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DavidP
06-17-2002, 09:13 PM
you know how many plants have to DIE just for a simple SALAD!?!?!??! It's an outrage!

hehehe....i just thought I would say that as kind of something to stump the vegetarians who are against killing animals. :D

i dont really mean it...its a joke....so dont start debating over it....

hehehe....its funny...

SilentStrike
06-17-2002, 09:20 PM
Somewhat funny but highly offensive bumper sticker...

Save a cow, eat a vegetarian.

lightatdawn
06-17-2002, 09:49 PM
Sticker on my wall: Vegetarian: Indian word for bad hunter. :D

>>something to stump the vegetarians who are against killing animals.

For the record (again), I dont have a problem with killing animals. Its natural. I have issues with the incredibly disgusting methods used to do so, and the even more abhorant conditions in which many of them are grown. There are lots of reasons for not eating meat; Feeling sorry for a cow isnt one of mine. Animals eat animals to survive. I just dont agree with the way we do it and I dont like the waste of resources to grown them while so many starve.

adrianxw
06-18-2002, 12:04 AM
Another incidious trend is the genetic fiddling with vegetables. I have a friend in England who tells me that fish genes have been added to certain tomatoes to stop them going soft. She will not eat them any more, (she is a vegan), because they are not "vegetables".

I do not believe we know enough about the effects of genetic manipulation to be blindly planting fields full of GM crops.

hostensteffa
06-18-2002, 12:47 AM
I saw a cool shirt once that said "How Many tomoatoes died for your salad"

novacain
06-18-2002, 01:10 AM
>>I do not believe we know enough about the effects of genetic manipulation to be blindly planting fields full of GM crops.

I agree. Most are geneticly programmed for their offspring to be non viable, the termination gene as it was known. What if that gets out into the native crops? Read the book 'Death of Grass'?

Recent trials here failed to check for regrowth, spreading and the area of contamination was grossly underestimated. The pollen contaminated crops over ten km away. One farmer who was certified organic and GM free is now suing because he lost his GM free status due to these pollens carried from a test site. The test sites here in Aust, are not disclosed after the protestors in the UK destroyed some fields.

Monsanto is trying to get its GM soya bean (and other products) into Aust. Needs to increase the allowable pesticide resididue by 300%. (As the pollen of the plant contains a pesticide) In the states there is no divide as to GM or non GM soya.

Flounder genes are added to vegies and fruit (strawberries are one I know of) to stop them freezing.
Pity if you are allergic to seafood!

vasanth
06-18-2002, 05:32 AM
>> Sticker on my wall: Vegetarian: Indian word for bad hunter.

Well thats a big misconception in every ones mind that Indians and Hindus dont eat meet.. I am a Hindu and my cast allows me to eat meet... The religion Hindu has many castes around 600 and odd and each one is completely different from each other in terms of habbits etc etc.. So it is just a portion of these who do not eat meet.. but almost all Hindus dont eat cow because it is considered as a holy animal....

DrakkenKorin
06-18-2002, 06:56 AM
vasanth - I thought the caste system was done away with in India. At least that is what we were told when I was taking my Cultural Anthroplogy class last year.

Was it "officially" done away with (i.e. gov't says no more caste system, but does not interfere w/those who are still participating/practicing/etc. in a caste system.)

RobR
06-18-2002, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by vasanth
>> Sticker on my wall: Vegetarian: Indian word for bad hunter.

Well thats a big misconception in every ones mind that Indians and Hindus dont eat meet.. I am a Hindu and my cast allows me to eat meet... The religion Hindu has many castes around 600 and odd and each one is completely different from each other in terms of habbits etc etc.. So it is just a portion of these who do not eat meet.. but almost all Hindus dont eat cow because it is considered as a holy animal....

Errrr..... I think he was talking "Native American".

lightatdawn
06-18-2002, 10:13 AM
It has nothing to do with Indians, really. Does nobody get it?

RobR
06-18-2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by lightatdawn
It has nothing to do with Indians, really. Does nobody get it?

