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sean
06-09-2002, 09:56 PM
What's with the anti-America posts? I don't see a whole lot of posts saying we should go over and bomb Afhghanistan. I see a lot saying Osama Bin Laden should be caught but I agree with that - he killed over 6,000 people and destoryed the economic center of the world over politics. But how many people have actually lived in both countries. If there is one person on this board who has lived on both sides and seen fiorst hand the changes - post something here and you can post all the anti-America stuff you want. But if you haven't, what makes you qualified? I'd like to know.

Scourfish
06-09-2002, 10:19 PM
Amen, mah G- Slice!

Actually, this issue of hating America was best shown on the Osama bin Laden edition of South Park.

As for those of you who seem born with this innate hatred of Uncle Sam and it's people; you're all a bunch of ****ing racists, and therefore no better than the Ku Klux Klan, the Nazis, or the white South Africans who imposed "Apartheid" on the country, or the Americans who passed the "Jim Crow" and segregation laws. Your rants make the world dumber, less tolerant, and overall a poopy place to live in. You criticize our American institutions such as McDonalds in your country, and even go so far as to threaten to burn them down (I'm looking your way, france), and you criticize our politics, and even our way of life; well maybe it's time you learned some new concepts such as tolerance, understanding, and the fact that not everybody likes to eat snails (looking your way again, france), as they will replace the obselete ignorance and blind hate. Hell, I learned all of this back in the second grade, so how's that for our so called "bad educational institutions?" I've yet to see most of you learn this

As for those of you in small countries who claim that you are the victim by us somehow, you make an awful lot of whining about it. For example, at my lovely job where I am a wage slave, I would much rather address the complaints of customers who have a cool attitude and understand that mistakes happen, rather than the cock that is *****ing to the manager for a rain check because we don't have enough of *item on the shelf* left to satisfy shopping needs. (On a tangent, what is the hell is up with "don't smash the bread?" People say it in a way that implies that my first ****ing intention was to throw twenty pounds of frozen meat on top of their single loaf!)

Unregistered
06-10-2002, 12:29 AM
"well maybe it's time you learned some new concepts such as tolerance, understanding, "

That's rich.

The lack of those two qualities is why so many dislike the US. The US will not tolerate anything which is not in the US mould, and understands nothing that is different from US expectations.

You don't see the US "tolerating and understanding" anything that threatens US interests of whatever nature, "security" is the latest, but substitute "business", "wealth", "standard of living" or any of a dozen other things.

Zeeshan
06-10-2002, 07:05 AM
Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
- Bush

Commander
06-10-2002, 07:49 AM
BURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

-KEN-
06-10-2002, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Zeeshan

- Bush

Perhaps it's a good time to mention that it was a publicity ploy. That's what every american wanted to hear at the moment of great anger. Actually, come to think of it, that was incredibly stupid...like adding gasoline to a raging fire. Oh well, Bush is an idiot. I still like him more than Al Gore, though :rolleyes:.

>>The lack of those two qualities is why so many dislike the US. The US will not tolerate anything which is not in the US mould, and understands nothing that is different from US expectations.

You don't see the US "tolerating and understanding" anything that threatens US interests of whatever nature, "security" is the latest, but substitute "business", "wealth", "standard of living" or any of a dozen other things.<<

Oh come off it.

Scourfish
06-10-2002, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered

That's rich.

The lack of those two qualities is why so many dislike the US. The US will not tolerate anything which is not in the US mould, and understands nothing that is different from US expectations.

You don't see the US "tolerating and understanding" anything that threatens US interests of whatever nature, "security" is the latest, but substitute "business", "wealth", "standard of living" or any of a dozen other things.

Well if you put it that way, then what you're saying is that the United States is the cause of every major humanitarian problem in history. The fall of Rome; the work of the US. The ploy to get India addicted to Opium and then create a demand for the stuff and jack prices up, causing a war; the United States. The Imprisonment of Gallileo, the Spanish Inquisition, the Martin Luther's diet of worms caused by religious discrimination; the United States. If you say it that way, then maybe you should look out the window, as your homeland might posess one of the "great satans" also. Riddle me this too: 90% of all the foreign people I've met have snubbed my hand when I greeted them, and did so with a pitiful sneer.

