PDA

View Full Version : First Human clone



Pages : [1] 2

Commander
12-27-2002, 10:47 PM
so....................................

who many of ya think it's a fake?

this is what i'm thinking of...what's gonna happen to the ppl who made it cause human cloning , as far as i know, is against the law in the us...

this is what creacked me up..the ppl who made the clone claim that human was made by aliens:D
the human race never stops amazing me!!

LordVirusXXP
12-27-2002, 10:55 PM
Hmmm... I officially gave up on everyone in the entire world a long time ago. A lot of people are stupid, and just plain suck.
Like the retards that want to make human clones. I wish people would just quit trying with this whole cloning thing. It's dumb. As if the world wasn't over populated enough. And I'm expecting some smart as reply to this post by Ride or Die within a few minutes.

Malcar Morab
12-27-2002, 11:13 PM
I have to admit, I agrea. Cloning is illegal...so why do people try to loophole the law? It's sad when people begin losing their integrity, that is if they even had any in the first place...

I will be very, very interested to see where this all ends up, the future we are involved in is a hard one to repeate.

LordVirusXXP
12-27-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Malcar Morab
I will be very, very interested to see where this all ends up

It'll end up with everyone dead and a bunch of freakin' clones going around mindlessly killing each other and struggling to survive in a horrible world covered in an evil green mist that poisons your lungs and causes you to vomit.

Commander
12-27-2002, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by LordVirusXXP
It'll end up with everyone dead and a bunch of freakin' clones going around mindlessly killing each other and struggling to survive in a horrible world covered in an evil green mist that poisons your lungs and causes you to vomit. sci-fi is starting to get to ya!!
personally(as some of you already know) i have noting against cloning, but i do have something against those idiots who tell people all these "things" about cloning without knowing what cloning really is.
there's one thing that i wanna know, if that kid they are saying IS infact a clone, then it is as old as it;s mother(30) so would is die faster because i don;t think scientists have perfected the age reset thing yet. I wouldn;t be surprised if they did perfect ti though, who knows what they do down there!!

Nick
12-27-2002, 11:44 PM
Hmmm... I officially gave up on everyone in the entire world a long time ago. A lot of people are stupid, and just plain suck.
Like the retards that want to make human clones. I wish people would just quit trying with this whole cloning thing. It's dumb. As if the world wasn't over populated enough.

Why does Rael want clones? Does he thinks
that by cloning a human this will some how support
his alien support group?

Dolby
12-27-2002, 11:44 PM
I think they're just doing it for publicity. The source too is very unreliable, I wouldn't trust anyone who thinks that we're made by aliens... I'm thinking they are probably doing this to divert the attention of the public, maybe it all roots down to Bush, maybe he has some hidden agenda that he doesn't want us to know so they are using this "Hey we've made a human clone" headline a big thing so they can do something secretly, they are so evil!!!... oh well, i guess I'm just being paranoid...

kevinalm
12-27-2002, 11:57 PM
Although I don't think we need to worry about a real life version of "Attack of the Clones", there are some real concerns. Especially the "age reset" mentioned already by Commander. After all, there is a tried and true method of reproduction that is cheap, efficient, and a lot more fun. ;)

What really bothers me is the following:

1. Cloning of entire human beings is basically pointless. Identical twins (natural clones) often become very different people, so cloning doesn't reliably produce a particular type of person. What then is accomplished by cloning except possibly reducing the diversity of the gene pool? The only reason is to gain notariaty, to me a very questionable motive to bring a child into the world.

2. This sort of nonsense will interfere with legitimate research. It would be nice if we were able to grow someone a new liver or kidney instead of transplants and immunosuppresion drugs.

There's my 2 cents.

joshdick
12-27-2002, 11:59 PM
I think it's obvious from what y'all have been posting in this thread that you don't understand the concept of therapeutic cloning. Here's an example. You need an organ transplant. There's a huge waiting list, so you'll likely die before getting the organ you need. Even if you do get the organ you need, it's entirely possible for your body to reject it, as it realizes that it is foreign.

Cloning might some day solve that problem. If someone needs an organ, it could be cloned. No waiting and more importantly, no rejection, because the organ would be genetically identical to one's self.

