not allowed to.

And a lot of them are children. Not just a little part, but a big part. A big problem are the so-called AMA's (Alleenstaande Minderjarige Asielzoeker), that are children younger than 18 who came to this country without parents or someone else to take care of them.

>>2. Those people often don't speak a language we know.
>That's a problem... If they don't speak the language they should
>not stay...

As adrianxw said, where should they go? We can send them to the countries around like Germany or Belgium, but they don't speak those languages too. In fact a lot of them are from countries of the third world, they don't speak European local languages. You can't expect someone who fled from Mali or Ethiopia to be able to speak Dutch when he/she gets here. In fact, I think most of you would not be able to. English is a world-language, but a lot of them have a poor mastering of it.

>>3. Those people usually find it hard to accept our way of living
>>and culture, especially if they are from an country where Islam
>>is the main religion.
>That's their problem... If they don't accept it as it is they should
>leave...

I don't agree. Yes, they have to accept our way of living, but we also have to respect their way of living. A lot of refugees try to adapt to live more easily in our country, but it is hard. Especially since they don't master our language.

>>Countries should only accept immigrant who can work in the
>>country and don't have any problems accepting the way of life
>>in that country...

Note that I'm not talking about immigrants, but about refugees. People who fled from their country to find a safe place.

I think, when the war in Iraq will start, thousands of people from Kurdistan and Iraq will fly to Europe. I'm really wondering if those countries who want to attack Iraq are realizing what huge problems this will give.

OneStiffRod
01-13-2003, 01:46 PM
America has Many Many refugees and illegals, anyone coming from CUBA is granted immediate residency. Fortunately, the US is sooo big we don't feel much and in fact many foreingers have created there own communities like china town or korean town. Most seem to blend in quite nicely and others create their communities in areas where the economy has never been good - so I feel that they bring new life to those areas. For Mexicans here in Cali there is like a mass migration to KANSAS which is smack dab in the middle of the country - usually most ppl go west when they migrate. There is a downside also, they often settle in poor areas and adopt the harsh ways of the inner city gangs - in America if u r born here u are considered a US citizen so we have illegal mexicans who have 5 or 6 kids all become citizens but they live in sqwualer and in bad neighborhoods and become gang members.

The biggest complaint is that foreigners take American Jobs, I'm sure it's the same argument across europe - however, I think many more jobs are lost to GLOBALIZATION in where American companies have packed up and left to exploit cheaper labor in a 3rd world country.

America has a strange effect also that I see, anyone who comes here from anywhere actually transforms into an american. They dress and even speak like americans - I saw a show where we accepted some SUDAN men (the Lost boys) who were rail thin and didn't speak much english - they were incredibly dark skinned and just looked AKWARD if u were an American. After 1-year they all dressed like a normal American would, they put on weight, they spoke almost perfect english but still with an accent, and their skin actually became lighter - that's strange.

OneStiffRod
01-13-2003, 01:53 PM
>>I think, when the war in Iraq will start, thousands of people from Kurdistan and Iraq will fly to Europe. I'm really wondering if those countries who want to attack Iraq are realizing what huge problems this will give

Actually, the KURDS in the North have a thoroughly modern society up there. They are actually building a metropolis with high rise buildings, paved roads and everything else. They live a FREE and prosperuous life due to the NO FLY ZONES maintained by the US & UK. I would argue that they live much better than IRAQI's.

Most IRAQI defectors and refugees will return to IRAQ, if u ask them they are begging the US to remove SADDAM so they can go back, so the sanctions can be lifted, so we can FINALLY END the WAR.

ammar
01-13-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by adrianxw
>>>
>>2. Those people often don't speak a language we know.
That's a problem... If they don't speak the language they should not stay...
<<<

... and go where? A good number of our "guests" speak their own Somali dialect, outside of Somalia, there is nowhere, so, where?

>>>
Countries should only accept immigrant who can work in the country and don't have any problems accepting the way of life in that country...
<<<

What happens to all the others?

