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Commander
12-05-2002, 05:18 PM
hi guys,
if you read the subject(which you all do), you know what i am asking for. i'm doing a project on it and wanted some of the controversies that sorrounded cloning from ppl around the world(where else can i get that but here :D). i remember there was a thread on the old board about it, but since the board is gone, the threads are gone with it. i'm not asking for you write down a lot of things, but it would be appreciated if you write down your opinion(for or against it and why).
thankx


and it would be really great if this thread, after a few posts, didn't turn into a thread for bashing america like the old cloning thread in the old board.

dP munky
12-05-2002, 05:29 PM
i heard that somewhere in italy they're working on a human clone, its supposed to be born in january or february..i cant remember? personally im against it, i dont see any good that can come from making a copy of someone? I have more to say but dont have time now

mithrandir
12-05-2002, 05:54 PM
I think that there needs to be a global scientific community consensus on the topic first, before we start making infinite copies of Kylie Minogue for each man (hey, now there's a thought!).

lightatdawn
12-05-2002, 06:00 PM
I think some people are scared of it mainly due to the fact that they know nothing about it. I believe some people envision giant glass vats filled with green ooze growing exact duplicates of existing people.

Fact is, all cloning is is a slightly assisted normal birth. ;) You're getting genetics from only one source, as opposed to the normal two. Everything else is pretty much the same.

There are many possible benefits to human cloning in specific. Its a wide area of research and the science involved covers a broad spectrum of possible uses.

dP munky
12-05-2002, 06:03 PM
lol....i see this post going in the same direction as the God one...

so what do you guys think advantages would be?

MethodMan
12-05-2002, 06:31 PM
Ive never really thought about it before, but I will during this post.

1. What I am most scared about is if some wacko scientist, decides to clone an army, it may start of by cloning some people to have some employees to run a little business, and then there are 200 people in his army.

2. There are some useful purposes, if you clone organs. A lot of people will definitely complain about this, since u are just creating humans for organs.

minesweeper
12-05-2002, 06:35 PM
Hmmm, the jury is still out with me.

I recognise the potential benefits of growing someone a new organ if the ones they have stop working, especially kids. Nice to think that we could give all children born with deformaties (sp?) a fighting chance in in this highly competitive world we have created.

But on the other hand it goes one step further than our current situation of keeping old people alive through medicine. I know the last 10 years of my gran's life were miserable. After the age of about 80, parts of her body begun to deteriorate (sp?) as is usual. But of course with modern medicine and our policies of keeping people alive at all costs she kept being sent for one operation after another or pumped with one drug after another. None of them increased her quality of life, just prolonged her death. It was heartbreaking to go and see this person who could literally do nothing by herself. Couldn't even get herself out of bed because her body was simply too frail. She finally died aged 93. I fear that cloning would just take it one step further and we would end up replacing one body part after another when at the end of the day, the body just wants to give up.

The other thing that concerns me is the development of cloning. I know that Dolly the sheep (the first cloned animal about 10 years ago) is having real problems because parts of her body are growing at disproportionate rates. Apparently she is in a lot of pain and suffering as a result. I think that is wrong, others may not care. But until cloning becomes an exact science, I sure as hell don't ever want to see a human being being told that they will forever be deformed or in permanent suffering because they are the result of an experiment that went wrong!!

Shadow12345
12-05-2002, 07:07 PM
minesweeper your post was way too long so I didn't read it. Anyway I think we should find a way to only clone organs and somehow keep them alive in a giant fridge, that way we don't have to clone entire people for spare parts.

dP munky
12-05-2002, 07:08 PM
human cloning or theraputic cloning....lets be specific

minesweeper
12-05-2002, 07:10 PM
>>minesweeper your post was way too long so I didn't read it.<<

Considering the seriousness of the subject and the average post length in the 'God' thread, I though my post was pretty concise. It wasn't THAT long anyway.