I think that therapeutic cloning holds much hope for the advancement of medical science; however, reproductive cloning seems rather scary given all of the ethical questions it raises. I also think that when many talk about cloning, especially lawmakers, they need to differentiate between therapeutic and reproductive cloning and deal with those two issues seperately.

LordVirusXXP
12-28-2002, 12:01 AM
If I could clone my arms, I'd be like Goro, and I'd go around smashing things with my tremendous power! Mwuahahahahaa~!

Fordy
12-28-2002, 03:01 AM
Firstly - LordVirusXXP, stop posting rubbish....you are getting about as popular as a dose of clap on these boards...and frankly noboby gives a damn about what you think.

As to cloning, I am not too worried about it because there's nothing to be done that can stop it.....I dont see that you can practically expect to stall a branch of scientific evolution because it doesnt sit right with the current moral climate. As soon as possibilities like this come within grasp, then its inevitable that they will be achieved by someone. I imagine that the same was said of "test tube babies" some 30 years ago (or whenever it was)......

Nick
12-28-2002, 03:48 AM
As to cloning, I am not too worried about it because there's nothing to be done that can stop it.....I dont see that you can practically expect to stall a branch of scientific evolution because it doesnt sit right with the current moral climate. As soon as possibilities like this come within grasp, then its inevitable that they will be achieved by someone. I imagine that the same was said of "test tube babies" some 30 years ago (or whenever it
was)......

We can stop it, just like we can stop other fruitless scientific
persuits such as weapons research.
Any examination of this case concludes that Rael is a total nutcase. Even 5 years ago my physics teacher talked a little about him. Should we really put human life into these peoples hands? There is no telling if that baby is heathy, age reset problems, random mutations etc.

joshdick
12-28-2002, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by Nick
We can stop it, just like we can stop other fruitless scientific persuits such as weapons research.

How can you say that cloning is fruitless? Did you read my post about organ transplants? Ever hear about stem cells? And are you suggesting that the U.S. just give up entirely on weapons research?


Should we really put human life into these peoples hands? There is no telling if that baby is heathy, age reset problems, random mutations etc.

That is exactly why this research should be not only allowed by our gov't, but funded by it as well. Then, we could ensure that everything was being done properly. Unfortunately, because people are close minded and quick to judge, cloning has been banned for many and left in the hands of nut cases. If the gov't would fund it, it could control it as much as it wanted. That would be the smart thing for our Congress to do; however, this Congress hasn't felt like doing anything smart lately, so we'll probably have to wait until the Democrats regain control of Washington.

Nick
12-28-2002, 05:24 AM
That is exactly why this research should be not only allowed by our gov't, but funded by it as well. Then, we could ensure that everything was being done properly.

I'm a democrat but thinking that the goverment can
take care of everything properly is naive.



How can you say that cloning is fruitless? Did you read my post about organ transplants? Ever hear about stem cells? And are you suggesting that the U.S. just give up entirely on weapons
research?

I was specifically talking about reproductive cloning. Why should
we spend billions of dollars on creating a organ clone so that
we can have companies charge $1000s of dollars to create
each organ clone? Meanwhile there are people starving, in war, without love.



U.S. just give up entirely on weapons
research?

It is not possible now were're too late.
We already have enough power
to destroy the human race.

vasanth
12-28-2002, 05:38 AM
As some one pointed out test tube babies was a taboo .. but now it is accepted.. During the 70's i think people though that using a lightning arrester was bad since it was agains the will of god(as if god wanted to destroy the building) but now it is an essential part of all buildings.. So i ultimately think that the human race will accept this also like it did with the other concepts.. New things are such as these are always shunned.. But who know what other benifits we might derive out of it... Many people feel that man is playing god.... Let him if he has the ability..

I think in another few thousand years man will be able to create new life forms.. May be we will be introducing life on many distant planets and solar systems.. SO one day we might be God to another life forms...

Nick
12-28-2002, 06:12 AM
As some one pointed out test tube babies was a taboo .. but now it is accepted.. During the 70's i think people though that using a lightning arrester was bad since it was agains the will of god(as if god wanted to destroy the building) but now it is an essential part of all buildings.. So i ultimately think that the human race will accept this also like it did with the other concepts.. New things are such as these are always shunned.. But who know what other benifits we might derive out of it... Many people feel that man is playing god.... Let him if he has the ability..