Countries should not be responsible to everyone...
Each country should be responsible for it's people... Then they might help others...
Maybe immigrants should be given an chance to lean the language for a while and them start working, because if a country has given some one a safe place to live in... He should pay back to that country...

golfinguy4
01-13-2003, 04:50 PM
Personally, I don't believe in National Religions or Languages. Just use whatever most people use.

BTW, for all the Americans here, by 2010/2012 or something like that, Spanish will be the most commonly used language in America

joshdick
01-13-2003, 11:22 PM
Where's the calculus? :confused: I wanted calculus:( You got my hopes up

novacain
01-14-2003, 12:57 AM
In 2002 Australia had over 120,000 'asylum seekers' (for a population of <20million). In 2001 it was around 20,000.

Mainly arriving on boats organised by professional smugglers and departing from Indonesia. These boats are unseaworth, overloaded and regularly sink.

Most are from Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq. Many however are from other countries seeking a better lifestyle (who can blame them? thats why I'm in Australia).

The last election here was 'stolen' on a miss represented report that asylum seekers on a boat threw their children overboard to avoid being returned to Indonesia.

The governement claims certain islands as Australian Terrirory for fishing ect but then had to change the law so organised people smugglers could not use these tiny islands as drop off points (the asylum seekers land on a rock in the ocean and are then allowed to apply for Australian resisdency)

It takes our immigration service up to two years to process an application. This is due to the number of appeals granted ect. This delay seems to be a tactic to discourage other asylum seekers.

The government even offers a cash bonus to return home (mainly to Afghaniis).

We have now changed the laws so that when you leave your country, the first country you reach must be the one you apply for asylum from.

adrianxw
01-14-2003, 03:37 AM
>>> Each country should be responsible for it's people...

Noble sentiment, but what happens when they are not?

>>> Maybe immigrants

We are not talking about legal immigrants here, we are talking about refugees and asylum seekers who have fled their home, and for whatever reason, feel they cannot return to their home country.

>>>
should be given an chance to lean the language for a while and them start working, because if a country has given some one a safe place to live in... He should pay back to that country...
<<<

This is the area where the right wingers criticise. You see, that is exactly what happens here. It costs a fortune to house and feed these people, they are taught the language and trained, and then, if their asylum bid is accepted, they then compete for jobs against our own people. We, like many places, do have a rising unemployment problem.

The argument is, to "pay back" his host for granting him a safe shelter - he should go home when it is reckoned to be safe to do so. The problem then is, they like what they see here, and don't want ot go back.

minesweeper
01-14-2003, 03:39 AM
>>We have now changed the laws so that when you leave your country, the first country you reach must be the one you apply for asylum from.<<

We have that too, but it's wholly unworkable here in Europe.

ammar
01-14-2003, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by adrianxw
>>> Each country should be responsible for it's people...

Noble sentiment, but what happens when they are not?

>>> Maybe immigrants

We are not talking about legal immigrants here, we are talking about refugees and asylum seekers who have fled their home, and for whatever reason, feel they cannot return to their home country.

>>>
should be given an chance to lean the language for a while and them start working, because if a country has given some one a safe place to live in... He should pay back to that country...
<<<

This is the area where the right wingers criticise. You see, that is exactly what happens here. It costs a fortune to house and feed these people, they are taught the language and trained, and then, if their asylum bid is accepted, they then compete for jobs against our own people. We, like many places, do have a rising unemployment problem.

The argument is, to "pay back" his host for granting him a safe shelter - he should go home when it is reckoned to be safe to do so. The problem then is, they like what they see here, and don't want ot go back.

I'ld like to add that some countries need immigrant( educated and trained ) because they don't have a big population...

adrianxw
01-14-2003, 07:07 AM
>>> I'ld like to add that some countries need immigrant( educated and trained ) because they don't have a big population...

Again, I think you're talking about a very different case. Often the refugees/asylum seekers are relatively poorly educted. They are unable to "walk into a job" here.

Asylum seekers with good skills still have to overcome a language problem - if they don't speak Danish, then they will have problems finding a job in all but a few specific areas where the "business" is by it's nature, international and hence tends to work in English.

Even very highly skilled foreign doctors with no Danish but perfect English, for example, will not be directly employable, because their prospective patients might not speak English well or even at all.

