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Fountain
07-15-2002, 06:04 PM
You see it is simple...

I like MS products (hmmm XP) and can't understand why all the ppl on this board keep slating them..

Does no body except me think XP is a highly polished product?- granted ME was supposed to be, but was rushed out etc..

Does no 1 else think office XP is really NICE? And by NICE I mean useful, helpful and constructive etc.

I think it's because of Bill Gates, or is he just your scapegoat?

I think he deserves to be rich as he made a product that EVERY1 wanted at a time when there were very little other options....DOES this make him a BAD man? I think not.

If, to ease my mind, somebody can say why they dont like MS and its products in a sensible, unbiased way, I would be very grateful.


Not that I will use it at Uni or anything to make a nice project...lol

That aside, I am dismayed to find a great number of anti MS on here! TELL me why..........




I use XP, office XP, outlook, numerous games...UNI uses NT.

The Dog
07-15-2002, 06:12 PM
I'll have to agree with Fountain's post.
Just because Microsoft has the monopoly, doesn't mean that
there software is bad.

Have you seen a better GUI than XP's?:D

toaster
07-15-2002, 06:14 PM
now you're starting to remind me of Rockefeller.

Fountain
07-15-2002, 06:15 PM
Thank you, the_dog

I appreciate positive replies...

Every1 else seems quiet....

monopolys can produce (and WILL) the best product

Fountain
07-15-2002, 06:16 PM
now you're starting to remind me of Rockefeller.

And YOU think this can be applied here? Hmmm bit different methinks...but you have your fun

toaster
07-15-2002, 06:22 PM
my only complaint against Microsoft would be if they haven't burnt such a big hole in my pocket for using their products. is it worth it? maybe to the wealthy but as a middle class man, half a thousand on this and that really limits my expenses on other products.

other than that, I remain neutral.

Clyde
07-15-2002, 06:35 PM
"monopolys can produce (and WILL) the best product"

Monopolys can produce crap products at high prices because they have no competition.

Fountain
07-15-2002, 06:43 PM
Clyde has it in for me tonight...........

Yes, they can occasionaly produce crap, but in this context we know that MS have not!


As for the price , yes I agree your pocket may be burnt.....but there is (now) viable options.....why did you not choose differently?

When it comes to MS NEW licence policy EVEN I have my doubts...

Free upgrades a thing of the past etc

The Dog
07-15-2002, 06:43 PM
Monopolys can produce crap products at high prices because they have no competition.

The point of this thread is that Microsoft doesn't make crap
products.

It's the haters who reckon there software is crap.

Clyde
07-15-2002, 06:57 PM
"Clyde has it in for me tonight........... "

Heh don't worry its not personal :).

I like most MS products, i was merely disagreeing with your statement which seemed to imply that monopolys were good.

tgm
07-15-2002, 07:02 PM
monopolys can produce (and WILL) the best product
Sorry, but I'm with Clyde (and others) on this one. Monopolies produce the only product you can get, which isn't always the best product.
I happen to think, given time, open source produces a better product.

My biggest grip with MS is all of the security issues they have. Largely this has to do with the convenience they strive for. People give up security for simplicity. Most PC users are lazy and security is an active process. I run Windows 2000 and Linux. MS does a lot of things right but is all about making money.
As younger programmers grow up, I think we'll start to see a shift to a Unix OS because they're being influenced early and are growing up with the technology. Plus, if you load up a stock version of RedHat, you'd hardly notice a difference from your Windows desktop.

lightatdawn
07-15-2002, 07:05 PM
>>Yes, they can occasionaly produce crap, but in this context we know that MS have not!

Say what?? Although I agree that not everything MS is evil, you cant say that they've never produced garbage. Outlook Express, Internet Explorer, and Windows ME, are all my favorite picks for being basically the worst software to be within 100 feet of.

Though I dont have XP on my system, I've used it and it appears that it is the best so far. Seems to be quite a step up. I'm also rather taken with Visual C++. Honestly I've never used anything nicer. I was previously quite the Borland fan but VC quitely and slowly won me over.

Fountain
07-15-2002, 07:15 PM
HEHE dont panic, I am still a Borland fan-you are not alone

To be honest I did not start the post about monopolies...

There is NO monopoly when some1 else can go out and make the same type of product....

I know MS had the bother with Netscape etc, but as far as OS go, some1 else can make one without fear of being SHOT!

So, no more monopoly stuff, just reasons (like the last post ie security) as to why you dont DIG MS...