Chill out!:D I was just explaining that there was a misconception.

vasanth
06-18-2002, 10:44 AM
>>vasanth - I thought the caste system was done away with in >>India. At least that is what we were told when I was taking my >>Cultural Anthroplogy class last year.
>>
>>Was it "officially" done away with (i.e. gov't says no more >>caste system, but does not interfere w/those who are still >>participating/practicing/etc. in a caste system.)
>>


Well the government does not have anything to do witht his... India and Hindus are made up of different communities which have their own sect god, temple etc etc... No one makes fun of other communities or castes etc etc.. But people of different sect or caste have their own tradition and habbits....

DavidP
06-18-2002, 11:56 AM
people, he was talking about Native Americans when he said Indians....not Indians that are from India...

RobR
06-18-2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by DavidP
people, he was talking about Native Americans when he said Indians....not Indians that are from India...

Is there an echo in here??

SilentStrike
06-18-2002, 03:43 PM
I understand. The quote actually implies that Indians are meat eaters, and the only ones who don't eat meat are the ones who can't kill animals.

NinetyFourGirl
06-18-2002, 04:08 PM
I think that genetically modified foods are a great mistake. Scientists have genetically modified canola plants to be herbicide resistant so that they can spray for weeds without killing the plants. But what's going to happen when they get cross-pollinated with other plants? The herbicide resistant gene could spread easily.

I also think it's comical how city folks say "grow a cow" instead of "raise a cow." Just thought I'd mention that. :rolleyes:

lightatdawn
06-18-2002, 04:41 PM
>>I also think it's comical how city folks say "grow a cow" instead of "raise a cow."

You've got me all wrong. ;) I'm far from "city folk". I said grow on purpose. I was alluding to the manner which some (most?) farmers treat their stock. Killing something and eating it is one thing and is fine IMO. Torturing a creature for the entire duration of its life before a mangled attempt at killing it is not something I'd like to take part in. Unlike some vegetarians, its not a religion to me that I feel obliged to force upon anyone else. I'm happy with my decisions and see nothing wrong with other peoples.

>>Flounder genes are added to vegies and fruit

I'd just like to point out that this is not as bad as some people think. Its just genes that are found in flounder. Its not like theres actual fish chunks in yer apple.

I'm not convinced that enough study has been done on the subject but I'm also not adverse to this kind of experimentation. We're not exactly putting lead in the cayenne here. I'm pretty sure fish genes mixed with my tomatoes isnt going to poison me. Its mainly a media overreaction due to insufficient understanding on their part.

Commander
06-18-2002, 07:47 PM
I haven't read anything expect the sub, and this looks like a vegetarians' thread!!!!!! wrong place, sorry... i don't belong here
*Runs as fast as humanly possible*

Unregistered
06-18-2002, 08:36 PM
it has been scientifically proven that vegetables can fell pain... infact when they have mildew they litteraly shreak in pain...

not a joke by the way... read up on it :p

adrianxw
06-19-2002, 12:08 AM
LightAtDawn:

>>> Its just genes that are found in flounder.

Is it not the genes within the flounder that define what a flounder is - i.e. a fish, not a tomato?

>>> I'm also not adverse to this kind of experimentation.

I am not opposed to experimentation at all. What concerns me, is the rampant, profit lead race to get these things into peoples fields before the possibilities of crosspollination causes the new genes to "escape" into the feral population. There are several documented cases where this has been shown to have happened.

The fish gene is not IMHO the big problem, (unless fruit and things start tasting like fish - OMG!), but the herbicide resistance and the "suicide" genes, amongst others, worry me.

dirkduck
06-19-2002, 02:19 AM
Am I the only vegetarian here?

Betazep
06-19-2002, 04:14 AM
"It's not that I dislike eating animals, I just really hate plants."

Clyde
06-19-2002, 06:01 AM
"it has been scientifically proven that vegetables can fell pain... "

..... i think not. I know what you are talking about, but it does not in any shape or form prove that plants "feel" pain.

lightatdawn
06-19-2002, 11:54 AM
>>Is it not the genes within the flounder that define what a flounder is - i.e. a fish, not a tomato?

