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johnc
06-30-2002, 02:09 PM
can u really do more with C than VB? with vb you can take hold of any program and run commands in it, like runing a menu option, but can u do this with c? if yes , than how?

golfinguy4
06-30-2002, 02:21 PM
SendMessage

johnc
06-30-2002, 02:27 PM
?

borko_b
06-30-2002, 03:35 PM
>>can u really do more with C than VB?..

There are many things you cannot do in VB
one them is the fact that you cannot make executables...
VB is interpreted language... and it is slow...

>> with vb you can take hold of any program and run commands >> in it, like runing a menu

What exactly do you mean to *take hold of *
to hold what? the execution of a program?

golfinguy4
06-30-2002, 03:49 PM
SendMessage is a function included in windows.h. With it (and other windows.h functions), you can simulate just about everything a user could possibly do.

johnc
06-30-2002, 05:20 PM
thanks, can you tell me were i can find out more about windows.h and sendmessage
thx

Dual-Catfish
06-30-2002, 05:21 PM
http://www.google.com/
http://msdn.microsoft.com/

muttski
06-30-2002, 08:38 PM
Wow, its sad that someone even needs to ask that question.

ygfperson
06-30-2002, 10:16 PM
vb isn't just interpreted. it can be compiled too.

TK
07-01-2002, 05:07 AM
VB can not do as many things as C can do for the simple fact that the Microsoft operating system is built in C. Most of the major subsystems have C function interfaces. VB is a rapid application development language. The VB language is written in C, and it was designed to allow for easy construction of windows programs. The VB language does not exist anymore.

borko_b
07-01-2002, 06:22 AM
>>...vb isn't just interpreted. it can be compiled too...

May be but the exe comes with its interpreter i think...
its some dll .. vb***.dll

you cannot actually write a Win32 program in VB...
Show me a way of using standart kernel32.dll functions in VB...

They are all called into the vb***.dll one way or another
and you're using the API provided by this vb***.dll

So you're not making a Win32 program actually

you're using the API provided by some Virtual machine...

ober
07-01-2002, 07:05 AM
>>one them is the fact that you cannot make executables...

WHAT DID YOU SAY?? Have you ever programmed in VB? do you know what VB is? And I guarantee that you can make any VB program nearly as fast if not as fast as any C program.

>>May be but the exe comes with its interpreter i think...
its some dll .. vb***.dll

you cannot actually write a Win32 program in VB...
Show me a way of using standart kernel32.dll functions in VB...<<

you're on crack... :rolleyes:

>>The VB language does not exist anymore.

:eek:
You people are living in a C bubble... wakeup...

Fordy
07-01-2002, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by ober5861
And I guarantee that you can make any VB program nearly as fast if not as fast as any C program.


As far as I know, VB 6 cant make properly naitive system calls........the VB runtime dll thats loaded into the process does all that

A well written SDK program using a decent compiler should trounce anything written in VB

And I'm not saying this as a kneejerk C_KILLS_ANYTHING reaction (I fool with some VBA and VBScript myself :))

Monster
07-01-2002, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by borko_b
you cannot actually write a Win32 program in VB...
Show me a way of using standart kernel32.dll functions in VB...


Private Declare Function Beep Lib "kernel32" (ByVal dwFreq As Long, ByVal dwDuration As Long) As Long

Private Sub DoBeep()
Beep 2000, 500
End Sub

borko_b
07-01-2002, 12:36 PM
>>... Have you ever programmed in VB? ...
Not a single line in VB...
only qbasic, basic and apple 2 8 bit BASIC when i was young

>>...do you know what VB is?
Yes i do.. its a crap...

>> And I guarantee that you can make any VB program nearly as >>fast if not as fast as any C program.
Prove it...

>>you're on crack...
No i am not...
but i smoke Marijuana from time to time with friends on parties...


>>You people are living in a C bubble... wakeup...
VB is bubble , and it is going to pop...

Govtcheez
07-01-2002, 12:39 PM
> Not a single line in VB...

Then how the hell could you possibly be qualified to say:

>>>...do you know what VB is?
>Yes i do.. its a crap...