As for that "business", "wealth", and "standard of living" statement, it's called capitalism, live with it, you don't have to do trade with us. Just look at the Japanese, they screw over anybody trying to export to their country.

"He who has never sinned shall cast the first stone" is what some religious guy once said.

sean
06-10-2002, 11:39 AM
Sure that's what every American wanted to hear. But it's true. If you're with America, then what happened was wrong. DUH. YOu don't go slam into buildings with airliners and kill thousands of people. If you're not with America, you think it was right. Isn't that what the terrorists thought?

Unregistered
06-10-2002, 11:53 AM
"every major humanitarian problem in history"

I didn't say that, you did. Of course the US is not the course of everything - I said, one reason so many people get fed up with the US is the insular, hypocritical self interest they exhibit in there deelings with the rest of the world. Kyoto? No, may damage the standard of living in the US, heavens, we may have to drive more energy efficient cars, whatever next?

"As for that "business", "wealth", and "standard of living" statement, it's called capitalism,"

Hmm, another example, and as you comment on Japan, you may like to loog at the list of countries supporting the EU...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_2036000/2036010.stm

Shiro
06-10-2002, 12:29 PM
>Perhaps it's a good time to mention that it was a publicity ploy.
>That's what every american wanted to hear at the moment of
>great anger.

Yes, I can understand that reaction, but one can wonder if it is right to play with people's emotions. Which it is, they knew how people felt and used that. Such is always very dangerous.

>If you're with America, then what happened was wrong. DUH.
>YOu don't go slam into buildings with airliners and kill thousands
>of people. If you're not with America, you think it was right. Isn't
>that what the terrorists thought?

I don't know what such people think, I can imagine that the Arabic people back home think such. But I'm sure the terrorists themselves, Bin Laden in special, think a level higher. This is just one step in a process, which is setting up the Arabic world against the western world.

>Kyoto? No, may damage the standard of living in the US,
>heavens, we may have to drive more energy efficient cars,
>whatever next?

It are the big companies which have strong influence on politics. Also in Europe we have that problem. Just take the example of the Waddensea, a national park, in the Netherlands. The former government blocked gaining oil and gas in the Waddensea, researchers found out that gaining oil and gas would have negative influence on the nature. But now, the current government has allowed gaining oil and gas on small scale. The oil and gas companies were laughing and having a party, I suspect them from having influenced the politics.

It are also the big companies who decide where work will be or not. If they remove large factories, then a lot of people will have no work, which means that the amount of money in a region will decrease a lot. If the government wants the factory to stay because of the work for the people, than it has to give the companies something in some way.

And there are many more examples of the companies influencing politics. So I wouldn't be surprised if the "No" of the US against Kyoto is an initiative of the big American companies.

Barjor
06-10-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Shiro


And there are many more examples of the companies influencing politics. So I wouldn't be surprised if the "No" of the US against Kyoto is an initiative of the big American companies.

Absolutly. Bush is a puppet, a marionette controlled by the corportate america. The Congress men and the Senators get there campaign funding from corporations. They will not bite the hand that is feeding them. I think it is pretty clear the democracy as it was intended doesn't work well in any part of the western world.

mike_k
06-10-2002, 01:13 PM
1. Screwing us over with "free trade"

At the same time as they're whining about us supposedly subsidising logging (which is false, and were fighting it in NAFTA and WTO) President Bush goes and gives billions of dollars to the already heavily subsidised farm industry. Meanwhile, California is passing legislation to penalise companies that make movies or commercials in Canada. At the same time, we're expected to allow oil pipelines to be built through our country to supply the US. In fact, the whole FTA was concocted by our "esteemed" former PM Brian Mulroney to give Americans unlimited access to the Candian economy even though under the GTA we already had free trade. This has resulted in the situation today where America owns 80% of Canadian industry. (And if you don't hink this was intentional, his reward is to sit on the boards of large american companies.) Included in NAFTA is a clause that prohibits any government from passing any law that would infringe on a company's profits. This includes banning potentially dangerous substances.