It is. But in this instance only a single gene is used. The same gene can be found in many sources. It is only the combination of multiple genes that causes any recognisable form.


>>new genes to "escape" into the feral population. There are several documented cases

Yes, I've read about these and I am a little uneasy about that. There are however "backups" if you will or genetic origionals stored in vaults across the world (theres a very large on in asia somewhere I believe). This kind of thing ensures that in the possible event of something going horribly wrong such as the "suicide" gene becoming rampant and destroying whole species, the species could be recovered from the genetic origional.

Humans have been crossing plants since recorded history. Its only recently that we've been able to speed up and greatly increase the accuracy and precision of this process. Since most of the GM foods are essentially just 'cross bred' with other plants of a simular nature, we're only seeing something that we've done 10000 times before, done with a more exact tool.

I'm not 100% pro-GM, as I'm slightly skeptical by nature of anything anybody tries to push on me (ulterior motives are common place in business) but the science of it seems harmles enough. As I said before, its mainly just an advanced tool for a very old job.

Govtcheez
06-19-2002, 11:58 AM
YUm - Tomacco..... :D

Anyways - I'm curious - have there been any recorded incidents of GM crops turning out really bad and causing cancer or something like that? That's one of the common arguments against it I hear (probably because "It'll give you cancer" is the warcry against most technological improvements that change everyday things), but I've never heard of it actually happening....

Unregistered
06-19-2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Clyde
"it has been scientifically proven that vegetables can fell pain... "

..... i think not. I know what you are talking about, but it does not in any shape or form prove that plants "feel" pain.

wanna bet?


Something startling has been discovered by Dr. Bill Williams, a botanist at The Helvetica Institute. If his preliminary findings turn out to be true, they will prove that killing plants for food is no less cruel than killing animals for food. "Plants are aware," says Dr. Williams, "and they feel pain!"
Dr. Williams, and his team were doing experiments on talking to plants. He had set out to prove that this helped them only because it blows carbon dioxide over their leaves. He had one team speak lovingly to the plants, and another threaten and verbally abuse them. To the surprise of all involved, the plants that were lovingly spoken to thrived, producing large, lovely flowers. Their growth rates were off the charts! The plants that were verbally abused and threatened never bloomed. Some even withered and died.
His team then connected EEG electrodes to several plants, and measured their responses to various stimuli. "They definitely felt it when we pricked them with needles. One of my staff even burned one with a lighter. Not only did it's EEG go off the charts, but so did every plant in the same room!"
Dr. Williams is submitting his findings to other scientists for further review. He told me that plants not only seem to be aware and to feel pain, it looks like they can even communicate. They may even be sentient beings. He told me, "I hadn't thought of it until now, but how does a fruit tree know how to make a sweet attractive fruit that animals will eat when it drops off, and spread the seeds? How do flowers know how to attract bees with sweet, fragrant nectar, and get their pollen spread about, assuring a next generation? They may be doing this consciously!"

source: cnn archives

The recent flurry of homicidal vegan insanity inspired me to have a big fat juicy rare steak for dinner tonight, with mushrooms fried in lots of nice butter.

death to the crazy people!

-KEN-
06-19-2002, 01:59 PM
>>YUm - Tomacco.....

That was plutonium, jackass! :p


>>Anyways - I'm curious - have there been any recorded incidents of GM crops turning out really bad and causing cancer or something like that? That's one of the common arguments against it I hear (probably because "It'll give you cancer" is the warcry against most technological improvements that change everyday things), but I've never heard of it actually happening....<<

Well duh, everything gives you cancer...according to my mom, it's the microwave, cell phones, fruits that aren't washed thoroughly, GM crops, etc...but of course she also believed it when her friend told her that sucking on straws gives you wrinkles "But they use the same sucking motion!" "Uh sure mom, whatever you say...just by the by, have you ever heard of 'elastin'? Just wondering" :rolleyes:

lostminds
06-19-2002, 02:12 PM
Listen up brothers and sisters
come hear my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature trapped in the dirt like a jail
vegetables live in oppresion served on our tables each night
this killing of veggies is madness I say we take up the fight

