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napkin111
01-04-2003, 03:24 AM
I just got the pre-alpha E3 Doom III leak. All I have to say is "HOLY-POO-I'M-GONNA-GO-PRE-ORDER-IT-NOW!!!" That said, what do you guys think of this all? I read some other boards that John Carmack (the man himself) said that he knows it was ATI and that their business arrangement is going to suffer for it. I think this leak will actually help the sales for Doom III.

http://ludo.netonline.no/~imho/doom3.html

//napKIN

foniks munkee
01-04-2003, 07:05 AM
What he is probably worried about is reviews cropping up in the media on what is an unfinished product. An unfavourable review or two does have the potential to influence the less knowledgable members of the gaming community. And judging by some of my recent online experiences that seems to be a whole lot of potential customers.

Polymorphic OOP
01-04-2003, 08:48 AM
Heh, you do realize that it was leaked MONTHS ago :p. You're a little late. I played it on a 2.4 Ghz with a GeForce 4 Ti (128 meg) with a gig of ram, and the framerate was awful (talking 1 or 2 frames per second sometimes). Nothing really impressive, but I guess that's to be expected from an alpha. I never really liked id games much anyways, just the engines. They need more plot in their Doom series.

DavidP
01-04-2003, 09:17 AM
>They need more plot in their Doom series.

If you ever bothered to read the documentation that came with the original Doom and Doom II, you would know that there is actually a pretty developed plot.

Polymorphic OOP
01-04-2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by DavidP
If you ever bothered to read the documentation that came with the original Doom and Doom II, you would know that there is actually a pretty developed plot.

There is a big difference between writing a backstory in documentation and actually integrating the story with the game.

Travis Dane
01-04-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Polymorphic OOP
I never really liked id games much anyways, just the engines. They need more plot in their Doom series.

I'm in love with ID's games,but you're right about the plot's,
its mostly the graphics that matter in the doom and quake series.

[edit]

By the way, i did play Doom3 Alpha as well but never really fell as
low as 2 fps, but you must admit with those gfx,im happy it even
booted:)

RoD
01-04-2003, 10:16 AM
The reason hes worried is exactly what poly said, low performance because its an alpha. When i played it on my xp 2000+/voodoo 5 (no clocking) i was only hitting 15-20 fps max and averaging around 10-12. Thats seriously low for my card, but as far as gameplay and what not i'm hit, i'm going to pre-order at software etc soon.

Polymorphic OOP
01-04-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Travis Dane
By the way, i did play Doom3 Alpha as well but never really fell as
low as 2 fps, but you must admit with those gfx,im happy it even
booted:)

Yeah, for the most part it was 15 to 20 (at 800x600 res I think it was), which is really way too slow, but it did, in fact, jump many times to about 2 frames per second.

Shadow12345
01-04-2003, 10:22 AM
Yeah that was released a LOOOOONG time ago, I've already downloaded and played it. They cheated by showing a prescripted demo at E3 making it seem like it could actually run fast, but it can't. I'm wondering how they are even going to be able to pull off stenciled shadows using shadow volumes in that game at interactive frame rates...I mean I'm sure carmack will pull it off, but I read a thing he sent to mark kilgard (nvidia software engineer) about how he plans on actually getting it to work. There are so many steps involved with creating shadow volumes. Then doing the tests to determine if a pixel is inside or outside a shadow volume, and then doing a second inverse test (otherwise when the camera is inside the shadow volume it won't work) and then turning off the depth and color buffers and then drawing the outline of the object where the rays from the light source intersect with the objects in the world. I haven't even attempted doing shadows (no sir ee!) but I have done simple reflections with the stencil buffer and even that was a total pain in the ass to get to run at a reasonable speed.

ok ill stfu now

carmack on shadow volumes (http://cvs1.nvidia.com/OpenGL/doc/whitepapers/CarmackOnShadowVolumes.txt)

RoD
01-04-2003, 10:26 AM
carmack is a genious imo, and easily the best programmer alive. I respect him a great deal for both what he has done and what he'll continue to do, and if anyone can make it work, he will.