If you haven't programmed in it, you don't really know what it is. Welcome aboard the bandwagon, my intellectually challenged crowd following acquaintance.

ober
07-01-2002, 12:47 PM
it's not that I like to sit here and pick on people that make stupid comments... but when you have a programming language that is used thoroughly in business today to build interfaces, you can't really make a valid statement saying that "VB is crap" or whatever...

i hate people that make uninformed statements :mad:

borko_b
07-01-2002, 12:49 PM
>>...If you haven't programmed in it, you don't really know what >>it ...

You obviously didn't noticed the following line...

Not a single line VisualBasic
BUT MANY lines in
QBasic
BasicA
8bit APPLE 2 Basic


As for the executables ... Sorry
i messed it with the VBS used in the Excel tables

anyways VB is weak language:

why use it for making full blown applications when we have C\C++
(comming with standart libraries and API's )

why use it like interpred language! (using VBS and stuff)
when we have Java which is MUCH more powerfull ...

even Pascal is better ...

borko_b
07-01-2002, 12:52 PM
this is not *uninformed* statement
this is My own *opinion* ,
as it is my own i do express it as i like ...

Govtcheez
07-01-2002, 12:59 PM
Not a single line VisualBasic
BUT MANY lines in
QBasic
BasicA
8bit APPLE 2 Basic Right, I saw that. QBasic and the others are quite a bit different than VB. Like ober said, how can you call a language in use in so many businesses crap? I'm not a big fan of it, personally, but it does have its place, if not just for ease of use. I've got an idea - you make a Win32 app to play rock, paper, scissors in C, and I'll do it in VB. We'll see who gets done first.

borko_b
07-01-2002, 01:22 PM
>>Like ober said, how can you call a language in use in so many
>>businesses crap?

Yes and this is the bad thing... a businesman is not a programer so what he really needs is n easy script to insert into his excell tables or in some other bad **** called ASP (which really bad comparing to the PHP)
but he doesn't need a real language

BTW give me any example of a succesfull comercial program MADE with VB! I can't see any

>>you make a Win32 app to play rock, paper, scissors in C, and I'll do it in VB. We'll see who gets done first.

If you want to do it with Windows GUI interface
i'll use MFC

if you want to do it in console
i'll use C++ STL

tell me those are not fast enough

tell me, can you make a notepad with 3 clicks from the mouse??
(try with MFC)

i'm not a fan of MFC ... i hate it...
but when it comes to RAD ...

nvoigt
07-01-2002, 01:59 PM
I think VB is crap. I have programmed in it, and I'm forced to maintain quite a few programs written in it. However, you can make API calls in VB and you can make very easy GUIs in VB, which was a royal PITA with MFC. If you don't think so, you have never used VB and seen it's speed of development.

I like to say VB is the dark side of the source. It's simple, it's the easy way out, it's eeeevil.

This is why I like C# that much... it has VB's ease of use plus a real nice language in the background.

no-one
07-01-2002, 02:10 PM
but don't you see (nv) it's a trap!!

C# is just a more seductive form of VB, ITS STILL THE DARK SIDE!!!!

dirkduck
07-01-2002, 02:15 PM
"Not a single line VisualBasic
BUT MANY lines in
QBasic
BasicA
8bit APPLE 2 Basic
"

I've used many variations of BASIC (including QBasic). VB, which I've only used a couple times, is nothing like QBasic. Just because youve used QB/GWBasic/whatever BASIC, doesn't mean that they are like VB. Although im not particulary a VB fan, it is a pretty good language, and has its place amoung others today.

borko_b
07-01-2002, 02:18 PM
>>...its eeevil!...
Yeah man! it is :)
Let us pray for our souls ...
and we shall seek truth and peace in the Bible++! :)

anyways ...
C# is mystery for me...
what is the differnence between C# and Java for example...
(besides the intermidiate code)

and this .NET ...
what does the word "platform" means here...
is it a OS ... or is it a Virtual Machine like Java's

borko_b
07-01-2002, 02:29 PM
oh yeah
i forgot :)

heres a joke:

