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minesweeper
07-15-2002, 08:43 AM
How many people here smoke?

Govtcheez
07-15-2002, 09:00 AM
Very occasionally - when I drink, I enjoy a smoke, but not otherwise...

netboy
07-15-2002, 09:14 AM
People normally say they smoke when they are "tension".... like when their mind is very busy and tense....

I still don't know why they would say like that because smoking will do bad for one's health, thus damaging the body and making the brain work less effectively than normal...

I am a non-smoker and I have no plan what so ever to smoke...:D

Betazep
07-15-2002, 09:15 AM
With a few beers... sometimes... much like the IM hungry Govt-the-cheese-of-greatness. (working on it)

>>>I am a non-smoker and I have no plan what so ever to smoke...

Good for you... it is addictive and will kill you. Wear your seatbelt too.

ober
07-15-2002, 10:13 AM
only the occasional cigar when drinking ;)

but I wouldn't do it otherwise... (i used to hate people like myself) ;)

VBprogrammer
07-15-2002, 10:32 AM
Wow, 11 non-smokers and 0 smokers. Looks like people are starting to see sence!

Govtcheez
07-15-2002, 10:36 AM
Or maybe the regular smokers got too winded to type on their way to the keyboard :)

Shiro
07-15-2002, 11:02 AM
>How many people here smoke?

I don't know how many people do smoke here, but I am one of the non-smokers.

Cshot
07-15-2002, 11:59 AM
Does 2nd hand count? Actually things have been better now and I see less places where people can smoke in public.

rahaydenuk
07-15-2002, 12:38 PM
I'm still waiting for the day when smoking in public places is banned.

If I started releasing carcinogenic gases into the air for others to inhale, apart from cigarettes, then I think I'd be arrested.

I think smoking in the vicinity of others, so that they have to inhale your gases is one of the most ignorant and selfish things, people do, and no, before anyone says, the smoker should move or put it out, not the other way around!

Recently some person sent a letter into our local newspaper complaining about a new shopping centre being developed in the area. He was complaining because the centre was going to be completely non-smoking. He was saying things like "How can I be expected to walk outside in the rain to smoke my cigarette?". I just cracked up, what an ignorant fool. He obviously had no care at all for the majority of people who do not want to contract cancer whilst doing their grocery shopping! I feel extremely sorry for people like that, who are just so damn-right selfish!

After saying all that, I want to say that, although I can't understand it, I have absolutely no problem with smokers who don't force it in the face of other non-smokers. It's the ignorant fools, who annoy me. Just as an ignorant non-smoker would annoy me.

Regards,

MrWizard
07-15-2002, 01:08 PM
Non smoker here ;)

MethodMan
07-15-2002, 02:49 PM
Gladly a non-smoker, its a filthy habit.

Xterria
07-15-2002, 02:52 PM
what's also a filthy habit is spending hours creating fan sites for people who don't even know you and even if they did they'd look down on you and laugh

oh yeah i don't smoke, just 2nd hand

Prelude
07-15-2002, 02:54 PM
>its a filthy habit
It's disgusting, addictive, and very expensive if you smoke a lot. I find smoking to be a major turn-off.

-Prelude

The Dog
07-15-2002, 02:57 PM
Well programmers usually endure heavy caffeine intake.
Smoking and caffeine don't go together. Then one gets you hyped
up, and the other calms you down.

I don't smoke, but I just can't believe the stats i'm seeing!

Where I live it's normal to smoke. Maybe this country's is just
abnormal.

RobR
07-15-2002, 03:08 PM
..... 5 months & counting.

Sentaku senshi
07-15-2002, 04:10 PM
I don't smoke for there main reason:

1. To much monney
2. Smells
3. My freinds have promised to break my legs if i start (my freinds unfourtonitly smoke)

VBprogrammer
07-15-2002, 04:19 PM
I think over the last few years smoking has become less cool in the eyes of most people. I can't help thinking that it might be something to do with the fact that we are not towards the bottom end of the inteligence scale that none have admited to smoking.

fyodor
07-15-2002, 04:45 PM
Second hand smoke has become a paranoia. Remember back in 95 when the EPA (I think) said that people who are over 35 but don't smoke but are regularly exposed to secondhand smoke had a 1 in 30,000 chance of getting lung cancer in a given year? I still remember an attitude of "oh god the black plague is coming again we're all gonna get lung cancer." I don't smoke, and I think it is pretty disgusting, but the danger of secondhand smoke have been blown out of all proportions. Statistically, a parakeet owner is five times more likely to contract lung cancer from his parakeet than from passive smoking. Other things that are more likely to give you cancer: 1 pork chop a week, a carrot a week, some OJ twice a month, a head of lettuce every two years. Some people need to get an angle on this.

