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Prelude
07-31-2002, 09:39 PM
This post is for the moderators.

In recent months I've noticed an increase in trolls who cause trouble on the C and C++ boards. The resulting flame wars are acceptable in the GD board, but are completely inappropriate for the help boards. As such, I request that they be moderated in a more strict manner to remove offensive posts that add nothing substantial when they are first posted. It is getting so bad that those seeking help are being hurt by them.

-Prelude

d00b
07-31-2002, 09:52 PM
I know what you mean... some people here get a kick out of starting arguments...

I too, am becoming utterly tired of certain people calling beginners with legitimate questions stupid... shooting down other people's ideas, and being hyper-critical to other's work (mostly towards the poor beginners)

bah! :mad:

d00b
07-31-2002, 09:55 PM
And yes, although I have only been here a few months, the overall meanness of the board has gone way up from what I've seen in this semi-short time

Hillbillie
07-31-2002, 10:07 PM
You ought've been here since way back when... :rolleyes:

Prelude
07-31-2002, 10:14 PM
>and being hyper-critical to other's work
There's nothing wrong with well intentioned hazing, it's enjoyable and helps to drive a point home for someone who is learning. This is healthy and useful, even though some confuse it for arrogance and cruelty. What I'm talking about is personal attacks which do absolutely nothing to help someone learn. They are meant only to hurt and it bothers me very much. If you are curious about the distinction, I can offer examples of the good kind of rough and tumble (generously and liberally provided by quzah). :D

>You ought've been here since way back when...
I heard about some of the holy wars way back when. Though I seriously doubt they were held in an area meant for instruction and not for off-topic banter.

-Prelude

Troll_King
07-31-2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Prelude
This post is for the moderators.

In recent months I've noticed an increase in trolls who cause trouble on the C and C++ boards. The resulting flame wars are acceptable in the GD board, but are completely inappropriate for the help boards. As such, I request that they be moderated in a more strict manner to remove offensive posts that add nothing substantial when they are first posted. It is getting so bad that those seeking help are being hurt by them.

-Prelude

I have been polling for this action to take place for a long time, but the moderators and the webmaster claim that they want a democratic board. I have never heard such a stupid thing before, I'm with you 100%. We need one person to decide what is right and what is wrong!!! I will volunteer as that person because I have the Talmud nearby and it will guide me. The first action is that I should be knighted. I also need to unite with a virgin female in her late teens. She will be transformed into a unicorn and I will be blessed. I have been polling for this for some time. Maybe now it will finally come to pass.

ygfperson
07-31-2002, 10:20 PM
on a related topic, it seems that newbies here post with profound fear for their lives (or at least ridicule). they start off saying they're newbies, show their code (sometimes without code tags, and sometimes irreversably flawed), and beg for assistance. i have to agree that there should be a more newbie-friendly attitude in the c/c++ areas.

//edit: beaten by troll_king...
always the voice of sensibiliy

mithrandir
07-31-2002, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Troll_King


I have been polling for this action to take place for a long time, but the moderators and the webmaster claim that they want a democratic board. I have never heard such a stupid thing before, I'm with you 100%. We need one person to decide what is right and what is wrong!!! I will volunteer as that person because I have the Talmud nearby and it will guide me. The first action is that I should be knighted. I also need to unite with a virgin female in her late teens. She will be transformed into a unicorn and I will be blessed. I have been polling for this for some time. Maybe now it will finally come to pass.

Ha ha ha!!! :D That is too funny Troll_King!

Prelude
07-31-2002, 10:41 PM
>We need one person to decide what is right and what is wrong!!!
Well, not quite that strict. ;) A little bit more of Salem's decisive death-mod would work wonders though.

-Prelude

golfinguy4
07-31-2002, 10:49 PM
This is what we should do. Whenever someone comes to the board and is deemed a first time visitor (no cookie sounds the easiest), a popup should come up explaining to them to search the board, use code tags, ect... I don't know if this is possible though b/c I don't know the code for this board.