"
Bill Gates died and he went in hell...
the Master Devil was impressed with the Win32 OS (he installed it on the pits of lava so that he could fry the souls with just one POINT&CLICK on the mouse)
and he send him into a ring of hell full of Nice blond chicks and *****s...
"Well, said Billy, thats good! i thought this was hell!"
so he approached the first girl his eyes could see ...
She started to un-dress her reaally slow and sexy..
and Billy was so happy..!!!
BUT just as he was ready to introduce his little friend to the chick , she disappeared!!!
"What happened !!! where did she go?" he asked the DEVil

"well this was just the Demo Version, sorry!" the Devil replied
"


let us keep the Billy's gates closed ...

those are the Gates of Hell ...

johnc
07-01-2002, 03:29 PM
...I think you ARE on crack. Either that you don't just smoke weed at parties.:D

golfinguy4
07-01-2002, 10:11 PM
Personally, I like C# better than VB. I have never programmed extensively in either; it is just that c# doesn't seem as ugly. Although it is effective, you all have to admit that VB is UGLY.

borko_b
07-02-2002, 04:23 AM
>>...crack...

Say what you want...

this won't make the VB a real language...
it will be forever a language for kiddies and bussinesmen...
(and obviously it is a language for you...
but i don't think you are a bussinesmen... if you were , you wouldn't have time to post on forums ... you know time is money )

so grow up kid and use REAL languages...

TK
07-02-2002, 04:36 AM
The thing that you have to remember is that Win32 is an interface. It is implemented in C, in such a way that it is object based, kind of like C made to act like C++. The Win32 interfaces is the system interface. That means that the Win32 subsystems are delegated all of the processes. This means that if you are using the Microsoft operating system than all of your programs are C at the lowest level, C and some ASM. All of your VB applications make calls to C function libraries, that's why I don't understand the arguement that would define VB as more efficent and powerful than C. Microsoft has said that VB is a rapid application development language, it is very easy to construct basic windows applications as well as some other types of applications. I mentioned that VB doesn't exist anymore because it doesn't. The VB in VB.net is a subset of the .net intermediate language. Mind that .net is a middleware component written in C++.

billholm
07-02-2002, 04:47 AM
I am an avid fan C and C++ but I don't see why people hate VB so much. I haven't programmed in VB before (but I do know a little of QBasic) but for producing useful non-technical applications VB is more sensible than either C or C++.

One year ago I hated VB too, but after looking at the program made by my Numerical Methods professor, I realized VB wasn't so bad after all. The electrical power company in my area has used VB programs to track down the breakdowns of power transmission lines, and for controlling electrical turbines too. Guess what, those VB programs even made Fortran look puny.

TK
07-02-2002, 05:15 AM
It's history and the only thing that survived is some of the syntax, not all of it. Most of it was not expressive enough.

ober
07-02-2002, 06:06 AM
Look, the point remains that VB is just as entrenched in a lot of businesses the same way that C or Java is. You really can't beat the speed that you can make an App with in VB. I've only been programming with VB for about 4 months total and I've already turned out over 8 decent (some quite complicated) applications that have saved time, money, and manpower.

You just can't compete with the results. Granted, I could do somethings more easily in C, but the ease and speed at which I can create apps in VB is tremendous.

TK
07-02-2002, 07:09 AM
Sure, the same is true with Microsofts prefabricated and convoluted C++. You can also churn out windows apps quickly with MFC or even strait Win32 GDI.

You should learn .net however because it is more powerful than VB (it has more advanced language features), and you can use VB.net which has similar syntax with VB6. It seems that Microsoft who owns VB has invested their future in .net. The only unmanaged language that survived VS7 (also known as Visual Studio.net) is standard C++, ofcourse you can also use managed C++ (C++.net). That right there should tell you something about VB6. It's gone as soon as you get the new visual studio, in other words, VB was C.

Govtcheez
07-02-2002, 07:11 AM
> It's gone as soon as you get the new visual studio, in other words, VB was C.

Come again?

ober
07-02-2002, 07:18 AM
>It's gone as soon as you get the new visual studio, in other words, VB was C.

Do you know what you're talking about or are you just spewing forth pure **** for our amusement? :D

nvoigt
07-02-2002, 07:38 AM
borko, once you are in the business of programming for money, you will see that sometimes VB is inevitable as time is money and VB shortens the development time for GUI intensive programs by more than half.