This has grave consequences. Ethically, what is wrong with
killing the mother since they are the same person? What's
wrong with creating 1000 clones of yourself ready for battle?
You would have 1001 lives then right?

Clyde
12-28-2002, 07:22 AM
Heavens what nonsense.

"Ethically, what is wrong with killing the mother since they are the same person?"

Clones are NOT copies of people, two people with the same DNA are two DIFFERENT people.

Just as it is immoral today to kill one identical twin, it would be immoral tommorow to kill one clone. There is no difference.

"What's wrong with creating 1000 clones of yourself ready for battle?"

.... well to start with you would have an army of babies.

And you've branched into sci-fi again, we do not have artificial wombs, you would have to find a thousand women willing to bear your thousand clones.

In terms of making yourself an army, it would be no different to having 1000 children for the purposes of an army 20 years down the line.

"You would have 1001 lives then right?""

No, you would have one life.

Travis Dane
12-28-2002, 08:47 AM
I think it's easily possile to clone humans,i don't really believe
in that soul crap,of course when i'm dead and standing in front
of god i might consider believing it, anyhow whe will achieve a
level of technology to clone humans,it won't be so soon but
it will come.I do think it's dangerous to clone people,for the
people who get cloned will feel a little pointless because the
clones can do exactly what they can. I just think you should leave
the cloning alone,it's messing with nature (but that wouldnt be
the first time whe mess with nature)

vasanth
12-28-2002, 09:28 AM
Well it looks like the move Star Wars-- Attack of the clones or what ever has had a big impact on all the people. Why the hell donít people understand that a clone is a baby born from a women womb as a normal baby. The only difference is instead of using the DNA of father and mother. The baby will have an identical DNA of its parent. There might be some problems now such as DNA mutilation etc.... But that I believe will be overcome...

The baby or the clone born is not guaranteed to be the same as the person cloned. It will look the same and will have the same genetical makeup. But when it grows up it might not be the same person. If you clone Hitler you will not get a clone that will grow up to be Hitler. The personís characters will depend on the environment he/she was brought up in...

So in next 50 years our children might come from school telling us that Bill Gates clone has joined their school.

And just because the other person has the same DNA as you have it does not mean he and you are the same. You have your own brains and the clone has also got its own. The clone can think on its own as you can... SO YOU AND THE CLONE WILL BE TWO DIFFERENT PERSONS.

And not necessarily the clone will be able to do the same thing as its parent.

So people believe me this is not similar to the Star War movie...

*ClownPimp*
12-28-2002, 12:42 PM
This is the biggest reason for opposition to cloning... ignorance. Before people start spouting off reasons why its unethical and coming up with possible abuses of cloning, please learn a little about the subject first!

Nick
12-28-2002, 02:11 PM
Just as it is immoral today to kill one identical twin, it would be immoral tommorow to kill one clone. There is no difference.

This is not what the Raelieans believe. Obviously I don't
believe in it but it's one possible mistaken viewpoint. I already know that they are different people since I'm a twin.



And you've branched into sci-fi again, we do not have artificial wombs, you would have to find a thousand women willing to bear your thousand clones.

Don't you think an artificial womb is possible?

Commander
12-28-2002, 04:09 PM
reproductive cloning is useful in some cases, say you have a kid who needs a bone marrow trasplant but there is no doner available. then you could clone that child and get the bone marrow and save him.

the bonus: you got another kid!

Clyde
12-28-2002, 05:30 PM
"Don't you think an artificial womb is possible?"

At some point in the future perhaps, but not yet, even so you are still presented with an army of babies.

Furthermore it makes no difference whether you make yourself an army of clones or use normal eggs and sperm.

RoD
12-28-2002, 06:33 PM
no way i am going to read all of this, obviously due to the depth at which its already gone i'm sure, but it brings to mind the episode of the simpsons where homer....well cloned himself lol.

golfinguy4
12-28-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Commander
reproductive cloning is useful in some cases, say you have a kid who needs a bone marrow trasplant but there is no doner available. then you could clone that child and get the bone marrow and save him.

the bonus: you got another kid!

Yes, but then you kill the cloned baby to get all of the bone marrow.