dP munky
12-05-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by minesweeper
But on the other hand it goes one step further than our current situation of keeping old people alive through medicine. I know the last 10 years of my gran's life were miserable. After the age of about 80, parts of her body begun to deteriorate (sp?) as is usual. But of course with modern medicine and our policies of keeping people alive at all costs she kept being sent for one operation after another or pumped with one drug after another. None of them increased her quality of life, just prolonged her death. It was heartbreaking to go and see this person who could literally do nothing by herself. Couldn't even get herself out of bed because her body was simply too frail. She finally died aged 93. I fear that cloning would just take it one step further and we would end up replacing one body part after another when at the end of the day, the body just wants to give up.


even if they could have cloned your grans genes to get her new organs, she's still be ceceptable to the same illness that caused her to become ill, not saying it wouldnt have helped but just some food for thought

minesweeper
12-05-2002, 07:21 PM
>>even if they could have cloned your grans genes to get her new organs, she's still be ceceptable to the same illness that caused her to become ill, not saying it wouldnt have helped but just some food for thought<<

She didn't have an illness. That's the point. Her body was just becoming too weak and frail to live. Normally when things like your kidneys start to malfunction, you just die. But cloning would mean we could just swap another one in. That doesn't however mean that everything is ok again. Once you get to her age everything deteriorates. Bones, joints, nervous system, circulatory system, everything. However they may not deteriorate enough to kill you for many years, only a malfunction of a major organ would do that.

civix
12-05-2002, 07:51 PM
Personally, I think its totally disguisting (did I spell that right?)
I mean, if they are gonna bring Elvis back or something, he aint gonna be the same, so why bother?

Eibro
12-05-2002, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by civix
Personally, I think its totally disguisting (did I spell that right?)
I mean, if they are gonna bring Elvis back or something, he aint gonna be the same, so why bother?
Haha, that made me think of this (http://cboard.cprogramming.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29955) thread. Besides the whole Elvis paradigm, what about cloning is "disgusting"?

Commander
12-05-2002, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by dP munky
personally im against it, i dont see any good that can come from making a copy of someone?let's say you genetically modified a sheep that produces a special protein in her milk that can help some babies get that protein if they can't produce it them selves. so now you have one sheep. if you clone that sheep to make more sheeps with the same genetic information, they would all produce that protein. this process is much effective way to produce those sheeps then to actually genetically modify every sheep you intend to create.


presonally, i'm pro for cloning as long as it stays ethical

dP munky
12-05-2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by civix
Personally, I think its totally disguisting (did I spell that right?)
I mean, if they are gonna bring Elvis back or something, he aint gonna be the same, so why bother?
id agree, the human cloning has no point, but im still on the fence w/the theraputic thing

Commander
12-05-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by dP munky
id agree, the human cloning has no point, but im still on the fence w/the theraputic thing id say more of cloning of an organism, but discusstion about therapeutic cloning has already started. and the more feedback i get the better!!:)

Eibro
12-05-2002, 08:16 PM
I'm all for marrying our cousins.
If we've learned anything from Jebidiah Springfield it's that this practice is perfectly ethical.

Nick
12-05-2002, 08:36 PM
lol....i see this post going in the same direction as the God one...

That's why I'm not getting into this one...

MethodMan
12-05-2002, 09:17 PM
even if they could have cloned your grans genes to get her new organs, she's still be ceceptable to the same illness that caused her to become ill, not saying it wouldnt have helped but just some food for thought

Why would you clone someone with cancer to help someone else out who is suffering the same illness?

That is not the point, you would clone organs from a healthy human being, and give it to another person in need of them.

I dont think this will be happening for a while, I sure hope it doesnt until all outcomes are known, potential side-effects etc etc.

Just like many things in life, there is good and bad things that come out of something, cloning would definitely help a lot of unhealthy people, but would kill others which are just used for organs, tissue, almost everything. Kill one to save many, well thats what people will complain about.

Sentaku senshi
12-05-2002, 09:43 PM
I am strongly against human cloning.

1. There is enough children in adoption agencies, who don't have familes they deserive a family more then creating a clone for a family that does not a have a child.

2 If you create a clone of a human it is a human. You have no right to use it as parts, just as you no right to use a natual born human as parts.