Prelude
07-31-2002, 10:51 PM
>This is what we should do.
What does this have to do with trolls causing trouble? New members learn such things quickly enough as it is. ;)

-Prelude

icarus
08-01-2002, 02:53 AM
It would also be nice if it was forbidden to post twice in a row. The edit button is actually existent for a reason-one known only to the legendary script programmers of yore (apparently), who seemed to come up (undoubtedly due to divine inspiration) with a surprising quantity of features that were intended for the convenience of posters, mods, and webmasters alike...Just a pet peeve.



I too, am becoming utterly tired of certain people calling beginners with legitimate questions stupid... shooting down other people's ideas, and being hyper-critical to other's work (mostly towards the poor beginners)

I don't see that happening very often here at all. What you read as 'hyper-critical' is probably meant as 'helpful.', and as 'shooting down of other people's ideas' as saying "that's not a good way to do x."

stautze
08-01-2002, 04:04 AM
If someone is flaming, ban for them a while. If they come back and are still flaming just ban them for good. End of story. This is a case where things don't have to be fair, and where the moderator can be judge, jury and I'll stop rambling now.

Troll_King
08-01-2002, 04:40 AM
The only problem with doing that, is all the best programmers would be banned and this place would quickly go down hill.

stautze
08-01-2002, 05:12 AM
>The only problem with doing that, is all the best programmers would be banned and this place would quickly go down hill.

you missed my point, the banning doesn't need to be done fairly. Banning a good programmer would be stupid even if he does flame, just ban idiots who flame. Its not fair, but it works.

Govtcheez
08-01-2002, 06:05 AM
Dean, so nice to see you around...

Prelude - some of what you and I might consider hazing, someone else might consider flaming. Can you show some examples of the flames you're talking about?

Remember, guys - all it takes is hitting that report post link - that's what it's there for.

nvoigt
08-01-2002, 06:09 AM
I agree that in the threads I saw, we clearly needed some modding before it came that far. If you notice such threads, please inform us once per thread. There is no need to warn us about every post in a thread, we are able to read the rest on our own ;)

Troll_King
08-01-2002, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by nvoigt
I agree that in the threads I saw, we clearly needed some modding before it came that far. If you notice such threads, please inform us once per thread. There is no need to warn us about every post in a thread, we are able to read the rest on our own ;)

I'll be on the lookout for these sick posts, and I'll be certain to let you know about them.

ober
08-01-2002, 07:07 AM
I must agree with Prelude and Hillbillie... things have gotten a lot worse since I first came here... even Quzah can take things to the extreme sometimes and he could be taken to be quite rude.

Basically, there's a lot of smarta$$es hanging around and it's a turn off to the new guys... DOWN WITH THE TROLLS!

Hammer
08-01-2002, 07:53 AM
>... things have gotten a lot worse since I first came here...
So it's your fault! I knew you were a bad'en Ober :D ;)

ygfperson
08-01-2002, 08:36 AM
c'mon, let's not blame it on all of the new guys! the "good ole' times" were not that long ago, anyway.


I have been polling for this action to take place for a long time, but the moderators and the webmaster claim that they want a democratic board.
i do, too. if i have to tolerate a few idiots, so be it.

ober
08-01-2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Hammer
>... things have gotten a lot worse since I first came here...
So it's your fault! I knew you were a bad'en Ober :D ;)

what can i say? I bring wrath and terror everywhere :D

Barjor
08-01-2002, 09:23 AM
There have been alot of personal bickering(sp) on the board lately. I fully support a stricter attitude from the mods. Delete or close the threads that turn into flame wars or personal vendettas, those things don't really belong here, not even on the GD board.Threads that is started with the only purpose of causing rage should also be deleted. If someone wants to give me a clever sarcastic comment about my attempt to get srand() to work that is fine and helps drive the point through. Although I sometimes think we could be alittle bit nicer to new members. If it was up to me there would also be 3 or 4 members that would get there IP blocked.