(chorus)
Salads are only for murderers
coleslaws a facist regime
Don't think that they don't have fealings
just cause a radish can't scream

I've heard the screams of the vegetables (screams, screams, screams)
Watching their skins being pealed (having their insides revealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories)
How do you think that feels? (that it hurts really bad)

Carrot Juice constitutes murder (cause thats all it is)
Green House is a prison for slaves (let my vegetables go)
Its time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell)
lets call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade)

(/chorus)

I saw a man eating celery so I beat him black and blue
If he ever touches a sprout again I'll bite him clean in two
I'm a political prisoner trapped in a windowless cage
Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips by killing five men in a rage
I told the judge when he sentenced me this is my finest hour
I'd kill those farmers again just to save one more cauliflower

(chorus again)

How low do people believe theres a stew making young brocili bleed in the soup
(can't quite remember the above line)
Untie your beans,unpave your tomato, let potted plants free, don't mash that potato oh oh

(chorus again)

Clyde
06-19-2002, 04:15 PM
"wanna bet? "

Ok

"If his preliminary findings turn out to be true,"

hmm, looks like i've already won.

Anyway, a single crack-pot does not constitude scientific proof. The fact is that you inherantly CANNOT prove, or even find out, whether or not any organisms "feel" anything. You can show that they react to a given stimulus, you can show the mechanism by which they do so, but at present that's about it.

The fact that plants don't really have a nervous system, and lack a brain, means that most scientists consider the idea of plants "feeling" anything to be fairly preposterous.

novacain
06-19-2002, 09:23 PM
>>Since most of the GM foods are essentially just 'cross bred' with other plants of a simular nature, we're only seeing something that we've done 10000 times before, done with a more exact tool.

I'll have to watch out for that Flounder doing rude things to the strawberries in my vegi patch. Or the bottle of pesticide with my Canola (as it was known Rape seed).

Basically genes are codes to make protiens. There is a risk that the new combination of protiens will be harmful. More likely is allergic reactions, which can prove to be fatal.

As said before the problem is not with the GM idea, but the lack of control in testing and of information to the consumer.

I just want the choice to buy/eat these GM foods or not.

adrianxw
06-20-2002, 12:19 AM
LightAtDawn:

>>> But in this instance only a single gene is used.

One has to start somewhere!

>>> There are however "backups"

Even if that were true, (which I doubt), what you would have to do is make sure all traces of the errant gene were destroyed from the environment before you could introduce the clean stock, otherwise the same things would happen again. How do you/they/them/whatever propose to do this? What plants/animals are carrying but not expressing the gene? Scorched Earth policy?

>>> been crossing plants since recorded history.

Very true.

>>> we're only seeing something that we've done 10000 times before,

Not true. When crossing plants, the species involved have to be moderately closely related for the crossing to produce a viable result. Yes, you can pollinate a lupin with another lupin, but how would you begin to "cross" a tomato with a flounder? (Answers to alt.sex.tomatoes!)

Novacain:

>>> I just want the choice to buy/eat these GM foods or not.

Me too, however, in a recent BBC survey, 40% of samples tested for GM soya in "Non GM" labelled foodstuffs contained markers for GM. It is thought that some of it arrived simply by unscrupulous people falsely labelling their raw materials, however, this did not account for all cases, and it is suspected that the markers arose as a result of cross pollination of non GM crops from GM sites.

novacain
06-20-2002, 03:06 AM
>>40% of samples tested for GM soya in "Non GM" labelled foodstuffs contained markers for GM.

Here there was uproar as the trial GM seed was 'mistakenly' added to non GM and used. Not only that there was some that went out as seed.

Remember the 'termination' gene is just so the farmer can't grow from seed. They must purchase new seed each year from the GM company.

If you don't believe that this could get out of hand, look at the problems we are having with antibiotic resistant microbes ie forms of Golden Staff, strepticocci aureas (sp?) . They are very hard to get rid off once the hospital / patient gets infected.