RoD
01-04-2003, 10:32 AM
when he said u can noclip fly without the whatever, was he referring to like in halflife when you noclip through the roof and everything gets messed up?

Shadow12345
01-04-2003, 10:43 AM
when he said u can noclip fly without the whatever, was he referring to like in halflife when you noclip through the roof and everything gets messed up?


No, half life doesn't use stenciled shadow volumes. The reason it does that has to do with how the bsp format is used, you have to basically be inside the world in order for calculations to take place, it doesn't know how to handle things outside the world, hence the reason why when you create worls with the hammer (worldcraft) editor you can't have 'leaks' (holes) to the outside of the world, it has to be sealed. Poly would be able to answer that question more elegantly.

RoD
01-04-2003, 10:59 AM
if it doens't know how to handle it then how come u can get out of it, i know that sounds dumb but....ugg i confused myself.

Shadow12345
01-04-2003, 11:29 AM
if it doens't know how to handle it then how come u can get out of it, i know that sounds dumb but....ugg i confused myself.


Again I don't know the specifics of what's actually going on in the engine when things 'get all screwy' when you fly outside of the world or inside brushes. It probably has to do with the direction all of the polygons are facing so whenever you go inside a brush or outside of the world you are essentially on the 'wrong side' of things and calculations cannot be done properly (i.e lighting and shading but there is also something wrong with the way it does the rendering, it gets blurry like it isn't swapping the buffers).

Yeah...PooP!

RoD
01-04-2003, 11:54 AM
that would make a bit more sense.

Shadow12345
01-04-2003, 11:57 AM
are you interested in getting into game programming ride or die?

RoD
01-04-2003, 11:59 AM
actually first person shooters is exactly what i want to do as my carreer, problem is in learning i need a solid foundation to go off, which is why i love classes on it as opposed to un-clear tutorials, but my class is going to slow for me. I am trying to find a clean, precise beginning tutorial into game programming, perferably with directx, but its hard when u haven't really moved off console yet.

napkin111
01-04-2003, 03:47 PM
I know what you mean RoD, I did some SDL after I learned console and I think that was a good step. Now I'm starting OpenGL from tutorials at Gametutorials (http://www.gametutorials.com/Tutorials/OpenGL/OpenGL_Pg1.htm) . These tutorials are right up my alley because I like to read through finished code and then manipulate it. I think its a good way to learn how stuff is done.

As for 2 fps, I'm running a 1.6 P4, Gf4 Ti4600, and 512 meg DDR ram and I average 30 fps standing and moving, then when hold down the machine gun trigger.....yeah, I get about 3 fps....but just running around I think is great (I was running 800x600). I know it came out months ago but I just got it a couple of days ago. And about the story-line, I play enough RPGs and read enough books for my share of story, sometimes its nice to just sit down, watch some intro about scientists creating a portal to hell, then blast some zombies without having to worry about other shtuff.

//napKIN

RoD
01-04-2003, 03:54 PM
i'll have to check out that site, thnx for mentioning it. I never really understood the SDL as to what it is, what it does, and how/why people use it.

Shadow12345
01-04-2003, 04:29 PM
I was running 800x600


How, might I ask, were you running at 800x600 in a demo that was set to run at 640x480 and provided no way of changing the resolution?? Unless I missed something...

also rod check out nehe.gamedev.net, and if you want help on api specific stuff use gamedev.net's forums. I would suggest OpenGL over directdoodle, but, it's your life :)

was anyone else here like completely obsessed with the original dooms? Like I mean loved it more than anything? I loved (I mean love, with a passion) all that demon stuff and the impaled bodies and the satanic messages and that big goat head monster demon thing with john romero inside that says at the end backwards "to win the game you must kill me, john romero"

I loved it

I'm sick, I just got done watching the exorcist III :)

Travis Dane
01-04-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Shadow12345
How, might I ask, were you running at 800x600 in a demo that was set to run at 640x480 and provided no way of changing the resolution?? Unless I missed something...