Govtcheez
08-01-2002, 09:25 AM
A lot of this seems to me like people think it's fine for gurus to bash newbies, but not the other way around... I guess that's just a feeling I get.

DISGUISED
08-01-2002, 09:39 AM
C++ board? OOOOOOOOHHHHhhhh you mean the Klinerr1 board. Nothing new over there really. This has gone on forever. We have had this discussion before. We will have it again. It's nice that people care though and personally I think the mods do a great job!

Prelude
08-01-2002, 09:52 AM
>Can you show some examples of the flames you're talking about?
The following two quotes are hazing. quzah replies with an answer and a slightly sarcastic attitude. No harm is intended and valuable information is passed to the OP. (This is also a case where the OP misinterpreted hazing for flaming).


It depends what you want to read. Want a string? Use fgets. Want a character? Use fgetc. Want a number? Use fgets. See a pattern here?

Quzah.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by quzah
quzah you failed to understand the main point of my post: sincere replies only please.

I don't know why everyone must act like a smart ass when people ask legitimate questions.

However, you did give a decent option and I was able to figure out how to use fgets with the standard input stream since the third parameter requires a file stream pointer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What the **** are you talking about? That was a perfectly legitimate answer, and I was 100% serious in all respects.

1) If you are trying to read a string:

fgets( buf, BUFSIZ, stdin );

2) If you are trying to read a character:

int c;
c = fgetc( stdin );

3) If you are trying to read anything other than a character:

fgets( buf, BUFSIZ, stdin );
...then validate the data...

I am 100% serious. fgets is without a doubt THE BEST way to read data, especially strings. Period. If I only had one option ever available to me to read data from the keyboard, it would be either fgets or fgetc.

Actually, were I to only have the option of ever using one again, I'd use fgetc. However, I'm more likely to know how to use it better than you (no slander intended) or a novice user, so if I was recommending one and only one way of getting data, I'd say use fgets.

There was no sarcasm or non-seriousness at all in that post. I stand by what I said 100% and dare someone to find a better way than what I have suggested.

There's your challenge. Find a better way of reading data [from the console] than what I have suggested that is portable and will prevent buffer overflow. You cannot use fgets or fgetc, since I've already claimed them.

I doubt you'll find a better way than either of those two. I'd love to see it.

Quzah.

And the whole thread is here:
http://www.cprogramming.com/cboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22801

Next is the start of a flaming. All relevant information has been given and this thread adds nothing new except personal attacks.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Prelude
>you never used scanf anywhere... ???
This is a good thing, scanf should be avoided.
-Prelude
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


scanf should be avoided... but not totally..
there were just a bunch of printfs in the code...
and input was accidentally forgotten...
that's the reason why i said scanf ..

it's only the 3rd assignment... fgets is probably not
introduced so soon.

oh and by the way, I already got a PM.. looks
like the problem is solved..

people like you can go on whining about things that
others say/do ... but never learn to be humble/polite..
you are a great expert in c/c++ .. i understand.... but
you got to grow up in life and stop whining about every
little thing on this earth just trying to prove things so
trifle like "i've got less hair in my armpits than you do"
(phhh... really funny example here.. )

>but sometimes working through a problem simply by studying >your code and reading books until your eyes bleed is the best >way to learn

I wouldn't recommend any sane person to read till their eyes
bleed. it's not the best way to learn. the best way to learn
is to work hard (practicing/researching), but with atleast some
consideration to hygiene.

this applies to someone...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

humbleness & politeness are virtues. some people think they are too good to understand/follow them.

The thread can be found here:
http://www.cprogramming.com/cboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22573

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I see a distinct difference between giving good answers/advice with a sarcastic attitude and throwing insults and profanity because you don't like someone. Further flames from this person were considerably worse and I felt they shouldn't be repeated.

>A lot of this seems to me like people think it's fine for gurus to bash newbies, but not the other way around...
It's not who bashes who, but how they bash. If it's all in fun then there's no problem and everyone can participate. It it's meant only to hurt then there's a problem, that's why I started this thread.

