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DavidP
10-02-2002, 05:08 PM
I found this article on a website, read it and then lets discuss what we think of it:

http://www.nbhackers.com/articles/art5.html

So what do y'all think of it?

I dun really know...it seems kind of far fetched. If every piece of software had to be certified, you couldnt even compile a simple "Hello, World!" program without paying...

TechWins
10-02-2002, 05:10 PM
This was already discussed a while back.:)

DavidP
10-02-2002, 05:13 PM
really? i never saw...

RoD
10-02-2002, 05:34 PM
i'll keep my old technology, thank you.

edbowen
10-02-2002, 07:43 PM
I work on defense contracts and this would not be allowed on any military or government system for security reasons. And I do believe that the US Government is MS largest customer.

novacain
10-02-2002, 08:10 PM
MS is experimenting with their subscriptions rather than letting users purchase the software. So far three major companies / government agencies in Australia / New Zeland have moved to *nix systems. Telstra, MS's largest cusomer in the southern hemisphere is also looking at moving into Sun's Office stuff and Linux OS's.

Steve B is making his first visit to Australia ever to try and convince Telstra and others not to change.

I think this will cause MS to reconsider this Pallidium rubbish as well as their software subscriptions, at least to large corporations. Of course MS might find it would make more profit (even if all these ligit customers leave) if it can force the home user to buy new MS beta releases rather than stealing them.

I do not think it will stop them developing Pallidium in the hope of more government regulation / terrorist hysteria.

face_master
10-02-2002, 08:37 PM
At the moment, MS' software is hindering profits by company's. This new system software would make that even more prominent. There would be no real advantage to change to this new thing, it would make people change to Mac OS and *NIX.

RoD
10-03-2002, 12:46 PM
maybe i should reconsider my platform i use and program for....

I don't know, windows or linux , always a tough call for those of us who only know windows....

valar_king
10-03-2002, 01:28 PM
that article, while it may not be total BS, because the guy seems to believe its coming out, looks really untrue. if microsoft's in trouble now, they'll be shut down if this is released. come on.:rolleyes: ;)

FillYourBrain
10-03-2002, 02:15 PM
after looking at multiple sources, it doesn't look as bad as some gloom and doom types are making it out to be. There are FAQ's out there that debunk a lot of what the articles are saying. I don't have the desire to post links cause I'm too lazy to go back and find them but all I did was search google with: Palladium FAQ

Fountain
10-03-2002, 04:16 PM
hehe this is still funny. The name may be legit, but the rest is not. COME on think about it. I shall not go into the reasons why people dont like M/s..even though he does admit that some products are good.

There are laws against this sort of thing, and if it was legal the voters(pc users) would vote in a new president (any1 who would ban it).

Intel and AMD dont have a lot to say about it from what I can find, and thats weird as they will be making new chips for every1 in the world. Share price shouldve rocketed up..

It hasn't by the way :rolleyes:

Aran
10-03-2002, 08:00 PM
voting in a new president doesn't do jack. We'd have to vote in a completely different congress, and that's a tough proposition to say the least.

novacain
10-03-2002, 09:37 PM
If the multi nationals want it, are willing to pay the politicans 'campaign funds' to get it, will it happen?

Would it make MS and the hardware manufactures money while saving companies IT security costs?

Do you think MS software is so insecure because they can't fix it or because they have another motive for not fixing it quickly? (or is it just that most virus engineers hate MS?)

Captain
10-04-2002, 10:55 AM
I'm going to just stay with Linux no matter what. I'm not going to pay another penny to Microsoft. It's disgusting how they take advantage of people who don't know about computers.

SBob
10-04-2002, 01:03 PM
look, Palladium is not a joke, its real and its part of the master plan. this is not a joking conspiracy theory its real and happening.

>At the moment, MS' software is hindering profits by company's. This new system software would make that even more prominent.

why do you think they involve many many other companies? why involve hardware vendors?

their no longer singly liable, and it adds support and momentum and takes away conspiracy targeting from the masses who know nothing,
DRM is bull****, its just and excuse for the RIAA, MPAA, ect... to permanently stomp out all internet competition, which is what they are so afraid of, don't be fooled they couldn't give a **** less about piracy.

>There would be no real advantage to change to this new thing, it would make people change to Mac OS and *NIX.

MS runs 90% of computers, Linux, and Mac OS will either be compatible or not be allowed to access 90% of web content!

nobody's gonna put up two servers, once for paladium and one for conspiracy freaks!

BTW: if im not mistaken Apple has already told them to f--- off. HORRAYZ FOR APPLE!