2. The "Cold Shoulder"

Canadians are always expected to do whatever the Americans say, after all, we don't want to be "against them". But as our reward, we get ignored. For example, in his post 11th speech, why did the president manage to thank just about every single nation except for canada? (Even though Canada was the nation who took the risk of more terrorism by accepting all the diverted flights.) Later, after an American pilot bombed and killed 4 Canadian soldiers and wounded dozens of others, this wasn't even worth mentioning except in passing for like two days.

3. Threats to Canadian Sovereignty

- In the cold war, American Lieutenants would take command of Canadian military bases in Canada when there was threat of war.

- The "National Treatment Clause" gives equal rights to American investors as canadian citizens.

- "The day the FTA was signed on October 3, 1987, U.S. trade representative Clayton Yeutter, let slip this observation. "We've signed a stunning new trade pact with Canada. The Canadians don't understand what they've signed. In twenty years, they will be sucked into the U.S. economy."

- Canada loses the ability to manage its own resources: "Sun Belt Water Corporation of California is suing us for US$1.5 to $10.5 billion because we won't let it sell our water for export. ", or of course, the softwood lumber.

ygfperson
06-10-2002, 02:24 PM
if canada wants to become more fully sovereign and in full control of itself, its citizens need to act more canadian. america is a melting pot; canada is a patchwork quilt. there was a vote for quebec to suceed from Canada and form its own nation. if a state in america did that we would not allow it.

american politics doesn't take into account other countries' needs. there is an assumption that we don't make an impact upon the world unless we want to. our government tries to back away from the world arena while our corporations are globalizing it. its a see-no-evil, hear-no-evil, and speak-no-evil relationship.

that's one of the problems. who can be held accountable for our corporations doing legitamite business? surely you can't prosecute every american corporation for doing business (and therefore, americanizing) with the world. it's assumed that mcdonalds will pay for its own mistakes, and intel corp will pay for its own mistakes, and so on.

american power keeps moving up because no one is willing to stop it. why does it matter that we're sucking up canada? we haven't militarily invaded canada. we haven't imposed economic sanctions; in fact, we're opening our markets to them. is it our fault that the sharing of cultures favors america?

foreign peoples hate us because our culture is extending everywhere. but what have they done to stop it? economic sanctions are costly and stifle people's rights. military power is not feasable, especially against a power our size.

capitalism shares cultures by sharing trinkets of that culture. who doesn't think of america when they see a pizza hut, burger of any kind, or a movie?

face it: americans like their culture. they thrive in it. being american is being competitive, outspoken, and free. when you exchange these cultural properties with canada's weird accent, lesser drug laws, and free medical care, which one looks like it's going to win? our culture is based on love of freedom, however distorted the real picture is. can you say something as strong about canada? india? germany? england? scotland? australia? italy? south africa?

our culture overpowers canada's culture because, simply, ours is stronger. say what you want about the supposed evils of this, but that isn't going to change anything.

Fountain
06-10-2002, 05:45 PM
oh man, again and again...give it a rest..

I am in Engggggeerland (sorry), and only have this -quite risque - thing to say....

I dont want to be/feel european(wtf is that anyway) and would be happy to have our country TOWED a couple of thousand miles west....say somewhere sunny like florida...than stick where we are....

your post in mind though, many in UK feel US citizens a bit hmmmm gullable shall we say, and sometimes a bit mad.

BUT...we (and I) would gladly carry on battering terrorists for the good of the world (or ourselves).