-Prelude

skipper
08-01-2002, 10:28 AM
I couldn't agree more, though I must count myself in among the "guilty" for diving into last night's fray. Sheer frustration over exactly the type of tone and content that you mention, I suppose. (I still don't know how you started that fiasco :p.)

Kidding aside, had that mess taken place on the street, the police would have been summoned. That's just plain lunacy.

-Skipper

Govtcheez
08-01-2002, 10:35 AM
OK - point taken, Prelude... I'll keep an eye out - still, using that report link's is a really, really good way to get that post looked at and entered into the process by whcih a bill becomes a law, or something.

nvoigt
08-01-2002, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Troll_King


[...] but the moderators and the webmaster claim that they want a democratic board. I have never heard such a stupid thing before, I'm with you 100%. We need one person to decide what is right and what is wrong!!![...]


I posted the following sentence in the last thread called Moderator Decisions:



Originally posted by nvoigt
Speaking frankly, this is not a democracy.
The webmaster rules and we are his evil henchmen.


I guess that was clear enough :p

Cshot
08-01-2002, 11:05 AM
Banning a good programmer would be stupid even if he does flame, just ban idiots who flame. Its not fair, but it works.
So first we need to make a list of "good programmers". Boy this will be interesting.



I also need to unite with a virgin female in her late teens.
I present to you what you've requested oh mighty one (Ties Ober up on a pole). Now we need members to gather and do the ceremonial dance :D

The Dog
08-01-2002, 12:01 PM
i aint no mod, but here's a solution:

add some more emoticons.;)

ober
08-01-2002, 12:44 PM
ok, here's an example...

The Dog, you... are a retard. Get a clue.

See, now that's meant sarcastically, but I'm helping at the same time. Is that acceptable?

>>I present to you what you've requested oh mighty one (Ties Ober up on a pole). Now we need members to gather and do the ceremonial dance

hey now... I fail all 3 of the requirements on that demand ;) Looks like CG is our next best bet... then we move to Prelude if that falls through...


oh damn... are we getting off topic again? :)

adrianxw
08-01-2002, 01:55 PM
None of the moderators are on line all off the time. Most of them, less time than they would like. Report posts that offend, and agreeing with earlier, once per thread , spamming us does not help.

dbaryl
08-01-2002, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Prelude
...
The thread can be found here:
http://www.cprogramming.com/cboard/...&threadid=22573

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I see a distinct difference between giving good answers/advice with a sarcastic attitude and throwing insults and profanity because you don't like someone. Further flames from this person were considerably worse and I felt they shouldn't be repeated.
Luckily, most of the people on these boards are sane and are able to see just who was acting like an idiot in that thread mentioned above. I've tried my best to ignore posts of that manner, but I do think that something needs to be done.

Democracy sounds good, but we don't want a democracy... so I say: mods, step up, and delete my post... Or, I meant... :D Seriously though, I wouldn't mind if it was a bit more strict for the good of the rest.

Fountain
08-01-2002, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by ober5861
ok, here's an example...

The Dog, you... are a retard. Get a clue.




Ummm, I a PRETTY sure calling somebody a RETARD is not the sort of thing you wanna do..

You will either get sued or maybe shot............

It is not a nice thing to do in a modern age...;)

Fountain
08-01-2002, 03:49 PM
oooops forgot to add...I will flame and argue for ever in a good thread-BUT NEVER on the C++ boards etc. GD is ok in my book though.

What is the point? If you dont want to help people without being NASTY, dont post anything..Simple huh?

The Dog
08-02-2002, 01:17 AM
>> The Dog, you... are a retard.

more bluntness, less sarcasm

ober
08-02-2002, 06:14 AM
oh, I could be more blunt... but I don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings. :) (at least not entirely directly anyways)

ygfperson
08-02-2002, 01:13 PM
f*** you!

how's that for blunt? :D

Unregistered
08-05-2002, 05:03 PM
[QUOTE]
PRELUDE
>there is nothing wrong with intentional hazing, it is enjoyable .....