3. The idea of replacing someone is just stupid, and makes humans heartless cold beast when you treat someone as if it were an object.

vasanth
12-05-2002, 10:29 PM
I support cloning.. Many people are not realy aware what cloning is.. After seeing the movie"Star wars" with the clonal army many feel this is it.....

And many people dont know what it is and start balbering...

dP munky
12-05-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by MethodMan
Why would you clone someone with cancer to help someone else out who is suffering the same illness?

but when you transplant organs doesnt it have to be compatible, not saying you couldnt find a family member, but its like w/organ doaning you have to have a match!....right??

nick:That's why I'm not getting into this one...

why not, its just a debate, i was just kidding, it just seems like in the god post, people are going for blood!

lightatdawn
12-05-2002, 11:14 PM
>>you would clone organs from a healthy human being

Not necessary. Even in a cancerous organ, there are still healthy cells available from which a new and healthy organ could be grown.

>>If you create a clone of a human it is a human. You have no right to use it as parts

I think everybody agrees with you on this one. I pretty sure thats not in anybodies plan anywhere.

>>The idea of replacing someone is just stupid,

And also not possible. A "clone" is not a magical duplicate of its genetic parent. We're just talking about a normal human being with the same genetic structure of a single parent as opposed to the standard two. Different person. New person. Same genetics.

dP munky
12-05-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by lightatdawn
>>A "clone" is not a magical duplicate of its genetic parent. We're just talking about a normal human being with the same genetic structure of a single parent as opposed to the standard two. Different person. New person. Same genetics.
i dont understand? what would be the point cloning a person though? 1 of each of us is enough runnin around here! :)

novacain
12-05-2002, 11:58 PM
One of the real advantages of cloning is in research you know the organism is an exact copy of the others in the test group and so can eliminate alot of the variation between organisms.

As to human cloning. I think they should wait and get it right before they clone humans. There are still few issues ie the resoration excess AT bonds on the ends of your DNA that determine lifespan, else the clone will have your 'age' at birth.

As we are a high percentage of learned behavour, as opposed to inherited (geneticly programmed) behavour, it is impossible to create a copy of yourself.

Remember clones are babies, there is no acclerated growth AFAIK.

Organs for transplant are more easily made on other animals ( or on special mediums) or even regenerate the organs using stem cells, than growing a new clone.

adrianxw
12-06-2002, 03:11 AM
An imortality thought..

If you clone a human, (or anything else), then introduce the genetic malfunctions which prevent the growth of the brain, (there are several), you have a body, which is not a person, (no brain), that, given sufficient advances in technique, you could transplant the older persons brain into. No rejection worries/drugs. Imortality, just swap bodies every 30/40 years.

Patent applied for!

ammar
12-06-2002, 03:47 AM
I'm with researches about cloning, because it is not only about "making copys of humans!", but also it will develop new treatments for many deseases, since cloning is related to genetics, and will begin a new era in medicine.

And ofcourse there is that bad side of cloning, which I'm against.

dP munky
12-06-2002, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by novacain
One of the real advantages of cloning is in research you know the organism is an exact copy of the others in the test group and so can eliminate alot of the variation between organisms.and the advantage of doing that would be...?

face_master
12-06-2002, 04:07 AM
not for people. Its all well and good to bring back extinct speices, but not humans

Magos
12-06-2002, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by dP munky
i dont understand? what would be the point cloning a person though? 1 of each of us is enough runnin around here! :)
Cloning isn't exactly making a copy of one person. It's more like one egg twins. Same genetics, true. But as they grow they get more and more different.

Cloning could remove all genetical diseases (alzheimers and such) which is a good thing...
The problem could be in overpopulating the earth :).



An imortality thought..

If you clone a human, (or anything else), then introduce the genetic malfunctions which prevent the growth of the brain, (there are several), you have a body, which is not a person, (no brain), that, given sufficient advances in technique, you could transplant the older persons brain into. No rejection worries/drugs. Imortality, just swap bodies every 30/40 years.

Patent applied for!