LEAVE the yanks alone I say

Unregistered
06-10-2002, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Sean
What's with the anti-America posts? I don't see a whole lot of posts saying we should go over and bomb Afhghanistan. I see a lot saying Osama Bin Laden should be caught but I agree with that - he killed over 6,000 people and destoryed the economic center of the world over politics. But how many people have actually lived in both countries. If there is one person on this board who has lived on both sides and seen fiorst hand the changes - post something here and you can post all the anti-America stuff you want. But if you haven't, what makes you qualified? I'd like to know.

i would like to remind you that the very same week in africa 7,000 people where killed during a massive mudslide... how many of you americans heard about this?

canada ownz
06-10-2002, 06:20 PM
we haven't imposed economic sanctions

what would you call the softwood lumber dutie increase?

novacain
06-10-2002, 09:16 PM
I don't know why I am responding to this. I am sick of arguing with 14 year olds who think they have seen the world. (And understand it)

>>If there is one person on this board who has lived on both sides and seen fiorst hand the changes

I donít think that anyone in Afghanistan has internet access and a working PC. Remember, we have dropped US$6.4bill of bombs on them killing thousands.

Try looking up the CIA papers into the USSR v's Afghanistan+US war. You might be shocked at what you find out. (I won't bother quoting as you will not believe me, look for yourself who armed and trained OBL)

>>you don't have to do trade with us.

We just have to live in the world where you pay your farmers to produce crops no one wants then dump them on the world market at 20% below production costs.

How do you think that affects world prices. What happens to subsistence farmers in developing countries when the cost of their major comodities drops below production?

We just have to live in the world where you refuse to modernise your manufacturing and heavy industries as it would cost money, pity it is costing the rest of us the environment.

We just have to live in the world where the US put protections including quotas, tariffs, export incentives and subsidies on your items then tell us, in Australia, off for having quarantine laws. Then Bush and 'Armbuster' (your free trade rep) go round bragging how for 'free trade you are'.

How do you think we feel when one month the US demands the use of our SAS for Afghanistan, our ports for your nuke shipping and then puts 30% tariff on our steel and stops us selling lamb, beef, sugar and wheat to the US with quotas?

Capitalism is the best product at the lowest price will survive the market forces.

The US is not capitalist, it is protectionist.

ygfperson
06-10-2002, 09:19 PM
The US is not capitalist, it is protectionist. what can you do about it?

Unregistered
06-10-2002, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by ygfperson
what can you do about it?

hmmmm i thinks its time for canada to place an export tax for oil & gas to the us now wouldnt that just be hilarious seeing bush squirm and talka bout drilling alaska and hearing all the moning and groaning about unfair trade practises

well wake up you subsidize your farmers and you protect your softwood industrie which might i remind you has lost its case 3 times in international court! but does the us listen? no the us thinks its above the law! the us's trade policy is hypocritical and goes completly against the "american" ideals

Scourfish
06-11-2002, 12:33 AM
While you go around claiming to be bullied by the Superpower of the world, you seem to spend most of your time like a preppy high school girl: whining your socks off.

Can I say that I agree with everything my country does? No. Still, I resent the fact that you call my part of the world a bad place. I live in that part of the world; I work to make the rent; I keep my part of the world a tolerant place. And then I get a bunch of random people to whom I personally have no quarrel with nor have I barely met who decide to ***** and moan about my land. Sometimes, it seems that some of you spend so much time focusing on our faults that you fail to see your own. For example, I was at the grocery checkout, and some Brit I was bagging groceries for called me a "stupid ****in american.*" Except for the white trash known as the "KKK", all of us were taught something known as respect, and we don't go around saying "that ****ing brit" or "those goddamned dutch." So don't say that "you hate america," 'cause that misrepresents me; It misrepresents my family, it misreperesents my friends. If you're going to get ........y about something, then don't give me this "America Sucks" caca. If you really need to rant, then why don't you state "I have a problem situation 'X' going on in America." Because saying that my whole country sucks means saying that I suck, and then it get's personal.







