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xds4lx
12-02-2002, 09:35 PM
I have to give a speech on it tomorow and I really like the idea (http://www.fairtax.org/) just wondering what everyone else thinks about it. I for one would like to keep my whole pay check :-) and since i dont spend too much money in stores i can get by the 23% tax on new items. And please people read up on it before posting anything.

bob20
12-02-2002, 09:50 PM
I for one think that the fair tax is a great idea. The more that someone comsumes, the more they pay. It's so simple, yet so genius. It is a way to tax everyone fairly, in my opinion. I think that this is something that definetly should be implemented.

novacain
12-03-2002, 12:43 AM
We in Australia have had a Goods and Services tax since 2000 called a GST.

10% on top of the cost.

Income tax is still high, I pay over 30% in tax overall after deductions. (taxed 58% on income over Au$50,000)

A few questions

Essential items like food, medicine ect, is it taxed? If not what about meals in restaraunts ect?

Then there is the multiple hits from the tax.
Take a beer in a bar (close to all Aussies hearts).

Here it is hit with duty (a tax on the alcohol content) then it must be delivered (so tax on the drivers service and on the truck and on the petrol ect) then it must be served (more tax) and finally the actual beer has GST.

Where do you apply the tax?
Who pays to work it out?
Do you trust the stores not to rort the system? (ie charge too much and keep the rest)
Will items get tax added more than once? (ie overall increase of more than the proposed 23%)
If so what value is used to calculate the tax added? (original wholesale or the current value)

Also if you earn income in the US (say thru the 'net) but live in another country does that mean you pay no tax?


All that will happen (as did here) is that those with accountants will buy through their compaies and write off as a tax excempt and those without accountants will pay more.

Here things like whitegoods (that you buy once every 5 -10 years) dropped in price but stuff you use all the time like fast food, beer and all services went up.

I stopped running my own bussiness as I had to become a tax collector and spent one full day a month trying to work out the new tax.

no-one
12-03-2002, 12:55 AM
and people with large families are screwed.

buisness would have to be exempt as well as hospitals nusring homes and everything else.

general politics at work, sound beautiful on paper, in reality it is hell. especially for those not considered.

Flat tax is the only fair tax. END OF STORY. Anything else is socialism.

>Income tax is still high, I pay over 30% in tax overall after deductions. (taxed 58% on income over Au$50,000)

welcome to government controlled by greedy politicians.

do they waste and LOSE as mush of it as they do in America?

salvelinus
12-03-2002, 06:36 AM
You'd have to exempt some things for poverty reasons. Take a single mom, three kids, $15k income. She's gotta pay 23% on food, clothes, medicine, etc? That's not going to work.

Sentaku senshi
12-03-2002, 08:07 AM
>Essential items like food, medicine ect, is it taxed? If not what about meals in restaraunts ect?<

In PA there is a 6.5% sales tax on non-essential items. Meals in restaraunts are considered non-essential, also wedding dresses, and probley suits are not considered essential. Some things vary on where you buy them, such as if it's at a grocery store, or a gas station.

>Do you trust the stores not to rort the system? (ie charge too much and keep the rest)<

Well PA alreay has a sales tax (and income tax). Anyways the tax would have to be recored on the recpet and if mutlible people have recipts that show a higher tax then that store would most likly face punishment.

>If so what value is used to calculate the tax added? (original wholesale or the current value)<

Most likly the current value.

>I stopped running my own bussiness as I had to become a tax collector and spent one full day a month trying to work out the new tax<

Did you have employes? A sales tax is part of a few states already though some even collect tax on essential items *cough*NY*cough*.

xds4lx
12-03-2002, 09:03 AM
If you read all their info you would of seen that not all items will be taxed at 23%. And even if they are so what? The hidden taxes on items will be gone thus lowering them 20-30% since businesses wont have to pay taxes on raw materials to produce goods anymore, and you only have to pay the 23% on new items, it says anything used would be untaxed.

OneStiffRod
12-03-2002, 01:09 PM
I think it's a novel and a good idea, alot better than a FLAT tax, but some serious drawbacks could there be(yoda, need a yoda emoticon). When you add a sales tax on top of every good you are really directly affecting the price of goods and could cause grand inflation and our products would really be hurt competitively around the globe. Think that here in Cali they charge 8.5% sales tax and on top of that they would charge an extra 15 - 23%, on a $35 item you would pay $11.03 just in tax so the total would be $46.03. On something like a $25k car the tax would be nearly $8K making it $32,875, let's also add the loan I have to take out to pay for the car - I just paid $50+K for a $25K car. When you increase the price of goods you will naturally sell less and thusly make less.