Fountain
07-15-2002, 04:50 PM
Pratts

The reason no 1 admits to smoking is because most of you are not old enough anyway.

I DO smoke, and am not arsed if you think it is disgusting/blah blah.

I am 33 and old enough to make my own mind up!

I am the type of geezer who would not smoke in a place where people are eating etc, so I am a NICE guy.


I do smoke a lot...........:o


All this classroom talk about people finally seing sense..........RUBBISH!

Where I live there is a great number of smokers, none of which give a rats Ar** about the healh risks, because as you ALL incorrectly said - it is unfashionable....Yeh right, so is sex.


AND , moronic ones do not judge other people by their habits....It's a bit rude..

Oh damn, Prelude finds it a turn off.....Better sleep on my own tonight then..sniff sniff :( :( :( :(

Fountain
07-15-2002, 04:55 PM
It's disgusting, addictive, and very expensive if you smoke a lot. I find smoking to be a major turn-off.


Just to clarify.................


HEHE


and its not expensive - its the god damn tax! think yourself luck you yanks dont have to pay our petrol prices...You would all have pork chop/donut induced heart attacks.

In UK it costs £8.30 for 50g of rolling tobacco, in belgium the SAME packet costs £1.79.....YET.....it is made in England and EXPORTED out, YET still costs loads more because of tax.....explain that one then :confused:

Prelude
07-15-2002, 04:58 PM
>and its not expensive - its the god damn tax!
The tax makes it expensive. ;)

-Prelude

Govtcheez
07-15-2002, 04:59 PM
Hey - I never said I found it disgusting - I just don't do it (and yeah, I am old enough)... Overreact much, Fountain?

Fountain
07-15-2002, 05:13 PM
I only overreact when a ONE sided argument is taking place...like now.


Oh, and when I have no smokes.

Get a life-Get a smoke!

Fountain
07-15-2002, 05:15 PM
>and its not expensive - its the god damn tax!

Ho hum..the point that needs explaining is WHY the tax is so much more in certain places, not WHY it is more expensive....i KNOW its the tax.


NO POLITICS PLEASE. It was an observation

Yaj
07-15-2002, 05:28 PM
i tryed smoking for like a month and never got a buzz...all it felt like way sucking on a smokey straw to me.. no i don't smoke.

Clyde
07-15-2002, 05:32 PM
"All this classroom talk about people finally seing sense..........RUBBISH!"

Unfortuneately this is true, i know (mostly indirectly) many smokers, it is still seen as "cool", by impressionable teens (or idiotic arts students) who then get addicted.

One would hope though that gradually people do start to see sense.

"AND , moronic ones do not judge other people by their habits....It's a bit rude.. "

Most people atleast in part judge people by their habits. Whether or not they should is somewhat separate, but they do.

"tax.....explain that one then "

Smoking is discouraged by increasing the tax and the government makes money to spend on things like health care, do you have any idea how much money smokers cost the NHS..... hmm? (not incidently that i think that the NHS shouldn't pay for smoking related disease treatement, merely that its not unreasonable to get a portion of the funds needed from cigarette tax)

Fountain
07-15-2002, 05:51 PM
Smoking is discouraged by increasing the tax and the government makes money to spend on things like health care, do you have any idea how much money smokers cost the NHS..... hmm? (not incidently that i think that the NHS shouldn't pay for smoking related disease treatement, merely that its not unreasonable to get a portion of the funds needed from cigarette tax)


Ummm calling planet earth..come in please.....

Are you really under the impression that the MASSIVE tax on smokes is what the government pays to the NHS to pay for ANY illness, not just smoking???

Is that earth????????


Smokers keep you roads going, your streets lit at night, your rubbish bins empty etc etc.....