Commander
12-28-2002, 11:36 PM
not really, a bone marrow doner has no reason to die just because s/he donated bone marrow.

joshdick
12-29-2002, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by golfinguy4
Yes, but then you kill the cloned baby to get all of the bone marrow.
Wow, this goes to show how little you know about bone marrow transplants. Commander wasn't suggesting that we clone babies so that we can kill them and harvest all of their organs. He was saying that if a bone marrow donor was needed, the recipient could be cloned; then, the clone would donate his bone marrow, a process which is not lethal as you suggested. The added bonus is that because the donated tissue is genetically the same as the recipient; therefore, it will not be rejected by the recipient's body.

vasanth
12-29-2002, 01:56 AM
Ohh boy.. i though i was ignorant about many issues.. now i am happy since i know i am not that ignorant...

People, first please understand a concept before jumping to concusions.... I am no cloning expert and i should agree i know little.. But that little i know perfect...

I think it is always the ignorant people creating problems every where...

zahid
12-29-2002, 02:04 AM
Cloning isn't directly doing harm to us.

Unlike me, few people are talking from the point of view of religion. And more to protest in future.

But of course lots of people around the world are interested to know the next.

So, I don't think it will be easy to stop.

Who knows, once there will be a "World (Human) Cloning Day".
You know? I will be interested to ... anyway forget for now.

vasanth
12-29-2002, 02:09 AM
I always believe that religion and science are two aspects that should not be mixed.......

joshdick
12-29-2002, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by vasanth
I think it is always the ignorant people creating problems every where...
How true. Ironically, those ignorant people are constantly out to get people smarter than them; thus, scientists who study evolution or cloning are called 'mad scientists', unethical, atheistic, and whatnot. So sad.

no-one
12-29-2002, 02:26 AM
im not getting involed in this stupidity except to say two things

1. TWINS ARE NOT CLONES THEY DO NOT SHARE THE SAME EXACT DNA!

2. think of the posibilites of cloning? clone you favorite hottie? eh eh!! i can imagine it now!! my own little (insert favorite hot chick here) the sign reads "clone you favorite celebrity for just pennies a day"!

if no-body else will fund cloning the porn industry and the perverts sure will.

joshdick
12-29-2002, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by no-one
think of the posibilites of cloning? clone you favorite hottie? eh eh!! i can imagine it now!! my own little (insert favorite hot chick here) the sign reads "clone you favorite celebrity for just pennies a day"!

if no-body else will fund cloning the porn industry and the perverts sure will.
WTF kind of porn are you into? Cloning produces a baby, you sicko. It'd take around 20 years until a clone would become hot, and by then, her mother will have been forgotten and have lost all appeal. The porn industry is not known for its patience. Instead, they base their business on instant gratification.

Geez, why don't people realize that cloning does not mean full grown people pop out of machines exactly like their parent ready to kill and destroy? Repeat after me: TV is not real. Movies are not real. It's all just make believe. TV is not real. . .

no-one
12-29-2002, 02:44 AM
it was a joke, chill.

joshdick
12-29-2002, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by no-one
it was a joke, chill.
Sorry. My friends are always telling me that I don't understand when they're just joking around. Once again, sorry.

Nick
12-29-2002, 12:02 PM
I think it is always the ignorant people creating problems every where...

True ignorance is too much trust in man.



not really, a bone marrow doner has no reason to die just
because s/he donated bone marrow.

How can you say that creating life just for its bone marrow
is moral?

*ClownPimp*
12-29-2002, 01:30 PM
>True ignorance is too much trust in man.

and being scared of something as promising as cloning beccause of ignorance is stupid

>How can you say that creating life just for its bone marrow
is moral?

Uhm. That statement implies that the baby will have no use after the marrow is harvested, ie. killed, not loved, given up for adoption, etc. That is completely ridiculous. As I read in an article about cloning, people have all sorts of selfish reasons for having children, the only difference now is that those reasons are brought to the surface. Furthermore, as long as the child is loved just like a non-cloned child, then there is nothing immoral about it.

Also, how can you justify not doing further research in such a promising field because of a few possible (some extremely unlikely) abuses of the technology?

Nick
12-29-2002, 03:55 PM
people have all sorts of selfish reasons for having children, the only difference now is that those reasons are brought to the surface.