>after looking at multiple sources, it doesn't look as bad as some gloom and doom types are making it out to be.

ok... in the beginning no, but whats to stop them after its implemented?

this is not an all at once thing its a slow graduation of "New Features"

>There are FAQ's out there that debunk a lot of what the articles are saying.

im sure they do.

>
Intel and AMD dont have a lot to say about it from what I can find, and thats weird as they will be making new chips for every1 in the world. Share price shouldve rocketed up..
<

whose chips do you use? if they make palladium chips, the masses will use them, also i don't think they will restrict new companies from jumping in.

>If the multi nationals want it, are willing to pay the politicans 'campaign funds' to get it, will it happen?

the US is the testing ground, if it works here, the rest of the world will miraculoulsy grow balls and say no, or they will... you know what.

and judging by the current US Congress(who know absolutly nothing about computing hence the **** hole we already have) there will be little opposition.

>Do you think MS software is so insecure because they can't fix it or because they have another motive for not fixing it quickly?

thats a good question.

>or is it just that most virus engineers hate MS?

sheer target volume. thats all it comes down to.

RoD
10-04-2002, 01:51 PM
Its BS. Well at least as far as my GF is concerned, he said in his position he would know about this if it was true, he could be wrong but like fyb said, it looks more and more like a joke.

Sentaku senshi
10-04-2002, 06:37 PM
>MS runs 90% of computers, Linux, and Mac OS will either be compatible or not be allowed to access 90% of web content!

nobody's gonna put up two servers, once for paladium and one for conspiracy freaks!<

ahh but you forget that most web servers run on linux, and not windows. Apache is the number one web server in the world, and the windows port of it is not as good as the one on linux.

SBob
10-04-2002, 08:15 PM
>
ahh but you forget that most web servers run on linux, and not windows. Apache is the number one web server in the world, and the windows port of it is not as good as the one on linux.
<

your missing the point.

90% of computers that access that server run Windows, servers must be (palladium) compatible in order for the masses ( windows users ) to access, it doesn't mean anything what you use to run it, it must be (palladium) compatible to allow the masses to access it! the only person to get screwed is you for using non palladium stuff.

at best we can hope for a segregation of the internet, those who are and those who arn't.

if they indeed do this its gonna suck ass.

RoD
10-04-2002, 08:26 PM
i wouldn't worry bout it.

Fountain
10-05-2002, 04:15 PM
guess its not a question of worrying about it, its about finding more information. It is, I have to say, quite interesting though.

red_baron
10-05-2002, 04:49 PM
i have a feelin that SBob is the person who wrote the article :D

Captain
10-06-2002, 02:32 PM
All I know is that I will never bow down to Microsoft. I swear on my life that I will never use Palladium. I totally refuse to have anything to do with it. I will not support a monopoly, and I will see it fall down. Evil can not win.

Fountain
10-06-2002, 05:31 PM
I always have to say the same stuff!

What is the prob with M/s anyway.

(yes we have done it a million times)

Captain! What god damn MONOPOLY is this?


If YOU wrote a decent O/S you may sell it to 50 million users, and then would you have a monopoly? Course frigging not!

Take 5 from each sale etc. Soon you would be very rich.

The stuff about Netscape and IE, well yes that could've been handled better. Still wasnt a monopoly.

OK I am struggling-somebody tell me why M/s has a MONOPOLY going on.


The real point-M/s make some good stuff and some ****e stuff.

Personally-my XP is the tops, and office has never failed.

IE a bit poor-blah blah

The Palladium stuff is in my previous posts. If it is true I would not change my stance-just buy legitamate copies of stuff!

But, complete control? (thread) I am not so sure.


And WHY hasnt Intel and AMD share price soared? I read the ANTI M/S post from earlier who tried to explain this point, but it was very poor.

RoD
10-06-2002, 05:36 PM
Its not a monopoly and this whole thread is BS.

SBob
10-06-2002, 06:42 PM
>i have a feelin that SBob is the person who wrote the article

no, im just someone who is informed and is scared ****less by the fact that more and more things are beginning to look like the corperate hell hole described by so many, read 1984. and the masses don't see it, and there is jack **** i can do except try and wake a few up, before its to late, as it very well may be.