Hmm, but the brain ages too. It won't last forever...

novacain
12-06-2002, 09:57 AM
adrianxw>>If you clone a human, (or anything else), then introduce the genetic malfunctions brain, (there are several), you have a body, which is not a person, (no brain), that, given sufficient advances in technique, you could transplant the older persons brain into. No rejection worries/drugs. Imortality, just swap bodies every 30/40 years.<<

Do we have stop at a frail human body?
Can I go the full upgrade to terminator style cyborg?
Or will I only be able to afford just a jar for my brain when my body runs out?

novacain>>One of the real advantages of cloning is in research you know the organism is an exact copy of the others in the test group and so can eliminate alot of the variation between organisms.<<

dP munky>>and the advantage of doing that would be...?

If you are testing chemicals for say, cancer causing agents. Having animals with exactly the same probability to develop cancer will allow more accurate testing or smaller test sizes (cheaper, better for the animals).

Cgawd
12-06-2002, 04:29 PM
i didnt even read this thread, but wouldnt it be cool to go up to some reaaaaallllyyy hot chick and take a peice of her hair, go to the store and make a clone of her, take it home and enjoy it :-D this would effectively put in a "natural selection" type evolution that would wipe out ugly people, but i dont see anything wrong with that.

Cshot
12-06-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Cgawd
i didnt even read this thread, but wouldnt it be cool to go up to some reaaaaallllyyy hot chick and take a peice of her hair, go to the store and make a clone of her, take it home and enjoy it :-D this would effectively put in a "natural selection" type evolution that would wipe out ugly people, but i dont see anything wrong with that.
That's only if you're not ugly, Cgawd.

Cgawd
12-06-2002, 04:40 PM
i dunno, some people say im not :rolleyes:

Shadow12345
12-06-2002, 04:49 PM
cloning has nothing to do with fixing old people. do you realize that humans are programmed to die. think about that, if we weren't programmed to die new healthy cells would be continually created from mitosis and our body structures would never fail. that means that somewhere in our dna is something that tells our bodies to stop or slow down generating healthy cells. if you cloned a person, that clon would get frail and weak at the same time as grandma, so you would be trying to put out fire with fire.

dP munky
12-06-2002, 05:03 PM
good point! very good point. Why fight death, of course non of us want to die but it happens. i understand there are many medical advances that could me made by cloning healthy tissue to help fight disease but human cloning just for the sake of cloning isnt worth the time and money

Eibro
12-06-2002, 05:32 PM
But is that an objective of cloning? To try and cheat/avert death?
There are so many practical/non-practical applications to cloning, methinks this topic needs to be a little more specific. What are we talking about? Cloning a perfect army? Cloning the perfect son? Cloning your deceased <insert person/relation>? Cloning for better crops? Cloning for spare parts? Cloning for stem cells? Cloning entire humans? etc etc etc. There are a million ways to look at this.



i didnt even read this thread, but wouldnt it be cool to go up to some reaaaaallllyyy hot chick and take a peice of her hair, go to the store and make a clone of her, take it home and enjoy it :-D this would effectively put in a "natural selection" type evolution that would wipe out ugly people, but i dont see anything wrong with that.
Where's the logic in that? You'd have to wait like 15 years for the newborn to mature... even then would she be willing? If so, then you'd be passing on your genetic material (even if you're ugly!)

Cgawd
12-06-2002, 05:41 PM
Where's the logic in that? You'd have to wait like 15 years for the newborn to mature... even then would she be willing? If so, then you'd be passing on your genetic material (even if you're ugly!)

well of course the technology would be available to grow clones fast or soemthing

and who said anything about having children with the clone? the pretty clones would run off and make it with other pretty clones, then there would be all these pretty clone children and then they will go and clone pretty people and they would have pretty half clone children.....evolution takes time, but it would happen

Eibro
12-06-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Cgawd
well of course the technology would be available to grow clones fast or soemthing

and who said anything about having children with the clone? the pretty clones would run off and make it with other pretty clones, then there would be all these pretty clone children and then they will go and clone pretty people and they would have pretty half clone children.....evolution takes time, but it would happen
Yes, and "ugly people" would be running off and reproducing with other "ugly people". The chance of "pretty clones" taking over the world is as probable in this age as any one race taking over simply because they reproduce more.