*So, afta dis here guy left da swapmeet, muh ma ****in homies Scott an' Big Mac took followed dis here guy into da parking lot an' preceded ta explain ta him dat we's don' personally hate him, so he don' gots ta unreasonably hate us. Afterwards, he sneered at me an' tried ta punch me. Still, I turned da other cheek an' left him. I hope one day he will see da truth about da human race as uh whole an' not just from uh racist mindset. Ya' dig?

adrianxw
06-11-2002, 02:34 AM
>>>
and we don't go around saying "that ****ing brit" or "those goddamned dutch."
<<<

You cannot know that, you can only state that you don't. In addition to my primary career, I have also worked behind the bar in pubs/bars at home, in England and Holland, and I can assure you that there are examples of the US citizen that fully fall into that category, and more than one.

-KEN-
06-11-2002, 07:46 AM
So how about we all just admit that it took all of this fighting with eachother to prove that there are stupid people on this planet.

Wow. The things you learn.

Sunny
06-11-2002, 10:06 AM
Sure a lot of ppl hate the US, and a lot of Us ppl hate the rest of the world. So what? We shoud remove all prejudices and see that in the end we are all part of a GLobal Community. White or Black, Red or Yellow we are all humans and interact with each other all the time.
After returning to the US from Africa, I was literally shocked at the high intensity of racism. America! Who should be a leading example to the world because it is entirely based on freedom and democracy and the so called tolerance...Do you peolpe think? It's is so easy to mutter out words and yell at each other, but about your lives...what do you do about it to improve each other and the world that surrounds it ?
Why don't you people wake up and smell the fresh coffe! What are the real problems that we are facing today? Global warming, for example. We are currently using 10 terrawats of energy to fuel this world. By the time our grandchildren will be born, the world will need about 30! Not 15, 19...30!!! What are we going to do? Keep goin on yapping at each other until this whole world turns into one big dump yard??? Hey, I'm not saying global warming is THE issue here. But, it would be nice if you'd open your eyes and see what's going on around you...


Jeeeessssh.

Stef

mike_k
06-11-2002, 10:23 AM
Speaking of racism...

How about putting our country's flag on the dressing room floor in the Olympics?

Shiro
06-11-2002, 11:54 AM
>What are the real problems that we are facing today? Global warming, for example.

Just another example. Thousands of people in Africa suffer each day from the aids, hunger and war. Each day hundreds, perhaps thousands, of little children in the world die because of the same reasons. That's a real problem.

mike_k
06-11-2002, 11:55 AM
You don't think 50,000 families in BC losing their jobs to American protectionism is a "real problem"?

novacain
06-11-2002, 09:52 PM
>>what can you do about it?

Its not my country that people want to destroy, bomb and terrorise.

Its not my country that has uneconomic industries that you the tax payer have to prop up.

Its not my countries tourists that will suffer, be descriminated against, be murdered or kidnapped.

Its not my country that will have to deal with the 225,000 children currently in the 2500 madrassahs (religious boarding schools) in China, Pakistan ect being taught that the Urdu letter jeem stands for jihad; tay for tope (cannon), kaaf for Kalashnikov and khay for khoon (blood).

It could be my country that evicts US spy bases (ie Pine Gap) destroying your network.

It could be my country that refuses your ships entry to our ports as New Zealand has.

It will be my country that takes the US to the WTO unless we get the free trade agreement we are seeking. (Don't pay attention to J Howard, his time is up, the lying little sycophant)



"What was more important in the world view of history, the Taliban or the fall of the Soviet empire? A few stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of central Europe and the end of the Cold War?"
former US secretary of state, Zbigniew Brezinski

Try explaining that to the survivors in New York and Washington.

Sentaku senshi
06-11-2002, 10:12 PM
>Try looking up the CIA papers into the USSR v's Afghanistan+US war. You might be shocked at what you find out. (I won't bother quoting as you will not believe me, look for yourself who armed and trained OBL)<

I knew that already it was a major topic on the news following 9/11. Saying that because we helped the afginistans fight against the soviet union and a few of them and start atacking the west were responsible. Who is responsible if you were to teach someone how to program and then they decided to use there information not for good but to create a viris that caused your computer to over heat?