>And WHY hasnt Intel and AMD share price soared?

what the hell are you talking about! WHY WOULD THEY HAVE?!! palladium is not in developement yet! ITS A BIT EARLY STILL!



maybe you all should check out why the 9 states were sueing MS, then pull your head out of your ass and take a look around you.

where on a corperate butt hole, and sinking deeper in.

look it up there are so many reasons those slimeballs, and the RIAA, MPAA, and Disney, ect ect... with them deserve to choke its not funny, actually its scary they have gotten away with the **** they've done so far.

and dont freaking ask me to find it for you or post a link, if i did you wouldn't read you just say its BS and learn nothing for yourselves.

the fact is you automatically ignore anything Anti-MS because you believe its just gonna be "i hate MS because bill is rich", as the MS fanboys have tried to say is the only reason people don't like them. now that's BS.

and that bull**** is getting old, MS is good!! we're all just jealous!!!

you go...

the simple truth is you don't believe MS is a monoply because you don't care! your happy, and it isn't affecting you(YET!!) so it doesn't matter enough to find out. thats fine stay ignorant thats just what they(companies in general) want, just don't defend them when you havn't got a clue.

face_master
10-06-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by SBob
>i have a feelin that SBob is the person who wrote the article

no, im just someone who is informed and is scared ****less by the fact that more and more things are beginning to look like the corperate hell hole described by so many, read 1984. and the masses don't see it, and there is jack **** i can do except try and wake a few up, before its to late, as it very well may be.

>And WHY hasnt Intel and AMD share price soared?

what the hell are you talking about! WHY WOULD THEY HAVE?!! palladium is not in developement yet! ITS A BIT EARLY STILL!



maybe you all should check out why the 9 states were sueing MS, then pull your head out of your ass and take a look around you.

where on a corperate butt hole, and sinking deeper in.

look it up there are so many reasons those slimeballs, and the RIAA, MPAA, and Disney, ect ect... with them deserve to choke its not funny, actually its scary they have gotten away with the **** they've done so far.

and dont freaking ask me to find it for you or post a link, if i did you wouldn't read you just say its BS and learn nothing for yourselves.

the fact is you automatically ignore anything Anti-MS because you believe its just gonna be "i hate MS because bill is rich", as the MS fanboys have tried to say is the only reason people don't like them. now that's BS.

and that bull**** is getting old, MS is good!! we're all just jealous!!!

you go...

the simple truth is you don't believe MS is a monoply because you don't care! your happy, and it isn't affecting you(YET!!) so it doesn't matter enough to find out. thats fine stay ignorant thats just what they(companies in general) want, just don't defend them when you havn't got a clue. Money is power and there's nothing we can do about it untill we stop their flow of money (ie. by not buying that MS OS that is predicted, and buying Linux or something) and then they're screwed. Problem solved :)

red_baron
10-06-2002, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by face_master
Money is power and there's nothing we can do about it untill we stop their flow of money (ie. by not buying that MS OS that is predicted, and buying Linux or something) and then they're screwed. Problem solved :)

umm how do u use linux? :D

face_master
10-06-2002, 07:27 PM
I can't use it either atm, but I meant find an alternate OS. I'm sure you're gonna have to learn how to use MS' new OS anyway so there's no way around it.

edbowen
10-06-2002, 07:41 PM
I just finished looking at MS site on Palladium. My perception is that MS is trying to implement something similar to Trusted Solaris. If you look through MS own documentation (when they still shipped it with the software) you will see a pattern of MS always trying to catch up to UNIX capabilities. We are just seeing another example of this. I would predict that prior MS deploying Palladium, Sun releases a new version of Trusted Solaris that does more than Palladium, is compatable with Palladium and will not require a hardware upgrade.

Captain
10-07-2002, 01:00 AM
The majority of computer users and computer programers have never known anything other than Microsoft. Those individuals are not capable of empathy toward something outside of their experience. If you want to understand my point of view than download and install Mandrake 9.0. Come back here and than have an intelligent opinion on this subject.

RoD
10-07-2002, 04:01 AM
The majority of computer users and computer programers have never known anything other than Microsoft. Those individuals are not capable of empathy toward something outside of their experience. If you want to understand my point of view than download and install Mandrake 9.0. Come back here and than have an intelligent opinion on this subject.

i have used SEVERAL non MS operating systems man. Seeing as how my g/f, a literal windows programmer, tells me this is bs and aint going to happen, i feel that my opinion is not only intelligent, but far more likely then any of the bs this thread is spilling.

Microsoft wouldn't do it, they can't do it, and they're NOT doing it.