YES, it is true. there is nothing wrong with intentional hazing, it is enjoyable ... as long as you are not the one being hazed.. :D

lightatdawn
08-05-2002, 06:40 PM
Hey, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger. Quzahs on a personal quest to make the newbie programming world into supermen. He should be congratulated. ;)

>>as long as you are not the one being hazed..

But if you survive the hazing you get to be one of the community and one day reach a point when you yourself can haze someone else in. :p


In recent months I've noticed an increase in trolls who cause trouble on the C and C++ boards. The resulting flame wars are acceptable in the GD board, but are completely inappropriate for the help boards. As such, I request that they be moderated in a more strict manner to remove offensive posts that add nothing substantial when they are first posted. It is getting so bad that those seeking help are being hurt by them.

Though not an official position of the Mods, I'll be keeping an extra close eye on things (on the non-GD forums). I have limited time though so I ask that people use the 'Report' button. Please, only once per thread. If someone feels that a thread is heading into the land of flames, report it and i'll jump all over it. We want people to recieve a bit of friendly coding help here, not put them on the path to needing psychological help in the future. :)

Sayeh
08-05-2002, 06:56 PM
I agree with Prelude-- it's gotten worse here. yes, of course, I take certain blame because I've flamed a few people (including prelude).

However, I think flaming is probably a symptom of a growing sense of frustration with this board. Here, atleast, is what I see--

I see lots of newbies who:

1) Don't know there compiler
2) Have never read _any_ book(s) on C
3) Haven't read their compiler docs
4) Don't have a clue about scope, header files, includes, etc.
5) Don't know what functions C supports or what libraries they're in...
6) Want spoon fed the answers to their class material and more...
7) FAQ? What's that?
8) won't even take a stab at the problem.
9) put silly thread headers on like "look at this PLEEAAAASSEE" or "I really NEEd help!", or "it just won't work, what to do", or "not working", or "can't figure out".

In short, flaming is a symptom of burnout. This is supposed to be a C programming board, not "Compiler 101" or "C syntax 101", or This C-standard versus that C-standard.

What would _really_ be nice to see, and I have yet to see it, is people posting serious problems that are technically challenging. Newby stuff gets old because they refuse to read the FAQ.

As far as I'm concerned, newbies should be banned... or fluffed off to some section so the pros can get down to business and help each other out.

Now, that would obviously not be possible, but perhaps some division could be made, or some distinction so that newbies stayed quietly in one area and certain of us gurus chose to help them, and other gurus chose only to work with other pros.

I mean, no offense to the little guys (everybody starts somewhere), but I got tired of changing code-diapers a _long_ time ago (years)...

Well, that's my $0.02.

Prelude
08-05-2002, 07:05 PM
I agree Sayeh, one thing I would love to see here is an Expert forum for those who are beyond beginner problems. The C and C++ forums would be something of a basic program and syntax Q&A area while the Expert forum would be for more advanced questions and discussions. I've seen too many good and challenging questions fade away unanswered because there were just too many beginner questions surrounding them.

-Prelude

lightatdawn
08-05-2002, 07:07 PM
>> However, I think flaming is probably a symptom of a growing sense of frustration with this board. Here, atleast, is what I see--

Agreed on all points. The only problem is the classification of 'newbie'. When I first got into Win32 and DirectX I posted a few stupid questions. Yet I'd been programming for about 6 years prior. And I've seen boards that have an 'Expert Problems' forum. It doesnt work. Often people think their particular problem is complex and difficult, because to them it is.

I'm experiencing burnout currently as well. From idiots. Theres so little intelligent content on these boards lately. I know it'll pass though.