I like VB as much as I like dentists appointments, but both are a neccessary evil in the real world.

borko_b
07-02-2002, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by nvoigt
borko, once you are in the business of programming for money, you will see that sometimes VB is inevitable as time is money and VB shortens the development time for GUI intensive programs by more than half.

I like VB as much as I like dentists appointments, but both are a neccessary evil in the real world.

>>...programming for money...
Look, I don't say that VB has no place in the world ... the fact that it stays on the shelves shows that there are peolpe that use it (bussinessmen).
BUT again I ASK... IS there in the world a succesfull comercial project that IS made WITH VB?? (comercial programs are programming for money right?)


>>...neccessary evil in the real world...
there is no *neccessary* evil... there is just Evil
(dentists are not devils by the way :) afterall they help people )

I think that Java and MFC beat the VB in terms of RAD...
the only think that you all say is that GUI is made faster in VB ,

Well Prove it please...
choose:

1. a text Editor like Notepad and post it here to see how fast is made in VB

2. a Browser ....

3. a Window + menu + "Hello World" string in front of it...

4. a dialog with 2 buttons "OK" and "CANCEL"

ober
07-02-2002, 09:43 AM
>>BUT again I ASK... IS there in the world a succesfull comercial project that IS made WITH VB?? (comercial programs are programming for money right?)

You're joking right? allow me to start with my own company.. our entire dispatch center is running software built with VB and embedded SQL.

Your statement/question doesn't really make any sense.

DavidP
07-02-2002, 10:52 AM
>VB is interpreted language

no...

first of all its not a language at all....BASIC is the language...come on people, get it right...VB is just the compiler..

second of all, Visual Basic CAN make executables...i do it all the time. so dont say it cant. and yes, they are standalone. if u cant then somethin is wrong with your Visual Basic compiler.

moemen ahmed
07-02-2002, 12:02 PM
hey guys ur overloading this topic..........:)
in fact I can tell(as I was programming basic since 12 years ) that Current VB language is great as a RAPID PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE !!!!!! u can use it to establish you GUI very easy and very quick......it supports u with many many nice and effective tools to make an application that support database and internet beside many desktop functions and its great for commercial programming (with some bad points in fact).......
so dont put over it more than it could carry.its great just for what was it made for............

on the counter c++ is A GENERAL PURPOSE LANGUAGE and its totally different thing ,so it can handle low level programming and give high accessebility to hardware beside performming non-windows related programming...and thats why it was made for

so I know VB and C++.......if I can Make it in VB ill not make it in C++ as VB is much easier and much more maintainable than C++

nvoigt
07-02-2002, 12:24 PM
1. a text Editor like Notepad and post it here to see how fast is made in VB
2. a Browser ....
3. a Window + menu + "Hello World" string in front of it...
4. a dialog with 2 buttons "OK" and "CANCEL"



Probably as fast as in MFC. But that's not what I call GUI intensive programs. Take TabControls, a pain in the #ss in MFC. Take a simple textbox... changing the font and color of it in VB is as difficult as selecting the font from a combobox and the color from a list. In MFC it isn't even possible without coding.

Lets see how fast you can do this in MFC:

Create a Tab-Control that shows a textbox each, one green on blue in Times new Roman, the other white on red in Arial.

Not a single line of code in VB, all by selecting properties in a property editor in the IDE. Probably two dozen clicks compared to at least a dozen clicks and 25 lines of code ( 10 if it's ugly ) in MFC.
That is if you know what do do in MFC, because it's all but intuitive to people without inside knowledge. And you shouldn't need profound coding knowledge to change a textbox to pink.

You are right, there are few programs on the shelves that use VB. But that doesn't mean professional programs aren't developed in VB... it's just that 90% of these are inhouse products.

I don't like VB, and with the advent of C#, it will hopefully die, but it did have a use and is still used by those that don't have C# yet.

ober
07-02-2002, 12:35 PM
one simple fact will prove my point that VB is widely used:

members here: ~4265
members at vbforums.com: 31,940

posts on the general vb board: ~108,000
posts on the c/c++ board there: ~3930

hell... posts between here and there involving c: ~17,000

Still doesn't come close to the VB board...