The NHS therefore SHOULD pay for smoking related diseases as WE PAY FOR IT TEN FOLD! and i pay my god dman NI like you...so, really you should receive less treatment than me......bears thinking about yes>!?!>


AND I pay for fuel and beer...the two other massively taxed items in the UK............


I must be a loyal citizen me.........


Remember smokes cost £4.30 (average) and 80% is tax....your petty tax and NI pays the NHS nothing in comparison......same as fuel and beer

lightatdawn
07-15-2002, 06:07 PM
>>It's disgusting, addictive, and very expensive if you smoke a lot. I find smoking to be a major turn-off.

Bang on correct. I had the misfortune of being, er, not in a fully functional state one evening, and wound up in a, er... close encounter with a female who smoked. In my less than reasonable state, I didnt think much of it immediatly, especially as she was quite attractive in other ways. But any of you non-smokers who have ever kissed a smoker, know that I soon realised my mistake. I dont think I've ever been so turned off so fast in my entire life. Despite my optomistic expectations I was really quite disgusted.

>>ones do not judge other people by their habits

Actually, I do. And I think its a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Ones habits can be very revealing of how a person thinks. I find it very interesting that people would allow themselves to become addicted to anything. And I'm not specifically saying this in a demeaning way, I merely state that it is part of a persons mental description. And I know too many smokers for anybody to BS me that they can 'quit at any time' and its not an addiction. Thats crap.

I'm a big fan of personal rights and thus I dont think that smoking should be made illegal. But just as anyone has the right to smoke, I have the right not to. That means that basically smoking should be restricted to private areas. Just as I dont like the smell of sewage and expect people to not ........ on the street, I dont like the smell of tobacco smoke, and will expect people to not blow it where I'm going to be breathing.

Clyde
07-15-2002, 06:24 PM
"Are you really under the impression that the MASSIVE tax on smokes is what the government pays to the NHS to pay for ANY illness, not just smoking??? "

What they spend the money on is irrelevant the point is it goes into public spending, and out of public spending goes a large amount on funding for smoking related diseases.

"The NHS therefore SHOULD pay for smoking related diseases as WE PAY FOR IT TEN FOLD!"

I favour the NHS paying for smoking related diseases but the opposing argument is that smokers get what the had coming to them and public money should be put to better use for various diseases that are less dependant on an avoidable activity....... as i say i do NOT subscribe to that argument but i do feel that the tax on cigs is more than justified as a result.

Fountain
07-15-2002, 06:25 PM
Is there 1 person here that would rather share a 10hr train ride with a non smoker than with a smoker....

Yes, thats right its not a myth...it breaks the ice, the people talk more....In UK non smokers will move to smokers carriages to get a decent conversation..............

At least the last post had half a brain, stating that he doesnt discriminate against smokers.

But he wants his freedom from smoke....lalalalalal

I WANT freedom from people that eat popcorn/drink pop in cinemas....I THINK THEY HAVE NOISY DISGUSTING habits. BUT I DO NOT JUDGE THEM....blah blah always different for smokers though..


I do not judge the popcorn eating pillocks 'cos they are noisy bastards......Their actions do not stipulate their persona...

They may annoy me, but at least I aint judged them...do the same for smokers

Clyde
07-15-2002, 06:30 PM
I judge people who talk in cinemas, don't you?

Popcorn eating doesn't bother me, in-fact smoking doesn't really bother me, but i can see why it does bother some people.

Besides, wanting freedom from smoke is somewhat different than freedom from popcorn eaters; popcorn eaters do not increase your chances of lung cancer.

Fountain
07-15-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Clyde
"Are you really under the impression that the MASSIVE tax on smokes is what the government pays to the NHS to pay for ANY illness, not just smoking??? "

What they spend the money on is irrelevant the point is it goes into public spending, and out of public spending goes a large amount on funding for smoking related diseases.

"The NHS therefore SHOULD pay for smoking related diseases as WE PAY FOR IT TEN FOLD!"

I favour the NHS paying for smoking related diseases but the opposing argument is that smokers get what the had coming to them and public money should be put to better use for various diseases that are less dependant on an avoidable activity....... as i say i do NOT subscribe to that argument but i do feel that the tax on cigs is more than justified as a result.


Do you know, I went to casualy the other day with my friend who busted her ankle.......

Now, we had a 8 hour wait, then X-rays/blah blah....