But the fact remains that I wish I had more time to go back to helping people out with their problems (something I havent been doing in a rather long time). Mainly its because I wish I had something like this board when I was starting out. All the weeks I spent pouring over the compilers help files and peering into headers I could barely understand... Learning was a very slow and painful process without the internet, books, or friends that programmed. I figure that if I can save somebody a weeks torment in a couple of minutes then its worth it (as long as they learn!).

skipper
08-05-2002, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Prelude
I agree Sayeh, one thing I would love to see here is an Expert forum for those who are beyond beginner problems. The C and C++ forums would be something of a basic program and syntax Q&A area while the Expert forum would be for more advanced questions and discussions. I've seen too many good and challenging questions fade away unanswered because there were just too many beginner questions surrounding them.

-Prelude

Really? You respond to 'beginner' problems on a regular basis, on the C Board more frequently than the C++ Board, though your responses to "newbie" questions on the C++ Board have increased lately.

Frankly, I support an "expert" forum. I think it would be good for the site, and good for those of you tired of facing the, seemingly, unending flood of well...newbie...questions.

I'm a little concerned, however, that when the "experts" climb down from 'on-high', the relationship garnered between those of us trying to help, and those new to the Board seeking help, isn't compromised.

A "ticklish" situation? Perhaps.

lightatdawn is concerned about "intelligent content". Well, he/she (here we go again) should be. Where have we "raised the bar"? By example, nvoight, Salem, SilentStrike, Prelude, etc. certainly. (Sorry if I left anyone out.)

You pick your threads the same as you pick TV channels. Beneath you? Fine. Want to respond? Do so. Just remember where you are.

-Skipper

Prelude
08-05-2002, 08:50 PM
>Often people think their particular problem is complex and difficult, because to them it is.
I was thinking of something like comp.lang.c if you don't mind the reference. The newsgroup is policed by its members, making sure that a new thread is on-topic and if not the poster is directed elsewhere. My idea of the expert forum is something similar, simpler problems would be redirected to the C or C++ forum.

>You respond to 'beginner' problems on a regular basis
Of course, I'm here to help anyone who needs it. Just because I support the idea of an expert forum doesn't mean I want to stop helping those who have just started. It means I want to separate the difficult questions from the easy ones so that they have an equal chance of being answered. Often I've passed over a question that seemed simple when it was actually quite difficult. This happens more often these days since I don't answer questions as readily as I used to, I'll look at a topic and choose whether or not to read it from the title.

>You pick your threads the same as you pick TV channels.
Very accurate, I choose threads based on my mood at the time. If I'm in a particularly foul mood then I won't answer any, a good mood and I'll fill the board with responses. ;)

>Beneath you?
Never. I dislike how some people wrongly conclude that I feel I'm better than others on these forums. I can understand how confidence can be seen as arrogance, so I ignore it and continue on as usual.

-Prelude

adrianxw
08-05-2002, 10:56 PM
Firstly, it is the summer silly season. The kids have lots of time on their hands. It happens every year.

Second, experienced/professional programmers know how to read the manual, use google etc., or think their way round a problem, that is why there are few "expert" questions. Solving problems is what IT is all about, we do it because it is our job. The kids/amateurs don't want to do the boring bits - they want to code-code-code and get help quick.

Third, I think if you have a problem you cannot solve, then it is probably an "expert" question, so everyone would post there, and we would spend forever moving threads around leaving re-directs cluttering the boards. On the old UltraBoard we had a Newbies board - those who have been around long enough could probably remember what confusion there was about which board - so frequently things were crossposted.

Personally, I spend more time reading/moderating rubbish on GD than helping out because I simply don't have the time to do otherwise right now.

Troll_King
08-06-2002, 06:12 AM
Get AdrianXXX to write a support program that can perform natural lanauge processing on a thread, and use Bayes probablilities in order to interpret content based on conditional search probabilities and pattern matching of thread content with C/C++ heuristics. Sort out the junk from the good posts.

Xterria
08-06-2002, 08:19 AM
shouldn't i be a part of this thread?

Govtcheez
08-06-2002, 08:22 AM
Yeah, adrian already mentioned you:
"I spend more time reading/moderating rubbish "