Scourfish
06-11-2002, 11:12 PM
Aw come on, people, I know you all love me; besides, reading this would be helpful for everbody:

http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/hateamerica.html

Scourfish
06-11-2002, 11:30 PM
"If a person outside of American culture is a hateful person, they may actively hate and verbally attack America. If the person takes this to include a hatred of American's themselves, they are foolish and inconsiderate and have become a fool. If a person like this is brought up by people with vested interests in attacking America (and there are many), a person can be driven to take his opinions to a violent level. It is of utmost importance that we do not blame "Islam" or "Afghanistan" as a concept for the actions of such people, in the same way you would not blame all North American's because some American companies openly fund the IRA. Generic hatred is not solved or soothed by adding more layers of hatred."

-Vexen Crabtree

novacain
06-12-2002, 02:17 AM
>>Who is responsible if you were to teach someone how to program and then they decided to use there information not for good but to create a viris that caused your computer to over heat?

That is not the same. Teaching the clans 'commando' tactics and supplying them with stinger missiles ect is not standard help. Then refuse to give normal aid when the war on the USSR was over.

A closer example would be;
If I taught you how to smash a router into a default state to take contol of it, to spoof your IP and to send the required packets so you could perform DDDos attacks. In other words I gave you the skills to attack on the internet, then when you can serve no purpose I abandon you.

Then you use the knowledge against me or others, who is to blame then?

>>Generic hatred is not solved or soothed by adding more layers of hatred

Is it solved with US$6.4bill of bombs?

Sentaku senshi
06-12-2002, 05:26 AM
>That is not the same. Teaching the clans 'commando' tactics and supplying them with stinger missiles ect is not standard help. Then refuse to give normal aid when the war on the USSR was over.<
Of course we did give aid to IRAN witch led to them over throwing there goverment and holding a group of americans hostage (51 I belive) because we let there old ruler (that was pro-american) come into are country and died. Iran then invaded Iraq. We helped Iraq defeat iran. Sadum decided that since he was no more powerful then his neighbors attacked kuwait. This led to desert storm and troops being stationed in Sadia Aribia witch is why Bin Laden Hates us.

So basicly no matter what choice we make were wrong.


>A closer example would be;
If I taught you how to smash a router into a default state to take contol of it, to spoof your IP and to send the required packets so you could perform DDDos attacks. In other words I gave you the skills to attack on the internet, then when you can serve no purpose I abandon you.<

and I can choose how to use the skills.

>Then you use the knowledge against me or others, who is to blame then? <
Myself as I am ultimately responsible for my own actions.

Mario
06-12-2002, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Sentaku senshi
Myself as I am ultimately responsible for my own actions.

I see... then why attack Iraq? Why talking about an evil axis?

You people are funny...

Govtcheez
06-12-2002, 08:00 AM
> You don't think 50,000 families in BC losing their jobs to American protectionism is a "real problem"?

You don't think 50,000 families in the US losing their jobs to Mexico is a "real problem"? Let's all hate the Mexicans!

> You don't see the US "tolerating and understanding" anything that threatens US interests of whatever nature, "security" is the latest, but substitute "business", "wealth", "standard of living" or any of a dozen other things.

What the US gov't does and the US people do/want are two totally different things. Don't make this a personal fight, guys.

[EMOBA]
06-12-2002, 08:57 AM
There really isn't one person here who knows the truth (I'm not claiming that i do either)...you're only know what your media tells you, and it's extremely easy to sell newspapers to angry people wanting to justify their anger.

I really wish the US would isolate itself, but it seems every time we try we get blasted for that too. I'm tired of being cursed because i'm from the US. The world needs our crutch, our economy, yet it doesn't like the way that we keep our economy sound. What would happen to Canda if the oil industry in the US compelety collapsed? What if we stopped buying timber completely? What about water and the numerous other resources Canada provides?
What if stopped buying electronics from the East (unlikely, but possible if things get really bad). Everyone witnessed what happened to the world markets after the terrorist attacks. The world economy was uncertain about its future.