There was an INI file located in the Doom3 dir somewhere wich
allowed total manipulation of the settings

RoD
01-04-2003, 04:47 PM
directdoodle haha...

hmm thnx for the links. I have thought of openGL, isn't that a portable form of graphics, ie can't that be used on nix also?

Shadow
01-04-2003, 04:52 PM
So, is Doom 3 just slow regardless of the power you have right now? Are they looking into optimizations? If so, what are they projecting for cpu, ram, and video power?

Is the alpha going to be pretty close to the retail release? Or will the speed area be heavily optimized?

Someone clue me in here. Thank you.

Shadow12345
01-04-2003, 05:26 PM
There was an INI file located in the Doom3 dir somewhere wich
allowed total manipulation of the settings


I did not know that. did you know you can already make maps for doom iii, just go to console and type editor or something like that



So, is Doom 3 just slow regardless of the power you have right now? Are they looking into optimizations? If so, what are they projecting for cpu, ram, and video power?


unless your computer is the size of texas, yes

the only thing i've read from carmack about what the minimum requirements of doom iii will be video cards with at least a 128bit ddr memory pipeline, I don't remember anything about gpu, cpu, or memory speeds and it's supposedely going to be released next spring.



I have thought of openGL, isn't that a portable form of graphics, ie can't that be used on nix also?


Yep, any operating system. 'Open'(to all platforms) graphics library. using glut (gl utilities) you don't even have to setup a window, you just call glutCreateWindow passing a name to give to the window. this works because the glut functions act the same, it's kind of like an interface, but you basically plugin the correct dlls (or whatever they are called on other operating systems). Mark Kilgard from nvidia wrote glut.

RoD
01-04-2003, 05:31 PM
hmm i'll have to research glut, thnx.

Shadow12345
01-04-2003, 06:53 PM
hmm i'll have to research glut, thnx.


I have everything needed to install glut on your system, plus I could provide you with some sample code (actually I have an entire cd full of it, from the OpenGL Superbible, that entire books uses GLUT). You gotta ask for it though, I don't want to post unless you are serious. Plus the window code isnt' really all that bad if you wanna build from scratch. Just create a new win32 project, select the one where it will generate a 'hello world' application and that's already 65% of nehe's basecode. From there after you just have to delete the resource files unless you want them, and set up code to select the pixel format, and all of the wiggle (wgl, windows gl) functions to select the proper contexts (device and rendering contexts for windows and opengl). But that isn't too bad once you're familiar with it.

If you are planning on not joining the dark (directx) side and plan to continue looking into opengl, buy opengl game programming. I have it and love it, it's too bad the bindings are falling apart on my 65 dollar book :(

RoD
01-04-2003, 07:00 PM
Yea i'm definitly serious, i have been kinda waiting for a solid path into the gaming area of programming in c++. I'll check out that book, also, my library may have it or i may be able to get an ebook. Whats the name of that author?

Shadow12345
01-04-2003, 07:45 PM
richard wright and michael sweet

RoD
01-05-2003, 10:07 AM
thank you, i'd love to continue this conversation later after i do my english paper.

RoD
01-05-2003, 05:39 PM
well i didn't find that book on the net as an ebook or on amazon(yet), but i did find a book of the same title by Dave Astle, have you used this book?

theres a link to it here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761533303/qid=1041809749/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9946571-3652102?v=glance&s=books#product-details)

RoD
01-05-2003, 06:25 PM
I decided to go on a little search before i got back into some other stuff, and incase anyone else is going to begin in opengl here are some links i picked up off google.

http://cg.cs.uni-bonn.de/personal-pages/sattler/opengl.html
http://members.net-tech.com.au/alaneb/opengl.html
http://vblinks.netfirms.com/advance/index.htm
http://www.xmission.com/~nate/tutors.html