Oooookay, lets get back to talking about cloning... and not some futuristic sci-fi fantasy world filled with super-attractive clones and maturation chambers.

JoeSixpack
12-06-2002, 06:03 PM
Yes, and "ugly people" would be running off and reproducing with other "ugly people". The chance of "pretty clones" taking over the world is as probable in this age as any one race taking over simply because they reproduce more.

It is one of those SCIENTIFIC facts that beautiful people are intelligent (what king of the world would **** a bear?). These people have more mating opportunities than their ugly breathen. Therefore you are one of the most beautiful humans that have ever walked the planet. And if you're not beautiful enough then in time you'll meet the evolutionary equivalent of the chop.

Cgawd
12-06-2002, 06:26 PM
in time you'll meet the evolutionary equivalent of the chop.

thats an awsome quote...i like how you put it anyways.....but on the serious not, i only would believe in cloning for the pure factor of using it for organs only if your life was cut short of say the age 100, after u turn 100 you cant use ur clone for its goods, to keep it semi-natural, i mean if you are 20 and ridden with something like testicular cancer and its gonna kill you, then go to ur clone, chop off its orbs, replace urs....but if ur 92 and ur dying of liver cancer because youre a sloppy drunk, then theres no benefit of continuing ur life....to sum it up, if youre young then it would be good to use the spare parts, but if ur old and crusty, let nature take its course.

also i think if i was bill gates i would be putting money into cloning and genetic choice(or whatever they do to where u can pick if its a girl or boy or something) and i would make a master race of really smart programmers, then as bill gates, i would successfully be a complete monopoly.(yes it is now, but even more so)

lightatdawn
12-06-2002, 07:00 PM
>>The problem could be in overpopulating the earth

No more of a problem than it currently is. Theres no concievable way that we could create "cloned" humans at any kind of rate which would have any measurable impact on the population.

>>go to the store and make a clone of her, take it home and enjoy it

>>well of course the technology would be available to grow clones fast or soemthing

Could we have maybe one thread for immature people to babble in, and keep this thread for actual intelligent conversation? Dont mean to be offensive... Oh wait, yes I do. Either you're acting the idiot for attention, or you actually are one. Which is it?

>>Its all well and good to bring back extinct speices, but not humans

No its not good to bring back extinct species... Not necessarily. They're extinct for a reason remember. Mother Nature didnt want them in the picture. They may not fit with the current enviroment. It would be simular (though likely worse) to introducing a new species into an alien region.

>>if you cloned a person, that clon would get frail and weak at the same time as grandma

True. But there are cells available that have no lost DNA fragments. The so called 'sex' cells. Theres all the data you need to make a new human being. How do you think it works normally? ;)

>>using it for organs

Nobody is suggesting this. Where are you getting this stuff from? No wonder there are people against cloning if this kind of crap is in peoples heads.

Shadow12345
12-06-2002, 07:11 PM
excessive cloning = same genetic material replicated

evolution relies on ability for a species' genetic code to have unpredictable mutations, the mutations that provide some type of advantage and help that organism survive stay. so to tie my thoughts together cloning is kindof like anti evolution. im not saying it would kill off humans, just throwing out a new idea (or maybe it isn't new, i haven't read all the posts on this thread, they're too long).

Cgawd
12-06-2002, 07:23 PM
Oh wait, yes I do. Either you're acting the idiot for attention, or you actually are one. Which is it?

lighten up douche bag, ever heard of a joke? sheesh, where did those things called sense of humors go....maybe we should clone you one.:rolleyes:


Nobody is suggesting this. Where are you getting this stuff from? No wonder there are people against cloning if this kind of crap is in peoples heads.

what, are u high? this is one of the biggest points of cloning in the eyes of scientists....i mean, what else would we do with a clone? what would the point of a clone be?-are you so full of yourself you want another one of you so you can be full of both of yourselves?

edit>>stupid canadians

Eibro
12-06-2002, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Shadow12345
excessive cloning = same genetic material replicated

evolution relies on ability for a species' genetic code to have unpredictable mutations, the mutations that provide some type of advantage and help that organism survive stay. so to tie my thoughts together cloning is kindof like anti evolution. im not saying it would kill off humans, just throwing out a new idea (or maybe it isn't new, i haven't read all the posts on this thread, they're too long).