>>> don't have a big population...

We don't. About 5.5 million.

Shiro
01-14-2003, 12:41 PM
>The biggest complaint is that foreigners take American Jobs

Refugees cannot work here, I don't know exactly how it is in other European countries, but I think it is the same situation.

>Actually, the KURDS in the North have a thoroughly modern
>society up there.

But don't forget that Saddam doesn't like the Kurds, neither does Turkey. There are a lot of Kurds in Europe who fled for the armies of Turkey and Iraq hunting for them. Currently it is a bit more quiet since Iraq has a different problem. They built a modern society there, but they are not safe. You can compare it in some way with Israel and the Palestines.

>Most IRAQI defectors and refugees will return to IRAQ

A lot of Iraqi refugees are currently in Europe and a lot will come when the war starts. Probably a lot of them will return, but fact is that when they are here, we have to take care of them. And that will take a lot of money and organisation.

>Personally, I don't believe in National Religions or Languages.
>Just use whatever most people use.

English is the most used language. I guess this also counts for Europe, with German as a good second one. The problem is that in Europe there still are a lot of people who don't speak English. A lot of refugees are send to asylum centres (correct English?) on the countryside, where not everyone masters English very well. So they still have to learn the basics national language.

>The government even offers a cash bonus to return home

Same here. They can get some money and a ticket home. But the real refugees, those who fled from their countries because of something like a war, don't. They want a safe place to stay, not a cash bonus and a ticket back home into the war.

>I'ld like to add that some countries need immigrant( educated
>and trained ) because they don't have a big population...

Often it is not the size of the population, but the composition of the population. You need certain people, like medical experts, in your country. If you don't have them, you need to get them.

So the size does not really matter. For example, the Netherlands has about the same area as Danmark. Danmark has about 5.5 million people, the Netherlands have a bit more than 16 million. So in this context we have a big population, but we do have a lack of people working in education and care.

minesweeper
01-14-2003, 12:54 PM
>>Often it is not the size of the population, but the composition of the population. You need certain people, like medical experts, in your country. If you don't have them, you need to get them.

So the size does not really matter. For example, the Netherlands has about the same area as Danmark. Danmark has about 5.5 million people, the Netherlands have a bit more than 16 million. So in this context we have a big population, but we do have a lack of people working in education and care.<<

I think just about every country has shortages in health and education sectors. Anyway I was going to say that you are right in that you need the correct composition of population. A significant problem in Britain now is that after the war there was a baby boom. Now that generation are retiring or approaching retirement. Only the thing is that they didn't continue with the baby boom rate of reproduction. So now there are not enough people of working age to support themselves and all the old folk. Because of this we need educated immigrants to work and generate tax for pensions. Only that leads to another problem that we have.....overcrowdedness. England is a tiny island, it could fit inside one of America's states, yet we have a population of 60 million. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Shiro
01-14-2003, 01:12 PM
The same problem here. The number of people above 65 is growing and growing, but the number of working people and children is not growing that fast. So every year a relative smaller number of working people has to bring up the money. That is one of the reasons a number of political parties here propose that people have to work also after they turned 65. Currently people retire when they turn 65, some even are able to retire earlier.

I read in the newspaper of our city that a lot of the younger people, mainly from central-Africa, are going back. Most of the people who applied for asylum and were granted asylum are the older people. We also have to pay for them, to me that is no problem, as being a professional software engineer I earn a bit more than a minimum income, but I can understand the people who have a minimum income or even a payment do have problems with it.

Currently there are elections going on and I hope the parties on the left-wing will win, else we will get serious trouble here. A lot of parties on the right-wing want to almost close the border and get rid of most of the refugees. Besides, they want to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

That is, in my opinion, not the way to handle, we should stay solidary with those refugees and also with the poor people in our country. We should give the refugees a safe place and let the rich pay more, the strongers shoulders have to bear the heaviest weights.

Nick
01-14-2003, 02:32 PM
I don't think alot of you understand how much these people
want to fit in. This one hispanic women made me a deal ...
She would give her daughter for marriage if only I tought her daughter english. :(