:p

moemen ahmed
07-02-2002, 01:25 PM
on the counter of the idea which u said, that VB ll be omitted because of C#.........VB ll stay alive for a long time coming, not because of anything , just because its really the most popular programming language(this doesnt mean its the best of course)
the wide range of ppl using VB ll protect it from getting dead

and if we imagine that microsoft ll not support it once( such thing isnt even an idea for the future for micosoft right now ) they ll keep support it for long years as a step to get it away

borko_b
07-02-2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by ober5861

You're joking right? allow me to start with my own company.. our entire dispatch center is running software built with VB and embedded SQL.


by *comercial project* i mean a comercial PROGRAM.
like :

InternetExplorer
Abode PhotoShop
AbsoluteFTP

And so on.
is your "dispatch center" such a "program" ?
or is it some service program
Do you sell it for money? or you're selling the services WITH this program...
Anyways..
(Your company should benefit from Java, Java2 much more, than VB and so on..)



>>first of all its not a language at all....BASIC is the
>>language...come
>>on people, get it right...VB is just the
>>compiler..

I and many others allready understood that...
don't repeat it again please...

>>members here: ~4265
>>members at vbforums.com: 31,940

Yeah ... too many *bussinessmen* and kiddies asking how to find a substring in a string... Give me a break!

>>...VB ll stay alive for a long time coming...
Yes. because there is Microsoft to proclamate it...
Cut the Daddy's fundings and the Son will die in a minute...


And stop talking about RAD please
the RAD is the worst thing that could a programmer rely on..
RAD applications are buggy and over-bloated...

the good design of software rely much more on money invested in , good communications between teams
and ofcource the programming teams themselves
time is relative thing ...
Large scale projects do not come out quickly ...
people are wasting much more time designing the features,marketing ,customer support, etc,etc. than the program itself.

Lets debate on the language syntax
1. How is the modularity supported in VB?
2. How is the data-hiding mechanism implemented in VB ?
(statics, local, global variables)

3. How is the OOP model supported ?
3.1 How Does it support classes ?
3.2 Are there interfaces in VB ? (virtual func's and etc)
3.3 Does it support multiple inheritance?

and Is it easier to make OO design in VB than Java or C++

XenoCodex Admin
07-02-2002, 06:47 PM
To add to Ober561's point:

On the VB Explorer forums, there are about 100,000 members.

I've been programming in VB for about 10 years. Though I like what I've learned so far in C, I find that VB still has it's merrits...

Take for instance, VBA (a rather crude version of VB). I build databases for a living. Out of all the guys I work with, I am the only one that writes code behind my database, all the others use Wizards to create a generic database with queries and such.

As far as commercial software, Forte is an example. The company I work for is a health insurance company. They use a Forte application to allow our Customer Service reps. the ability to browse and modify our member information... this application was written entirely in VB (with the exception of a handful of components that were written in Java).

The only drawback I see with VB is that you are required to distribute 6 basic .dll files with your application (unless the target machine already has them) whereas with C, you only need to distribute a .dll if you use something that is not native to Windows.

Believe it or not, some of the stuff you get from Microsoft is VB dependent... next time you install a Microsoft product, watch the installation and see if it installs MSVBM60.dll - that is one of the main VB redistributables.

Even better, delete this file from your Windows directory... and see which applications you have no longer run...

ober
07-03-2002, 05:53 AM
borko_b......

*sigh*... you're a moron... there... a simple, no beating around the bushes flame... you're a freakin moron.

borko_b
07-03-2002, 01:30 PM
>>... you're a moron...

What the hell do you think you ARE ?? huh!

...retard...

nvoigt
07-03-2002, 02:09 PM
>Do you sell it for money? or you're selling the services WITH this program...

We have programs that are written in VB. They are used daily and generate income. So I guess it is a commercial language.

>And stop talking about RAD please
>the RAD is the worst thing that could a programmer rely on..

Agreed. But sadly, programmers are paid for results, not for good practices. And in real life, time is money and RAD is less time to pay for. So RAD is a very big deal in the business world and should be taken into account when judging the commercial value of something.

You still have to show how easy and fast you would implement my example in MFC...

borko_b
07-03-2002, 02:18 PM
>>....my example ....
Ermm.. Which example... Sorry..

(the one with the tabs?)