There were 75 people in the casualty queue..


NONE had a smoking related illness.


NOW, in the wards there is a VERY small % of ppl who were costing LOTS of money due to smoking.

DO not believe the hype/media scaremongering etc.

Smoking = BAD...i agree

There may have been LOTS of ppl in the ward with smoking related issues, but only 1 in a 1000 will need (or get) expensive treatment.




And I must say, that the tax on smokes was NEVER introduced as a NHS booster...read above...it makes BILLIONS for all the other services.

And, I MEAN BILLIONS.

So, Clyde, the point is that yes you agree that the NHS treat ALL its patients fairly (ohhh nice), and that you feel that justifies the tax on smokers....

The point is Clyde, it doesnt...If ALL the smokers duty went to the NHS, we would only pay (roughly) £2.50 per pack, and not £4.30...........

So.........maybe the REAL point is why not send all THAT cash to the NHS? It would make it the worlds #1, for smokers and NON smokers alike.

Fountain
07-15-2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Clyde
I judge people who talk in cinemas, don't you?

Popcorn eating doesn't bother me, in-fact smoking doesn't really bother me, but i can see why it does bother some people.

Besides, wanting freedom from smoke is somewhat different than freedom from popcorn eaters; popcorn eaters do not increase your chances of lung cancer.



NO, but they will raise your stress levels and increase your chances of a coronary

Clyde
07-15-2002, 06:54 PM
"So.........maybe the REAL point is why not send all THAT cash to the NHS? It would make it the worlds #1, for smokers and NON smokers alike."

I don't think so, the NHS has a budget of 65 billion pounds at present and will be over 100 billion by 2008. It still won't be enough. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_1935000/1935730.stm)

Smoking tax revenue raises about 10 billion pounds, and to be fair smokers cost the NHS only 1.7 billion BUT, i still think high tax on cigs is a good idea, the rest of that money gets put into education, housing, etc. And as a result of the high price smoking is discouraged.

This small article makes quite a convincing case IMO for high smoking taxes:

http://www.ash.org.uk/html/smuggling/html/whytax99.html

Fountain
07-15-2002, 07:01 PM
The people will smuggle because the taxes are high...If the taxes were fair there would be NO smuggling..Thats easy solved.


So clyde, you think (even now) that high taxes on smoking are fair even though you agree only 10% of the taxes help the NHS?


Hmm I suppose you think that ALL CAR TAX money pays for better roads and transport systems.

Or all ALCOHOL taxes pay for NEW PUBS and rehabilitation for alcoholics....sure they do..........

AND...FINALLY........the high taxes only DISCOURAGE the old and wise............NEW smokers(the cigarrette companies targets) are youngsters. They STILL think it is cool etc etc. They do not know about taxes etc and a good % of them still start.

Fountain
07-15-2002, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Clyde
"So.........maybe the REAL point is why not send all THAT cash to the NHS? It would make it the worlds #1, for smokers and NON smokers alike."

I don't think so, the NHS has a budget of 65 billion pounds at present and will be over 100 billion by 2008. It still won't be enough. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_1935000/1935730.stm)

Smoking tax revenue raises about 10 billion pounds, and to be fair smokers cost the NHS only 1.7 billion BUT, i still think high tax on cigs is a good idea, the rest of that money gets put into education, housing, etc. And as a result of the high price smoking is discouraged.

This small article makes quite a convincing case IMO for high smoking taxes:

http://www.ash.org.uk/html/smuggling/html/whytax99.html



Oh yes did you see the chancellors SWEEPING new cash reforms for schools etc today......He gave AWAY more than the TOTAL NHS budget for the year on various public services........


SO? So the point is that what he gave away equates to ONLY 4% of the total annual economy(budget)...........

4%? so we cant afford to give more to the NHS then? hmmm i believe we can....Politics eh?

Fountain
07-15-2002, 07:09 PM
oh and STOP looking at anti smoking sites for 1 sided views...like ASH........


EVER looked at FOREST web sites?