How many jobs would you lose then? sorry...

i'm pretty sure that if the situation was reversed, your countries would be doing the same, protecting it's own economic interests; however they're not in a position to do so effectively. I mean, yes, you can close your ports and you can impose tarriffs, but more than likely there's someone else who is going to fill the hole in the market. Everyone, no matter where they are from, wants a piece of the American dollar, and like it or not your standards of living are dependent on it in many ways...again, i'm sorry, but it seems that's the way it is.

Things change too, remember. Maybe if the US economy collapses, you people can move on with your lives and leave us alone...

Mario
06-12-2002, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by [EMOBA]
What would happen to Canda if the oil industry in the US compelety collapsed? What if we stopped buying timber completely? What about water and the numerous other resources Canada provides?
What if stopped buying electronics from the East (unlikely, but possible if things get really bad). Everyone witnessed what happened to the world markets after the terrorist attacks. The world economy was uncertain about its future.

If you study economics you'll quickly learn that in fact that's where US is definitly not the center of the world. US shares through brute force its space with world markets. So it's not uncommon to hear comparisons between say the European market and the US market, or the Asian market and the US market. But each one of these markets has the potential to disrupt the world market and consequently the American market. Don't be fooled to think US alone dictates the rules... cause it doesn't.

What would happen to Canada if US stopped buying timber from them? To answer that I would say not as bad as what would happen to US if the Canadian economy collapsed. You see... in economy, although there are strong and weak, the fact is that what makes a strong healthy country is its links to others, not really what they produce... take as an example a country like Angola (which is one, if not the most, rich country in the world in natural resources).

The fact that "world economy was uncertain about its future" as you said... that's newspaper hype. The world always knows where its heading. In fact way before last september the world economy was already facing a crisis... the attacks just gave it a boost. A couple of months (if my memory serves me right) after september a plane crashed against the pirelli building in Italy... immediatly the world markets resented that. As you see... There's not a "US center of the world" type of thing.

To end this and directly replying to what you asked "What if we stopped buying timber completely [from canada]". Canada would sell to someone else and meanwhile US would face a timber crisis which would surely reflect on other internal markets producing a chain reaction and eventually leading to an economical breakdown. Such is how economy works... next time think about your comparisons.

Mario
06-12-2002, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by [EMOBA]
Everyone, no matter where they are from, wants a piece of the American dollar, and like it or not your standards of living are dependent on it in many ways...again, i'm sorry, but it seems that's the way it is.

Again study a bit of economy... The statement above is ludicrous. For an economy to strive it is imperative that you transform foreign money into national money (usually by means of foreign investment)... so, for US to strive and make everyone "Want the American Dollar" is important for US to also want the European Euro, the English Pound, even the poor Angola Kwanza (had to look this one up)...

As you can see, again it's give and take... Now, next time you start feeling "i'm the center of the world", go to Wall Street and look around. It will humble you down to earth again.

mike_k
06-12-2002, 09:38 AM
"What would happen to Canda if the oil industry in the US compelety collapsed? What if we stopped buying timber completely? What about water and the numerous other resources Canada provides? "

Well for one, then maybe Canadian companies would actually invest in Canada to create more Canadian jobs etc. instead of the 80% of our profits that go to Americans.

Unregistered
06-12-2002, 11:55 AM
>>If you study economics you'll quickly learn that in fact that's where US is definitly not the center of the world. <<

i never said that it was the center of the world. I said the world uses our economy as a crutch. I meant that we are the largest consumer on the planet, and our consumer dollars support a large part of many economies including Canada's, Asia's, etc..