Captain
10-07-2002, 07:31 AM
Why is Palladium posted all over the Microsoft website?

http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/features/2002/jul02/0724palladiumwp.asp

or

http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/Features/2002/Jul02/07-01palladium.asp

It looks to me that Microsoft users have no choice but to adopt this technology.

vasanth
10-07-2002, 07:42 AM
Well it looks like MS wants to own the net.. and it wants to own everything related to computers.... Well i am sure if this happened.. add on chips will be released which can be soldered to the motherboard to overcome the palladium issue.. See what happened to Xbox ant piracy feature.. A chip soldered on it... the xbox could even run linux...:):)

Captain
10-07-2002, 08:03 AM
Microsoft has big a lot of money. It is able to force the hardware manufacturer to add this hardware to their line of microprocessors. Unfortunately every other corporation is forced to adopt Microsoft specific hardware. It is very sad, but not at all surprising to individuals who are educated.

Linux will have to do two things. They will have to adopt Palladium into their own system, and they will also have to use more non-intel based hardware architectures (a good thing in the long run).

The plan of Microsoft is to stifle competition because it requires money power in order to purchase licenses to play DVD movies and use other third party tools. They don't want Linux users to have this functionality. The sad thing is that they are doing this under the guise that it is good for the general public, however the reality is that it is good only for a few Oligarchies.

I am a supporter of the distributed computing model and I have faith in my own knowledge and ability to understand how systems are constructed. Eventually I can build my own, and above all I would like to see open standards. This is something that is actually needed by the computer industry because it would serve more than just one single corporation. I'm very please that the technology industry is not performing well. This provides an environment for improved products and services. You can throw money around and struggle to hold onto a monopoly, however you can not stifle knowledge and freedom, forever.

I already told you guys how Microsoft is a monopoly. They were the first to capitalize on the home market for PC's. Now they are using their economic power to keep competitors out of the industry. The only way into the industry is to offer a free operating system. The biggest problem with Linux is that it is too complex. It will take some time to educate the public how to use it. Most of the people over 35 years old will never be computer literate enough to use a system like Linux. It is a better system though, it's better technology. We'll be seeing a lot more of it in the future.

RoD
10-07-2002, 11:31 AM
I didn't say it wans't being done, i'm saying it won't give them complete control, if u actually read the article under the first link u will notice this:


"Palladium" is an opt-in system.

"Palladium" is entirely an opt-in solution; systems will ship with the "Palladium" hardware and software features turned off. The user of the system can choose to simply stay with this default setting, leaving all "Palladium"-related capabilities (hardware and software) disabled.

Turning "Palladium" completely off includes turning it off in hardware, which prevents any software from turning it back on. Users have the ultimate control over their systems and their information; "Palladium" does not entail any global requirements.

SBob
10-07-2002, 12:43 PM
This is how it always starts.

default off,
but what they fail to mention is that if its off your out of the loop(can't access any other palladium system(ie. off the net))! you can't be authenticated, because your a security risk.

how long do you think that will last? 'we can't have all these "Security Risks" running around reaking havoc!! even if they don't know their doing it!'

as i said its a gradual step by step process! look at how governments gain control of citizens! slowly step by step, and all in the name of security.

>Seeing as how my g/f, a literal windows programmer

she literally codes on the OS?!
honestly, im impressed.

but, i doubt the higher ups tell them anything more than they tell us or absolutly have to. What i see is what i see, they've made the announcements, logical consequences have been drawn.

CORPORATIONS ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS. Corperations bow solely to the will of the share holders, who's only interest is MONEY, the less choice you have, the more money/power they have, and the same applies to Government. The world revolves with singly driven purpose. Truth is the only obstacle.

nobody wants to believe it, but then no one can deny it.

what i say sometimes scares me! simply because it is the truth, and that i never thought to hear myself say such things, because when i heard others say them, i too thought they we're crazy.

RoD
10-07-2002, 12:54 PM
>Seeing as how my g/f, a literal windows programmer

she literally codes on the OS?!
honestly, im impressed.

but, i doubt the higher ups tell them anything more than they tell us or absolutly have to. What i see is what i see, they've made the announcements, logical consequences have been drawn.


i didn't mean girl friend, i mean grandfather. And yes hes one of the many who actually code the windows operating system. Usually he knows whats going on because, well they make what god bill wants come to life.

I'm not saying it will never be full-on, i'm saying theres a window for hardware manufacturers to develop the workarounds and maybe save 25% of the users.

Seeing as how MS is obviously taking over the computer industry, i think i'll stay with them for both my o/s and my programming, simply because i would rather have a wealthy and successful carreer then be a gorilla against microsoft.

SBob
10-07-2002, 01:11 PM
>i didn't mean girl friend, i mean grandfather.

sorry, my mistake.