It isnt clear yet this...I mean if some1 else wrote a BETTER OS than WINDOWS, they would not be dragged away by the FBI or something...they would be ALLOWED to market it. No monopoly there then

Fountain
07-15-2002, 07:16 PM
Though I dont have XP on my system, I've used it and it appears that it is the best so far. Seems to be quite a step up.


Try it and be happy :D :D :D :D

Govtcheez
07-15-2002, 07:17 PM
> That aside, I am dismayed to find a great number of anti MS on here! TELL me why..........

Because MS is the big boy on the block and it's fun to back the underdog. It's not just here - it's all over the programming community. Search google for "Linux sucks" and for "Microsoft sucks" and see which one you get more responses to (seriously, I'm curious and lazy :)).

I like MS's products, usually (he said, typing in XP Home). XP's a nice, nice OS... I don't have a lot of experience in UNIX environments, but the ones I have had have been pretty negative (it was on Solaris... the negativity can be at least partially attributed to the fact I was using it for homework). What I'm not a huge fan of is certain practices of them, mostly on the business side - licensing, Palladium, among other things...

edit: hit the button before I was done.

Fountain
07-15-2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
> That aside, I am dismayed to find a great number of anti MS on here! TELL me why..........

Because MS is the big boy on the block and it's fun to back the underdog. It's not just here - it's all over the programming community. Search google for "Linux sucks" and for "Microsoft sucks" and see which one you get more responses to (seriously, I'm curious and lazy :)).




YEH, thanx for the reply...do you really search for MS sucks? hehe

Anyway my sort of point here is that ANY1 could make a breakthrough and be rich rich rich!

I suppose history tells us its always the small person that makes a BIG discovery.....


So, to the people that do slag MS off...why? Go out and invent something better..

The Dog
07-15-2002, 07:29 PM
So, to the people that do slag MS off...why? Go out and invent something better..


The unfortunate reality is that because MS has the monopoly,
they have billions and billions, so the cost for creating brilliant apps is way within their budget.

NOT so with other companies, not to mention MS haters.

Govtcheez
07-15-2002, 07:47 PM
> they have billions and billions, so the cost for creating brilliant apps is way within their budget.

Some of the most brilliant apps came out of people's garages - money has nothing to do with it. The problem with the monopoly is that MS has their fingers into so many pies so deeply that it's difficult for anyone else to pull out a plum. Until someone develops a product that's better than Windows in every way (esp. user-friendliness... us aside, most people would rather see cookie-cutter design than a command line), MS is gonna stay on top.

-KEN-
07-15-2002, 10:03 PM
Eh, they've produced crap and will continue to produce crap. Not to mention that I don't forsee them giving up anti-competetive practices any time soon (if what I've read about palladium has any shred of truth in it, that is..) - but all-in-all they've made some wonderful products, and some fantastic business moves, and that's why they're on top.

But personally I'm not a big Linux fan, BeOS has little support, UNIX is unfriendly at best, MacOS...well I don't enjoy being stuck on macs, and BSD..well I dunno, never felt like trying it but I think it's like Linux, right? So that leaves me with Windows, and I'm more than happy with it (XP/2K/NT, at least...but I even like WinME more than Linux...call me crazy :))

lightatdawn
07-16-2002, 12:15 AM
>>but I even like WinME more than Linux...call me crazy

Gladly: You're crazy. ;)

From the experiences i've had on friends systems with ME, I've concluded that you might as well use your tower as a fish bowl. I've suggested as much to them, but they just stare blankly as they are unable to comprehend the meaning of 'OS' let alone that there may be different ones available.

Ah well, whatcha gonna do (besides getting a fuel efficient car to minimize gas costs spent making the circuit every week to fix their computers [for free]).

Sebastiani
07-16-2002, 01:05 AM
MS hasn't always created such "wonderful" products, historically speaking (look at DOS:D ). Their luck was mainly in the timing as at the time there were few GUI's out there when they released the first Windows. But to be fair, they've come a long way. The biggest problem is in what cannot be seen. The windows OS has increasingly become very snoopy and secretive in it's capabilities, uses, etc. and it WILL get worse if/when Paladium ever comes to fruition. I admire MS in many ways, but I feel they have too much of a "own the world" mentality. Too bad.

TK
07-16-2002, 01:44 AM
I don't think that the MS operating systems are the best, not even close, however I'm not surprised that some of you guys think this way.