Thought not, but then again why should you? You dont smoke

Clyde
07-15-2002, 07:14 PM
"So clyde, you think (even now) that high taxes on smoking are fair even though you agree only 10% of the taxes help the NHS? "

I think taxes need to be raised somehow that article makes a good point when it says:

"The high level of tax on tobacco in Britain has two purposes: to reduce smoking through the price incentive, and to raise taxes from a source that has least impact on the economy. The alternative would be to raise taxes on work, investment or general spending"

High smoking tax, generates income that can be spent on health, education, roads, and all the other stuff that public money gets spent on, as well as discouraging smoking, that's why i think its a good thing.

"Hmm I suppose you think that ALL CAR TAX money pays for better roads and transport systems."

Car tax goes into public spending, what it actually gets spent on doesn't matter, whether they spend it on roads, education, health/whatever its all neccessary spending.

"the high taxes only DISCOURAGE the old and wise............NEW smokers(the cigarrette companies targets) are youngsters. They STILL think it is cool etc etc. They do not know about taxes etc and a good % of them still start."

I'm not so sure, youngsters don't neccesarily have access to infinite amounts of money. Though you may be right in that it has more effect on the older population, the point is though that it decreases the number of smokers, that is a good thing.

"%? so we cant afford to give more to the NHS then? hmmm i believe we can....Politics eh?"

I don't think they "waste" any of the money, the budget gets publicly announced so anyone can see it, if they were chucking large quantities away people would know about it.

Anyway i'll have to ocntinue this debate tommorow, i need some sleep!

Prasad kulkarni
07-16-2002, 02:24 AM
ooops..! i am in minority…… I smoke 2/3 cigarettes a day .

novacain
07-16-2002, 03:04 AM
I am a smoker, 12 - 15 per day.

I have my packet of Zyban to give up. Have tried patches, aversion(sp?) therapy and cold turkey.

Started when I was 16. So hooked it is the first and last thing I do each day.
Is a very good drug, except the delivery system.

It is a terrible habit I have spent over US$30,000 on since I started. I smoked a whole Porsche or one quater of my house!!!!!

I agree with the indoor ban, you try being at a Blackjack table with everybody puffing smoke at you. I agree with the high tax to provide for my illness later and pay for anti smoking adverts.

Will give up if it kills me (hopefully before it does).

When my sister came to my home to have a baby I did not smoke in my own home until they left.

Did you read the 'Malbrough Man' is suing the tabacco company for loss of health and 'reputation'?

Now I'll go outside for a quick ciggy.....

Davros
07-16-2002, 03:36 AM
I am a smoker. Started at 24 when I was couped up on a base in the Antarctic with a load a Russians.

Smoking is bad for me. I used to be able to run 5 miles in just over 28 minutes. Can't do that now.

However, I agree with Fountain. Much of what we hear from anti-smoking campaigners is simple propaganda. I have a right to smoke, it's bad for me, but its my choice. I am not a second class citizen because I do.

I don't think young people should be encouraged to smoke. However, I believe the over whelming anti-smoking propaganda makes it seems rebellious to young people, hence attractive. Smoking in the UK by young people is on the rise, despite crippling taxes.

Furthermore, many more people smoke but don't admit to it. This is because they are frightened of becoming the victim of anti-smoking hate campaigners.

Ever been in a traffic jam? Look around to see how many people are smoking in there cars!

nvoigt
07-16-2002, 09:59 AM
>There were 75 people in the casualty queue..
>NONE had a smoking related illness.

That's probably because smoking related illness is nothing you get to stand in a queue with. If something smoking related strikes you, you will get into surgery and/or intensive care.
I bet your ankle gets better. A smoking related illness won't.

I believe in freedom. To each his own, if you want to smoke, do so if you are alone or with people who don't care. But don't wonder if I don't visit you in your home, not to mention kiss a smoker. It's disgusting.

I believe in Darwin. Cancer cures smoking.

Fountain
07-16-2002, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by nvoigt
>There were 75 people in the casualty queue..
>NONE had a smoking related illness.

That's probably because smoking related illness is nothing you get to stand in a queue with. If something smoking related strikes you, you will get into surgery and/or intensive care.
I bet your ankle gets better. A smoking related illness won't.

I believe in freedom. To each his own, if you want to smoke, do so if you are alone or with people who don't care. But don't wonder if I don't visit you in your home, not to mention kiss a smoker. It's disgusting.

I believe in Darwin. Cancer cures smoking.




WHAT a load of tat!