>
i'm saying theres a window for hardware manufacturers to develop the workarounds and maybe save 25% of the users.
<

they have the capability, but will they use it? how sweet is the pot?

my estimation is that they will make exceptions in the beginning for Linux, Apples, and previous versions of Windows, and slowly try to phase them out completely or into using palladium.



finally, my sincerest hope is that they will not and i am wrong, and a raving lunatic, who has bought the jumbo size conspiracy bulloni, but unfortunatly i doubt that this is the case.

relfen
10-07-2002, 02:09 PM
This is what I see happening. MS ships Palladium and the chip makers AMD and Intel ship their processors that support Palladium. People who are not educated on DRM/Palladium go out and buy that fantastic speedy machine they have been wanting. It's turned off by default. MS gives you a little splash screen advertising Palladium is available and tells you why you should turn it on. Uneducated grandma says "Wow, securing my computer...that sounds like a wonderful idea." Then you have the people who decide not to. But you know what happens there? MS ships their next version of DirectX. Game makers decide they are going to develop with it. But low and behold...you have to run in the secure environment forced by the API. So Unreal Tournament 2099 comes out and you have to have Palladium enabled to play it. Think that's far fetched? Think again. Creative labs already announced DRM support in their hardware. Toshiba and Sony are supporting it. Intel and AMD already announced that future processors will ship with Palladium support.

It's scary. Longhorn(the next OS which will possibly have Palladium...) isn't due out till around 2004/2005 but the amount of companies signing on already to get involved is truly scary.

I've worked for MS for the last 2 years and I think the company has a lot of good and bad(can you say WinME?) products. But when the DRM stuff starts going out the door(Media Player 9 and Media Center actually already have it...) I think I will jump ship. If people want DRM to die then they are going to have to refuse to support it. But that's going to be a tough fight. Hopefully one that won't be lost.


My 2 cents. Sorry for the rambling.

RoD
10-07-2002, 02:09 PM
I wish my girl was a MS windows programmer, i'd make her tell me how to kill all its problems or no sex...

Captain
10-07-2002, 02:14 PM
I'm afraid that there is no such thing as a Microsoft Windows programmer. It just about learning how to use their tools.

FillYourBrain
10-07-2002, 02:19 PM
ok, so we've established that "Captain" is Troll_King and I believe "SBob" is also. Was the name Troll_King banned or is this just his way of lying low for a while?

On the post itself, if you create programs using an API or not you are still a programmer.

On the topic, I wouldn't worry so much about palladium. It seems very much to be an added feature and not a problem.

RoD
10-07-2002, 02:19 PM
I'm afraid that there is no such thing as a Microsoft Windows programmer.


Yea your right there isn't, windows o/s fell out of gates's ass.

Thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard man.

Fordy
10-07-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by FillYourBrain
ok, so we've established that "Captain" is Troll_King and I believe "SBob" is also.

Actually...no :)

SBob is someone else.....

"I know who but I wont tell"

:p

RoD
10-07-2002, 02:32 PM
*COUGH* FORDY *COUGH*

FillYourBrain
10-07-2002, 02:35 PM
fordy? you practicing to be like TK behind a different name? shame!

Fordy
10-07-2002, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Ride -or- Die
*COUGH* FORDY *COUGH*

LOL...no...if it was me I would hardly bring attention to myself....

Though I must say that I largely agree with SBob....and I always have on this kind of stuff......I like coding for windows....but I dont really trust M$ and I dont like the basic ideas of Palladium

FillYourBrain
10-07-2002, 02:39 PM
ok, I thought SBob was a stretch anyway. but Captain has to be. nobody talks quite like that except TK

Captain
10-07-2002, 03:12 PM
Programming for Microsoft or any vendor for that matter is about using tools. It's about contracting the vendor to build systems for you and relearning how to use their tools every two or three years depending on the SDLC. In order to use the new features of the platform than you will have to go on yearly subscription of about $1000.00 (at least for Microsoft).

On open source platforms you can use their tools, but you also have the freedom to the implementation from which you can acquire the knowledge to build your own systems. That's what I consider to be a computer programmer.

FillYourBrain
10-07-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Captain
Programming for Microsoft or any vendor for that matter is about using tools. It's about contracting the vendor to build systems for you and relearning how to use their tools every two or three years depending on the SDLC. In order to use the new features of the platform than you will have to go on yearly subscription of about $1000.00 (at least for Microsoft).

On open source platforms you can use their tools, but you also have the freedom to the implementation from which you can acquire the knowledge to build your own systems. That's what I consider to be a computer programmer. LOL! I hate to say it but I'm starting to admire his trolling technique. Although I don't see why anyone would do it, he is good at it.