MS is a barrier to my ability to learn computer programming. I want to learn about the implementation of the operating system as well specialize my system as I pursue research and development.

Unfortunately many of you do not understand that most of the MS solutions were not created by them, but are standardized patterns that were merely used.

Start with a layered architecture and you must build upon that architecture, however there are more choices.

To say that Microsoft is the end all of computer science is very sad. You should not short change your self or end users.

Even Micrsoft is a newbie to some of the solutions, take frameworks for example. It is an effective technology but I don't want to wait for Microsoft to pull my pants down and help me ......... I can do that myself.

Hopefully you will mature and see the difference.

TK
07-16-2002, 01:53 AM
I also believe that if you do not educate yourself about the origins of solutions, than Microsoft will use that knowledge against you as a weapon. In a way you could deserve this. That's just life.

minesweeper
07-16-2002, 03:07 AM
The way I see it is that MS produced Windows so that you could run Office. I mean office has got to be by far and away the most used application worldwide. I would go as far to say that just about every person sat at a PC in an office has a copy of MS office on their machine. That's where the money is made, business!! Microsoft predicted this so produced an OS simple enough that anyone (even my 60 year old computer illiterate mother) can use a computer. They then produced equally as simple office applications. The majority of people don't wish to know how a CD player, a TV or a VCR work. They just want to be able to use it. MS windows allows this for a computer.

I often hear people complain that MS has a monopoly and that you can't buy anything else. But imagine if every business used different operating systems. It would be hell on earth trying to facilitate communications between different machines!

Has anyone used MS Project? Is it superb!!

mfc2themax
07-16-2002, 06:03 AM
Read the following books:

-Pride before the fall
-Barbarians led by Bill Gates
-The Microsoft File: The Secret case against Bill Gates

and you'll know why, I hate them......

Govtcheez
07-16-2002, 06:08 AM
Allow me to translate Dean's post for those of you that are new here:

"I don't think that the MS operating systems are the best, not even close, however I'm not surprised that some of you guys think this way.

(Windows crashed once - I want Gates's head on a stick)

MS is a barrier to my ability to learn computer programming. I want to learn about the implementation of the operating system as well specialize my system as I pursue research and development.

(I found a Linux book under my sofa cushions - I love it...)

Unfortunately many of you do not understand that most of the MS solutions were not created by them, but are standardized patterns that were merely used.

(... until MS comes out with something new)

Start with a layered architecture and you must build upon that architecture, however there are more choices.

(Look! Buzzwords!)

To say that Microsoft is the end all of computer science is very sad. You should not short change your self or end users.

(This Linux book is neat! It's got a horse on the spine!)

Even Micrsoft is a newbie to some of the solutions, take frameworks for example. It is an effective technology but I don't want to wait for Microsoft to pull my pants down and help me ......... I can do that myself.

(My title was ".NET Crusader" a couple months ago)

Hopefully you will mature and see the difference.

(And show it to me)"

Xmevs
07-16-2002, 06:45 AM
People don't hate MS software. People hate MS. There's a difference.

ober
07-16-2002, 07:46 AM
cheez... that was the best... LOL... Dean, go back to sleep ;)

Sebastiani
07-16-2002, 08:32 AM
The 'cheez speaks the truth- SAY IT, DEAN!! :D

Unregistered
07-16-2002, 09:37 AM
Its the business practices of MS that people hate. Take for instances the recent Media Player update...

People can build a better product but aren't ever going to be able too. Microsoft has made too many deals and have too much money. (Such as the deal with the Army) I have a friend who created a program to help people who are deaf/mute have a pda speak common things that they need help with (or want) MS heard about them and basically told them either come under MS or they will build the same product with more money to spend. Is that fair? no MS is a buy all who could possibly make some money and if they don't smother them. And btw I don't use my Windows OS to use MS Office (I use staroffice) the only reason I have it is two-fold : 1- It was force fed onto my computer and 2- For NWN :)

Tell me why is it that you can't get home pc's with linux on them? Microsoft has made it illegal to get a home pc with linux preinstalled. (unless the rulings I have heard about has changed). They attempt to stomp out Open Source Projects (I wonder why?) but then they go and take code from those for there *new* OS

netboy
07-16-2002, 10:24 AM
The only thing that I like about Microsoft is their Office package and the new XP platform.... Nothing else... Other stuff from MS is kinda sucks (I think...)...

raimo
07-16-2002, 10:26 AM
Microsoft has some power. Microsoft is a clever company while it has sold so much software to people at development state. I don't know any other company which has made so much money by selling that kind of products. It has even been able to get the trademark so popular that many processor vendors install Windows by default to their computers.