Now that we've kinda hashed it out I don't think it's a good idea unless we CAP the tax and get rid of any and all sales tax by states. I'm sure the supporters of this would like to also create a sales tax for the internet. I think that a Graduated income tax is much better, unless they can improve on this idea.
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posted by no-one
Flat tax is the only fair tax. END OF STORY. Anything else is socialism.

FLAT tax isn't fair b/c it's too fair, life is not fair and when we all pay 33% tax on our income those with lower income will struggle b/c they can only just afford the bare essentials. Someone who makes 10,000 will be left with 6,600 with a 33% FLAT tax while someone who makes 40,000 is left with 26,400. Obviously someone who makes more will be left with more but the person who makes much less barely has enough to live on when you figure that you pay the same at the GAS pump, at the Super Market, and other living expenditures - in life we pay certain amounts and the price is not based on whether we are rich or poor.

That's why the graduated income tax system is one of the best.
0% - 10% - 15% - 25% - 33% This is how I think it should look with the TOP being 1/3 of what you make goes to the Govt. and that's as fair as it gets.

civix
12-03-2002, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Sentaku senshi
>Essential items like food, medicine ect, is it taxed? If not what about meals in restaraunts ect?<

In PA there is a 6.5% sales tax on non-essential items. Meals in restaraunts are considered non-essential, also wedding dresses, and probley suits are not considered essential. Some things vary on where you buy them, such as if it's at a grocery store, or a gas station.

>Do you trust the stores not to rort the system? (ie charge too much and keep the rest)<

Well PA alreay has a sales tax (and income tax). Anyways the tax would have to be recored on the recpet and if mutlible people have recipts that show a higher tax then that store would most likly face punishment.

>If so what value is used to calculate the tax added? (original wholesale or the current value)<

Most likly the current value.

>I stopped running my own bussiness as I had to become a tax collector and spent one full day a month trying to work out the new tax<

Did you have employes? A sales tax is part of a few states already though some even collect tax on essential items *cough*NY*cough*.

I, for one DO NOT think sales tax is fair...in Ohio we have a 6% sales tax on everything non-consumable (from what my parents tell me)

Think, in CA, i'm pretty sure that the sales tax is astronomical.

If anyone hasnt noticed, there is not sales tax on items bought over the net, unless you are buying from a distributor in your state.
The government wants to change that.

If these United States want a sales tax, it should be nationwide.
*fireworks explode in background*

I'm petitioning.

WHO'S WITH ME?!

golfinguy4
12-03-2002, 04:46 PM
MA has 5% sales tax on all non-essential items. NH doesn't have a sales tax. No income tax either in NH, only property tax.

I find flat taxes morally wrong. Can you tell me that you think a family barely struggling to provide themselves meals should pay the same as Bill Gates?

valar_king
12-03-2002, 04:53 PM
I live on an Air Force Base, so no sales tax for me!
Mwahahaha!

minesweeper
12-03-2002, 05:04 PM
I keep reading fidures of 5 % or there abouts for sales tax. Over here in England we have an equivalent called VAT (value added tax), only I don't see the value of it, it's 17.5 %!!!!!!!!! And that's on top of 25% (I think) minimum rate of tax on your income, rising to 50% for the David Beckhams of this world.

Oh well, we do get free (although quite pathetic) health care.

dP munky
12-03-2002, 06:06 PM
wow, i dont get this at all?....taxing based on income?? would that replace income tax? i mean, they make it sound like it does, but what about sales tax then???

no-one
12-03-2002, 07:24 PM
>That's why the graduated income tax system is one of the best.
0% - 10% - 15% - 25% - 33% This is how I think it should look with the TOP being 1/3 of what you make goes to the Govt. and that's as fair as it gets.

reguarless its still sociaism,

just because i make more does not mean i should pay more, BECAUSE I ALREADY AM PAYING MORE!

hence its an even percentage of the income of all i make more i already pay more no need to graduate it.

Someone who makes 10,000 will be left with 6,600

Someone who makes 40,000 is left with 26,400.

the guy making 40,000 if already paying twice what the guy making 10000 is.

>Obviously someone who makes more will be left with more but the person who makes much less barely has enough to live on

so we should tax everybody in a graduated way so everyone only makes 6,600????


>I find flat taxes morally wrong. Can you tell me that you think a family barely struggling to provide themselves meals should pay the same as Bill Gates?

they wont be!!!! they will pay a few thousand taxes he will pay a thousand times more already with a flat tax,

see above!