This what I meant. Dont trust people. Just because
a large portion of society thinks some way does not
make it right. Conversly, what happens
if a large portion of society thinks it is immoral?
If this act is going to cause pain, anger and
distruption of society; this act in itself is immoral. So
any ethical discussion must involve the possible effects.



>How can you say that creating life just for its bone marrow
is moral?

Uhm. That statement implies that the baby will have no use after the marrow is harvested, ie. killed, not loved, given up for adoption, etc. That is completely ridiculous. As I read in an article about cloning, people have all sorts of selfish reasons for having children, the only difference now is that those reasons are brought to the surface. Furthermore, as long as the child is loved just like a non-cloned child, then there is nothing immoral about it.

Your are assuming that with the act of cloning there are no killed embroys, no health risk, and certaintly no pain to people
who disagree with clonning. This enough is to consider
it immoral. However look at the reasons for cloning. How would you feel as the clone who's bone marrow is used feel? Your only existance is to be physically used. Disgusting.
Clonning being immoral is further exemplified when you look at the reasons for Rael cloning expierments. Creation
to hurt the religions of the world. Disgusting. Creation
out of curiosity. Disgusting. Creation to be god like. Disgusting.

joshdick
12-29-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Nick
Conversly, what happens
if a large portion of society thinks it is immoral?
If this act is going to cause pain, anger and
distruption of society; this act in itself is immoral. So
any ethical discussion must involve the possible effects.
The end of slavery in the U.S. brought pain, anger, and quite a disruption to our society. That doesn't mean that ending slavery was immoral. You've got some pretty bad logic there.



Your are assuming that with the act of cloning there are no killed embroys, no health risk, and certaintly no pain to people
who disagree with clonning. This enough is to consider
it immoral.
Why would someone clone an embryo and then kill it? That make no sense whatsoever. Yes, we are assuming that cloning could be a good idea if there are no health risks. I also think a cure for cancer would be a good idea if there are no health risks. I hope that scientists work out all of the bugs in cloning. Once they do, I hope that cloning is used to advance medicine.

However look at the reasons for cloning. How would you feel as the clone who's bone marrow is used feel? Your only existance is to be physically used. Disgusting.
I'm certainly not suggesting that people be cloned only for their body parts. I was suggesting, however, that a family that was probably going to have more kids anyway should clone a kid, if that meant saving its life. As to the feelings of the clone, he would be a hero to the family, as he would've saved the life of his sibling.

Clonning being immoral is further exemplified when you look at the reasons for Rael cloning expierments. Creation
to hurt the religions of the world. Disgusting.
First of all, that religion isn't trying to hurt anyone. They're just trying to do what their god tells them to do. You know that if the Bible told you to clone, you would. Why do you expect anything different from them?

Creation out of curiosity. Disgusting. Creation to be god like. Disgusting.
Curiosity is what fuels innovation, discovery, and science in general. As for creation to be god-like, your assertion that it is disgusting is based soley on your personal beliefs which should have no relevance on public policy or scientific progress. Furthermore, scientists aren't trying to be god-like; they are merely trying to make life better for all of us by increasing the quality and length of life. How is that bad?

Nick
12-29-2002, 04:41 PM
The end of slavery in the U.S. brought pain, anger, and quite a disruption to our society. That doesn't mean that ending slavery was immoral. You've got some pretty bad logic there.

Perhaps it was. It might have been better to wait 10 or so
years and ultimatly educate the south. Other countries abolished
slavery and did not have to go to war. There is not
a single western nation today who practices slavery.



First of all, that religion isn't trying to hurt anyone. They're just trying to do what their god tells them to do. You know that if the Bible told you to clone, you would. Why do you expect anything different from them?

He's spreading lies about UFO's. He does not believe in God but
this does not stop him twisting his views. He is alot like Muhammad. He calls moses, Jesus and others "prophets" in order to make is cult more acceptable. He juxtaposes the cloned baby with Jesus. Clearly his only intent is to corrupt.

*ClownPimp*
12-29-2002, 04:41 PM
>So any ethical discussion must involve the possible effects

yes, but one also has to keep things in perspective. Any disruption to society will pass, but the benifits derived from cloning will last forever. There are many instances in history where something initially caused "pain and suffering" to society, yet in the long run the benifits far outweigh any disruption.