But I have also noticed that Open Source produces better software. The difference is in debugging. All the software is tested many times by people around the world and the only target is to make it as good as possible. If a security hole is found, it is fixed immediately to the next distribution. Therefore I use Linux. I would probably be willing to pay as much money for Linux as for Windows if Linux was Open Source but cost a fee(which is almost impossible).

I don't find MSVC++ very convenient to use. Emacs is faster to write with and you can do a lot of other things than Win32 programs. I don't love MS Word either. There are many alternatives in Linux and the alternatives are (1)free and (2)open source.

Cshot
07-16-2002, 10:50 AM
I don't think monopolies will produce the best products possible. Although I think MS products are decent. Use them all the time: Word, Excel, Windows, IE ...

However, do you guys think we would have 2 Ghz+ computers so soon if AMD didn't jump in the picture? Or maybe we'd be using Voodoo 6 video cards from 3dfx if Nvidia didn't jump into the picture. I highly doubt though, any other companies will give MS a run for their money any time soon. :(

Sentaku senshi
07-16-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered

Tell me why is it that you can't get home pc's with linux on them? Microsoft has made it illegal to get a home pc with linux preinstalled. (unless the rulings I have heard about has changed). They attempt to stomp out Open Source Projects (I wonder why?) but then they go and take code from those for there *new* OS

Correction you can't get a home PC with windows and Linux on it. Now actualy think about what would happen if computers came with multible OS'es

**tech support for dell**
*ring*
TS:Hello, how may I help you?
Cu: When I turned on my computer I got this weird screen.
TS: Can you tell me more about it? How does it look? Does it say anything?
Cu: It says Windows and Redhat Linux
TS: It is your OS selection Screen.
Cu: Come again? What do you mean by OS selection screen?
TS: It allows you to choose your Operating System, Windows or Redhat linux.
Cu: What was windows before it was an OS?
TS: It has always been an OS.
Cu: then why didnt' I get this screen before:
TS: You get this screen because you now have redhat also.
Cu: What is redhat?
TS: A disto of linux.
CU: What is linux?
TS: An os created by Linus.
CU: Why did he create an OS, when there is windows.
TS: He wanted one that was Unix based.
Cu: What is Unix?
TS: An os creaed by AT&T.
CU: Oh, I get it. Calling me durring Diner isn't enought there is No a program to convice me to use AT&T. Now your in on it.
**phone is hung up**

mfc2themax
07-16-2002, 08:59 PM
Tell me why is it that you can't get home pc's with linux on them? Microsoft has made it illegal to get a home pc with linux preinstalled. (unless the rulings I have heard about has changed). They attempt to stomp out Open Source Projects (I wonder why?) but then they go and take code from those for there *new* OS

Exactly. If OEM's put Linux on their machines, Microsoft threatens to cancel their licenses to Windows. If that happens 99% of the market for that OEM gets wipped out, and they're dead.

TK
07-16-2002, 09:24 PM
Yeah but than people would see Linux and wonder why they weren't using it for all this time. The fact is that most home users have never seen Linux.

TK
07-16-2002, 09:28 PM
A few more reasons why I like Linux is because I can have a web server, email server, news server, file server, etc. All for free!!! And to begin with Linux is a better networking OS it has more capabilities.

face_master
07-16-2002, 10:27 PM
this is all well and good, but do u know the way Bill Gates thinks? His strategy is "...to make them NEED US." Watch a movie called "Pirates of Silicon Valley". Its about the origin of the home computer. It follows Steve Jobs and Bill Gates from college and to the time they were rich! It shows how Apple was winning the war in the competition of home computers, so Bill Gates pretended to be his ally and stole his operating system and changed the code a tiny bit and named it 'Windows'. The whole time Steve Jobs thought that IBM was their enemy, but all the time it was Bill Gates.

face_master
07-16-2002, 10:31 PM
>> Other stuff from MS is kinda sucks

Hey! Not everything! What about the best PC game ever --
SKI-FREE??

face_master
07-16-2002, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Cshot
However, do you guys think we would have 2 Ghz+ computers so soon if AMD didn't jump in the picture? Or maybe we'd be using Voodoo 6 video cards from 3dfx if Nvidia didn't jump into the picture. I highly doubt though, any other companies will give MS a run for their money any time soon. :(
Uhh..didn't 3dfx go out of bussiness last year? yeah...they were REALLY successful...