Tje point was my TAX money from SMOKING pays for casualty departments as well....and IF YOU LOOKED CLOSELY it was my friend who BUSTED HER leg, not me..............


And smoking related illnessess wont get better???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????like what?????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????? we can cure lung cancer etc, its just a lottery as to who is strong enough.




I believe in freedom. To each his own, if you want to smoke, do so if you are alone or with people who don't care. But don't wonder if I don't visit you in your home, not to mention kiss a smoker. It's disgusting.



Arsehole. If a blond stunner who smokes came up to you and gave it plenty-you would not find it disgusting.

Now, moderator, stop confusing yourself....each to their own you say, but you dont want to have intimate relations with some1 who smokes? Each to their own.....yeh right.


And smoke alone? hmmm is outside ok now? In the pubs in my city centre, nearly every1 smokes....dont you realise??

Betazep
07-16-2002, 05:43 PM
Man, Fountain, you are difficult to understand sometimes.


Anyway... I have dated (before I was married of course) women that smoked. One such woman was very good with hygene. She used smoker's toothpastes and mouthwashes, quality breath mints, washed her hands afterward, and used nice smelling perfume.

She rarely smelled like cigarette smoke and had better breath than some of the other non smokers that I went out with.

When she smoked, she went outside and stood away from people and the house.

Sometimes I would drink a few beers and join her in a smoke.

She didn't inconvenience anyone, but herself. She will probably die from lung cancer some day (or quit). But that is ok. People kill themselves every day. People take risks every day. The guy that races around in traffic in his new porche. The woman that puts make-up on while driving after getting sloshing drunk the night before. Skydivers, mountain climbers, etc. Anyone who sets foot out of their door risks death.

Smoking can be an almost guarantee of death, though. But... there is only one thing certain in life is that death is guaranteed. We try to live longer and longer and longer. We are saddened when a guy dies from lung cancer or a heart attack at 55 when that is the above the life expectancy for nearly all developing countries (as it used to be our life expectancy at one time). So nowadays you get to tack on a few years, if you are lucky, by not smoking... drinking... doing drugs... living in a city... driving a car. That is great, but you will still die.

oh...lol... and popcorn eaters don't bother me at all.... it is those damn candy wrapper rustlers. I could just make them smoke (aka kill them).

To each their own.

Unregistered
07-16-2002, 09:21 PM
well hehe its illegal to smoke in public places in calgary now isnt it TK :p

TechWins
07-16-2002, 10:42 PM
Fountain, you have the most extremely biased point of view on smoking I have ever seen. Typically people who smoke are willing to admitt that it's bad (as in not smart) to smoke. Whereas you ,on the other hand, are trying to accuse people who do not smoke.

What's wrong with somebody not wanting to have smoke blown into their face? Absolutely nothing. Just as there is nothing wrong with somebody not wanting acid thrown into their face. Both are harmful. That's why all people should have the over dominating right of maintaing their health. Hence that smoking should only be allowed in private areas.

I know when I go to a restaurant I hate having people smoking around me, but luckily public smoking is largely banned now around here. People should have the right not to have smoke (a potentially damaging particle) enter their system.

And what kind of statement is this:


In UK non smokers will move to smokers carriages to get a decent conversation..............

I've never been to the UK, but I can tell you this, you are full of it. People who smoke have more interesting lives and better personalities how? Give me a break.:rolleyes:

Not to mention you're justification on spending a lot of money is cigarettes is that most of the cost is from tax. Who cares what it's from? It's still there. It's still poorly spent money, IMO. But if it provides you enough joy then what the hell.

Regardless, do what you will, and hopefully it'll only catch up to you later than sooner.:)

borko_b
07-17-2002, 08:52 AM
unfortunately i do....
i tried a few times to quit... (3 times)
but no success...

I started when i was teen , and i regret it...

Fountain
07-17-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by TechWins


And what kind of statement is this:



I've never been to the UK, but I can tell you this, you are full of it. People who smoke have more interesting lives and better personalities how? Give me a break.:rolleyes:






Roll the eyes my kiddy friend-you probably will understand when you are older.

It is well known that you get NO conversation from non smokers on a train etc etc, but in the smoking carriages you do...............I cannot give you like..figures or nothing, but it is true.

TechWins
07-18-2002, 01:24 AM
my ignorant, senial elder you will probably never understand...