Yes but humans now live in a controlled environment, everyone recieves the same care... it's not survival of the fittest. Everyone passes on their genes (well, most do anyway) even those who wouldn't normally survive past birth. If anything, we're already "opressing" the natural course of evolution; "bad" genes have/will be passed on, ad infinitum.

I'm all for cloning. If anything I think cloning the best of the best would make the human race stronger. You're still retain your individuality when you're a clone... like someone said; you recieve all your genetic material from one person instead of two.

Edit:: Some people don't seem to get it. A clone is ONLY an exact copy of genetic material... you could grow up to be a completly different person than your clone if faced with different situations.

Commander
12-06-2002, 08:42 PM
>>stupid canadians

if canadians are stupid, and we are smarter then you, that what does that make you?

any way, back to the inportant discussion now. The word clonning has a lot of bad meaning to some ppl because the peple they listen to for what to believe is filling their head with ****. They are probably saying that cloning is bad because god doesn't like it because it's playing god because your making life out of nowhere in a dish in a lab. these ppl who say these kinds of crap have absolutely no scientific knowledge about reproduction. As long as there are idiots in high places where ppl listen to them, the myths about cloning will never go away. Just like the myths about bacteria about how they are all bad and you should you very powerful antibacterial soap to kill em all. And when these idiots are saying these crap to you, they make it look like they know everything there is to know and are all correct and the rest of the world is wrong.


these dumbasses make me so mad :mad:

lightatdawn
12-06-2002, 09:23 PM
>>lighten up douche bag, ever heard of a joke? sheesh, where did those things called sense of humors go

It is difficult to remove the 'humour' from the serious. You have made points in earnest that appear just a ridiculous as the ones you made in jest. It doesnt help that your grammar is confusing.

>>stupid canadians

Thats the immaturity I spoke of showing itself again.

>>this is one of the biggest points of cloning in the eyes of scientists

You're going to have to supply links then. I havent seen any evidence of anything credible moving in this direction. All I've heard are peoples baseless fears that this could happen.


excessive cloning = same genetic material replicated

evolution relies on ability for a species' genetic code to have unpredictable mutations, the mutations that provide some type of advantage and help that organism survive stay. so to tie my thoughts together cloning is kindof like anti evolution.

You're right. Using cloning as a method of reproduction would be a seriously flawed move. Its also highly unlikely as it is counter-productive, not to mention insanely expensive/involved. But theres no reason to think that things would ever head in that direction.

And to clear things up for some of the obviously confused: A clone is a normal human. You're going through the same process every other human being has, minus the sex. Bummer, eh? Theres no bubbling vats of magic-goo growing twisted mutant humans. We havent been very sucessful (not aware of any attempts actually), to replicate the womb.

>>If anything I think cloning the best of the best would make the human race stronger.

I cant see cloning replacing "current methods" ;). I see no reason why anyone would even consider this. I cant particularly see cloning in and of itself, being beneficial to the species directly, but I see genetic manipulation to be a very promising field. The altering/(creation!) of DNA is an oft misunderstood and underappreciated field by the uneducated public. We're looking at breakthroughs in quality of life and a higher understanding of what makes us tick.

Commander
12-06-2002, 10:08 PM
>>If anything I think cloning the best of the best would make the human race stronger.

even if you clone bruce lee, it's not like that the guy will be born with his abilities...he has to learn just like anyother kid...so anyone can have lee's abilities with the proper stuff...

Sentaku senshi
12-06-2002, 11:35 PM
but I see genetic manipulation to be a very promising field. The altering/(creation!) of DNA is an oft misunderstood and underappreciated field by the uneducated public. We're looking at breakthroughs in quality of life and a higher understanding of what makes us tick.


A race of blue eyed , blond hair perfect humans. When I was born I spent a year in the hospital as a result of some problem I can't remember the name of. Looking back at it I would not have wanted some scientist to prevent me from having to had gone to the hospital for such a long period.