POINT AT HAND!!!

just because he makes a million a year doesn mean he should pay 90% of because he can live well off of a hundred thousand, and some guy is struggling with 10000, the other worked for his million same as the guy making 10000, maybe even harder than he does.


hence WE LIVE IN A CAPITALIST SOCIOTY! not a socialist one, you wanna live like a socialist move to canada.

golfinguy4
12-03-2002, 09:24 PM
Whatever, it has more to do with your personal beliefs. I strongly believe in helping others in need. Money is needed to accomplish this. This money, I believe, should come from the higher salary ranges. If I made a million bucks a year, I would gladly pay some of it in taxes to help others (as long as it wasn't used corruptly). If not, I probably would be donating it to charities anyway.

novacain
12-03-2002, 09:27 PM
Beware of what is termed 'socialising the cost'.

ie this is where bussiness sacks local workers and gives their jobs to cheaper overseas workers.

The company pays tax offshore and lowers its production costs so it makes more profit.

Trouble is WE pay the unemployment benifits thru higher taxes, WE get lower wages as there are more people looking for work.

Or if these new poor resort to crime or drugs the cost of fixing the problems is paid for by?


Novacain>Do you trust the stores not to rort the system? (ie charge too much and keep the rest)<

Sentaku senshi>Well PA alreay has a sales tax (and income tax). Anyways the tax would have to be recored on the recpet and if mutlible people have recipts that show a higher tax then that store would most likly face punishment.<

Just like our company directors who used over Au$10 million in company funds to buy more shares and prop up the price (as they owned a lot of shares as well so they were protecting thier investment)

They face a Au$22k fine.

See what I mean?

Sentaku senshi
12-03-2002, 09:35 PM
True, but if a company has workers and those workers pay an income tax that is automaticly deducted the company could decut more then the employes should pay and keep that money.

So no mater where the taxes come from there is room for coruption, and as for the case with the fine amount something is horibly wrong with how they decided it.

OneStiffRod
12-03-2002, 11:50 PM
posted by no-one
>>so we should tax everybody in a graduated way so everyone only makes 6,600????

I don't know where you got that idea from my post but that is not at all the point I was making. The point is that I too thought that the FLAT tax was a good idea until I saw how it would work, why would you tax someone making 10K the same as someone who made 40K??? You would only leave the person making 10K with 6,600 dollars and with the 'graduated' system the person making 10K would only pay 10% or maybe he wouldn't even be in the tax bracket. I think it's FAIR to CAP the graduated system, meaning the most you'll ever pay is 33% of your income which is 1/3 which is fairest of all - today in the US anyone who makes over 50k there TAX percentage is more like 45-49% more or less based on the property they own. Paying 33% is obviously much less then today's rate.

That should clarify.

adamviper
12-04-2002, 01:13 PM
wouldn't that be a tax on big ppl would that be a form of racism witch is BAD

Cruxus
12-04-2002, 02:06 PM
A 25% sales tax would price almost everything out of affordability for me. I am a high school student currently without a job, and I would not feel happy about paying $500 in sales tax on a $2,000 computer (yes, even if I had a job). People with low income jobs would be forced from enjoying "luxuries" like computers, cars, etc.

Such a high sales tax would likely do woeful things to our economy. Consumer spending, which is a powerful driving force of the economy, would show a marked decrease. The standard of living would decrease as new technology becomes less affordable to more people. Of course, the ultra rich would complain about having to pay so much more for their mansions and yachts, but the people who would really be hurting are the poor and the middle class.

Inflation would increase because of salary/wage increases, which heighten the cost of production. The end result is that the economy would probably find its way out but only after going through one enormous hassle.

fergus
12-04-2002, 07:24 PM
I'm for a flat tax rate...A LOW flat tax rate. Why should a hard working man who strikes it rich pay a higher percentage of his wealth than a lazy bum, or, for that matter, a hard working man who doesn't strike it rich? Sure, you can whine about rich scum, and they do exist, but the fact is that rich people are not any more immoral than the rest of us.

ygfperson
12-04-2002, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by fergus
I'm for a flat tax rate...A LOW flat tax rate. Why should a hard working man who strikes it rich pay a higher percentage of his wealth than a lazy bum, or, for that matter, a hard working man who doesn't strike it rich? Sure, you can whine about rich scum, and they do exist, but the fact is that rich people are not any more immoral than the rest of us.
i agree, they're not more immoral (in most cases). but morality has little to do with this. if we don't cut government (and military) spending, the money's going to have to come from somewhere. i say, let the rich shoulder a greater percentage of the cost. they can afford it better than middle class and lower class people.