Clyde
07-17-2002, 05:08 AM
"Uhh..didn't 3dfx go out of bussiness last year? [sarcasm] yeah...they were REALLY successful"

That is his point, even though 3dfx were making crap 3d cards, if NVidia hand't been there, ie. if 3dfx had a monopoly, then we would be using inferior vid cards right now.

Govtcheez
07-17-2002, 06:02 AM
> Tell me why is it that you can't get home pc's with linux on them? Microsoft has made it illegal to get a home pc with linux preinstalled

Give me some proof of that. Otherwise, I really don't believe you. It WOULD be illegal for someone with an exclusive licensing agreement with MS to bundle Linux, but that's their fault then, isn't it?

> yeah...they were REALLY successful

Well, before nVidia came around, they actually were.

Troll_King
07-17-2002, 07:30 AM
Microsoft will severely restrict your freedom to understand and develop software, however it is your own stupidity through which they achieve success in this area.

Govtcheez
07-17-2002, 07:34 AM
What, and your intelligence is just coming to light, after giving us such absolutely anti-MS rants as "Give us a C# board because it'll be the $hit, I promise!"

http://www.cprogramming.com/cboard/showthread.php?threadid=56

Unregistered
07-17-2002, 12:28 PM
welcome to ms we hope you enjoy your 15 mins of running your pc before we randomly reboot it or blue screen you and dont hope for any patches of fixes youll just have to buy the new and buggier edition of wincrap

Govtcheez
07-17-2002, 12:31 PM
I've been running XP almost constantly for almsot 6 months now, and I've never had it bluescreen on me, and I've never had it reboot on me either.

Shiro
07-17-2002, 12:49 PM
But I have also noticed that Open Source produces better software.


It is not necessarily better in terms of quality. Note that a lot of open source programmers also are professional programmers. Do you really think that their commercial software is worse than their open source software?



If a security hole is found, it is fixed immediately to the next distribution.


At our company, we love our clients. If they report a bug or want something to be changed, then we'll do that as soon as possible.

The reason why this cycle takes more time at Microsoft is that they are monopolist. If there is a bug, the client has to wait, they have no other choice. So they can afford them to let the customer wait. The client can switch to a different OS, but that would mean the clients complete environment must be adapted to the other OS which could cost a lot of money and effort.



The fact is that most home users have never seen Linux.


One can wonder is most home users need it. Most home users use their PC for doing things like internet, e-mail and word-processing. And then Windows is fine. For technical things like programming things are different, but most home users don't do such things with their computer.



Microsoft will severely restrict your freedom to understand and develop software


Why? As a programmer (or non-programmer) you can choose from a lot of other operating systems. You restrict yourself if you focus on Microsoft.

subdene
07-17-2002, 03:54 PM
One of the most annoying things about Microsoft for me is the way in which they have incorporated the internet explorer browser into their operating systems. Therefore, other browsers such as Netscape have had to provide their software for free to try and compete with Microsoft. To make it fairer to other companies and to try and break Microsoft’s monopoly, their company should be broken down into different sections for different types of software. There’s probably nothing much a court could do about this problem.

TravisS
07-18-2002, 02:41 AM
Monopolies are made for a reason. That reason is, from a start, good products at a reasonable price.

Now yes, over time it will probably change because the once great company is now the only company who has made enough money to keep their name in the citizen's minds, and therefor the products don't matter much.

Most people think microsoft=windows and fail to realize how many other products they make. Just look at this conversation, most of it has been about Windows. Yes, this is a very important product, but it's not their only thing :p

We are flooded with Microsoft things everywhere. Places you wouldn't think of microsoft being. Who makes the mouse you are using right now? Mine is a Microsoft ;) It works great. What about your games? Who makes your favorites? My favorite motocross game (that I own) is by, of course, Microsoft. For as old as Motocross madness is, the gameplay behind it is awesome. Well, you get my point :p They are a very big company, with many products, and most often the "worst" ones are what seemingly makes them bad. I bet you have a ton of stuff made by Microsoft, or have used a ton of stuff (ATM macines for example) which are Microsoft involved, and never thought it was crappy.

Troll_King
07-18-2002, 02:53 AM
My keyboard and mouse is logitech. No, a monopoly is not a good thing. The reasons for this are described in antitrust law. Some bad things are going to result in the future because the company will turn to violence. It has too much at stake.