>Your are assuming that with the act of cloning there are no killed embroys, no health risk, and certaintly no pain to people who disagree with clonning

here your assuming "killing" an embryo is wrong, which is solely based on your religious beliefs (dont try and say it isnt)

I agree that reproductive cloning shouldnt be done until we can at demonstrate that there are no health risks associated with cloning to the person born. But, a total ban is not the answer.

"pain to people who disagree with cloning" is a ludacrus requirement for the reasons given by joshdick

>Your only existance is to be physically used. Disgusting
Wrong. As long as the child is loved just like any other child, he wouldnt feel "used"

>Clonning being immoral is further exemplified when you look at the reasons for Rael cloning expierments.

You cant take a particular case and generalize to all cases (havent you taken discrete mathematics? :))

>Creation to hurt the religions of the world

What?

>Creation out of curiosity. Disgusting

Again, this opinion is fueled by your religious view that human life is somehow special compared to animal life. Most scientists dont believe this therefore they dont see it as 'disgusting' or immoral.

>Creation to be god like. Disgusting

Again, this is fueled by your religious belief that God is the only creator of life.

*ClownPimp*
12-29-2002, 04:47 PM
>It might have been better to wait 10 or so
years and ultimatly educate the south

Tell that to the millions of slaves who are beaten and killed by their masters. Of course, waiting 10 or so years would have caused more pain and suffering to the slaves... so your logic about considering those who will be hurt falls apart.

>Other countries abolished slavery and did not have to go to war

Slavery and racist ideas were so imbedded in the southern culture that there was no alternative than forcing them to free the slaves.


EDIT: (didnt mean to press reply then)

>He's spreading lies about UFO's. He does not believe in God but
this does not stop him twisting his views. He is alot like Muhammad. He calls moses, Jesus and others "prophets" in order to make is cult more acceptable. He juxtaposes the cloned baby with Jesus.

ROFLMAO. And how do you know its a lie? How do yo uknow Muhammed wasnt correct? Why do you think your religion is more "correct" than others'?

> Clearly his only intent is to corrupt.
One could say the same thing about Catholic missionaries to go third-world countries and try to convert people to catholicism!

Nick
12-29-2002, 05:05 PM
Tell that to the millions of slaves who are beaten and killed by their masters. Of course, waiting 10 or so years would have caused more pain and suffering to the slaves... so your logic about considering those who will be hurt falls apart.

If the south chose freely to abolish slavery we would
not nearly have the present day problems. It took nearly
100 years for blacks to have equal rights. Having even
a few 1000 people beaten close to death is not close to
the destruction that the war caused. The war was started
only because the union thought it would be a quick war lasting
only a few battles.



ROFLMAO. And how do you know its a lie? How do yo uknow Muhammed wasnt correct? Why do you think your religion is
more "correct" than others'?

Wether your christian or aithest, there is enough
evidence to make the conclusion that there
was a person named Jesus and that he did claim to be
the mesiah. A true prophet cannot lie and a false
prophet is full of them. This has nothing against present
day muslims. I think God blesses everyone who faithfully
tries to understand.

joshdick
12-29-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by *ClownPimp*
>Creation out of curiosity. Disgusting

Again, this opinion is fueled by your religious view that human life is somehow special compared to animal life. Most scientists dont believe this therefore they dont see it as 'disgusting' or immoral.

How true. I always think it's funny when people say things like "We're not animals". I always think, 'Well, what the heck are you then, a plant?!' For all of you who are confused as to whether or not you are an animal, here is a basic key out of humans to the level of kingdom:
Can you see a human with the naked eye? Yes, then, humans are not microscopic bacteria or fungi.
Do humans eat food or just bask in the sun to get energy. You can sunbathe all you, but you'll still be hungry; hence, humans are not plants.
That leaves kindom Animalia. Yes, animals! *gasp, horror* Humans are animalsóplain and simple.


Originally posted by Nick
Your only existance is to be physically used. Disgusting
I don't see why the cloned child would even need to know the reason why it was born. It need only know that it is now loved. Think about all of the kids who were accidents, nothing more than the consequences of a single night of passion or a faulty contraceptive. Is it disgusting to have a child if it is not planned for? Of course not, so long as the parents love and care for their child.

*ClownPimp*
12-29-2002, 05:57 PM
>If the south chose freely to abolish slavery we would
not nearly have the present day problems

Why do you think the south would have freely abolished slavery in any reasonable amount of time? It would have taken many decades at least for it to come about on its own (i highly doubt it would have ever came about on its own). And how many lives of the slaves would have began and ended in captivity?

The southerners chose to fight for their "right" to have slaves. They died because they believed the right to keep slaves was worth fighting for. On the other hand, the slaves had no such choice. I dont see how you can conclude that it would have been more "moral" to allow the south to keep slaves than to force them to free the slaves. The southerners chose to fight. They chose to give their lives. That in no way compares to the situation the slaves were in.

>Having even a few 1000 people beaten close to death

I think you way underestimate the amount of cruel masters there were. Cruelty was the norm. Kindness was the exception. Open a history book.

>Wether your christian or aithest, there is enough
evidence to make the conclusion that there
was a person named Jesus and that he did claim to be
the mesiah.

Perhaps.

>A true prophet cannot lie and a false prophet is full of them

That is based on your understanding of a prophet. Muslims might not have the requirement that a prophet cannot lie. That doesnt make their prophet and less of one.

Nick
12-29-2002, 06:22 PM
The southerners chose to fight for their "right" to have slaves. They died because they believed the right to keep slaves was
worth fighting for.

I don't think so. They were fighting for the right to govern
themselves. Only at a certain point of the war did
Lincoln guarentee freedom to the slaves. Another example
would be the our revolution. Our founders did not fight
because tarrifs were too high. They fought because
they wanted to right to govern themselves the way they saw fit.

sean
12-29-2002, 06:24 PM
How do you tell between a flase prophet and a true one? It's like that riddle with the two guards. Ask them "If I asked the other guy who was the false prophet, what would he tell me?". They'd both give you the same answer, and that would be the true prophet. But then if you want to get into that, a flase prophet won't always lie, because in order to decieve you, he'll mix lies in with truth.

I was reading the article in the paper yesterday morning, personally, I just wish they'd done history a favor and chosen a better looking woman to clone.. Am I wrong? Who's with me?

Nick
12-29-2002, 06:40 PM
How do you tell between a flase prophet and a true one? It's like that riddle with the two guards. Ask them "If I asked the other guy who was the false prophet, what would he tell me?". They'd both give you the same answer, and that would be the true prophet. But then if you want to get into that, a flase prophet won't always lie, because in order to decieve you, he'll mix lies in with truth.

You look at what fruits they produce?



I was reading the article in the paper yesterday morning, personally, I just wish they'd done history a favor and chosen a
better looking woman to clone.. Am I wrong? Who's with me?

The one who looks like a witch is the scientist. I don't
think they have released pictures of the mother.

vasanth
12-30-2002, 12:10 AM
Real funny.. i cant stop laughing.. :D:D:D look where this is ending up.. A thread on religion rather than the new achievment.. In another 10 years cloning will be a fact of life.. No one will complain then.. When they invented the X-ray there was a huge hue and cry.. about ethics, seiing the inside of a person etc etc etc... But now look... Will anyone say.. "X-RAY.. it is unethical"...

So people here who understand the benifits of this new technology just keep quite.. let other make a fuss about it, shout, cry what ever.. In 10years they will fall in line...

Nick
12-30-2002, 02:42 AM
A thread on religion rather than the new achievment.. In another 10 years cloning will be a fact of life.. No one will complain then.. When they invented the X-ray there was a huge hue and cry.. about ethics, seiing the inside of a person etc etc etc... But now look... Will anyone say.. "X-RAY.. it is unethical"...

You have to be kidding. You think the American public will
let this happen on our soil? What about when they invented
the A-bomb and gas chambers. Your analogy doesn't make any
sense.



So people here who understand the benifits of this new technology just keep quite.. let other make a fuss about it, shout, cry what ever.. In 10years they will fall in line...

There is almost no benefits to reproductive cloning anyways and
if they perfect non-reproductive cloning there would be
no benefits. Correct me if I'm wrong, your argument is
that there are x amount people who believe it's "ok" so it must be ethical?