>>To end this and directly replying to what you asked "What if we stopped buying timber completely [from canada]". Canada would sell to someone else and meanwhile US would face a timber crisis which would surely reflect on other internal markets producing a chain reaction and eventually leading to an economical breakdown. Such is how economy works... next time think about your comparisons. <<

you're argument doesn't really make sense to me. I REALLY like how you tie the lack of Candian timber to a total US meltdown. That's rich. You know the US has loads of timber, right? In fact it's not really going anywhere because it's too expensive harvest here with Canadian timber on the market. Also, If Canda can sell to someone else, why can't we buy from someone else?

Anyway, i think that $10 billion dollars a year is a significant contribution to the Canadian economy, and it wouldn't be that easy to replace. The Timber industry in Canada depends on the US. Why do you think they're fighting the tariffs? They want our money. Why can't you admit that?

>>Again study a bit of economy... The statement above is ludicrous. For an economy to strive it is imperative that you transform foreign money into national money (usually by means of foreign investment)... so, for US to strive and make everyone "Want the American Dollar" is important for US to also want the European Euro, the English Pound, even the poor Angola Kwanza (had to look this one up)...<<

"Want the American Dollar" means to sell exported goods to the Americans. To take our money in a purchase. America exports very little to the rest of the world. Our economy thrives, yet much of our money flows out to the rest of the world, and less money (from buying American exports)flows in from other countries. My statements are restricted to the "America as the world's consumer" argument. Why don't you clarify your point? Maybe i'm missing it. it's not very clear.

I don't really know why you're so angry, but it's obvious you are. you're imposing your sterotypes about americans on me. I don't thing that the American economy is the "center of the world" nor do i wish it to be. I also know that the US economy is dependent on the health of other world markets. I didn't claim the contrary. While I'm no expert (you're not either, obviously), I understand the world economy is much more complicated than the rest of the world "sucking on the US' tits". That wasn't the point of my post, though you sure do want to make it so.

I say in my original post that things change, and i realize that the US as a world economic power is a relatively new thing, and it can and will change at anytime. When it does, i'm certain the world will move on. Nevertheless, in the present day, many countries including Canada depend on the US's purchasing power. The US is the the number one "purchaser" on the planet, and its absense would impact those countries who sell to it. That's all...

maybe next time you should take a deep breath and calm down before you reply.

Mario
06-12-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
I don't really know why you're so angry, but it's obvious you are. you're imposing your sterotypes about americans on me. I don't thing that the American economy is the "center of the world" nor do i wish it to be. I also know that the US economy is dependent on the health of other world markets. I didn't claim the contrary. While I'm no expert (you're not either, obviously), I understand the world economy is much more complicated than the rest of the world "sucking on the US' tits". That wasn't the point of my post, though you sure do want to make it so.
[...]
maybe next time you should take a deep breath and calm down before you reply.

Me angry? :)
Hehe... I don't get angry ever since my wife left me waiting 2 hours for her at a male gay party she insisted it would help me better understand the gay community. Trust me, all world problems got dim in comparison ever since.

Anyway... glad you asked. Just read your original post and come back to me again. Until you realize what you wrote was a stereotype, you will have little comprehension of why I choose to reply the manner I did...

As for my knowledge of economics and world economy... I have a degree. Sorry.

[EMOBA]
06-12-2002, 12:17 PM
>>Anyway... glad you asked. Just read your original post and come back to me again. Until you realize what you wrote was a stereotype, you will have little comprehension of why I choose to reply the manner I did... <<

i'm sorry i don't see it. If you can calmly explain you point to me , i would listen.

>>As for my knowledge of economics and world economy... I have a degree. Sorry.<<

No, i'm sorry. that was a low blow.

Scourfish
06-12-2002, 12:27 PM
And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears that your elders grew by,
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.

Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

-CS&N

adrianxw
06-12-2002, 12:31 PM
GovtCheez:

>>>
What the US gov't does and the US people do/want are two totally different things. Don't make this a personal fight, guys.
<<<

That's technically true of almost all nations, however, the US government is the, (cough splutter!), democratically elected voice of the people, (it tells me so).

There are two seperate issues here, if the government, (any, not just the US gov/citizen), is doing things that you don't agree with, then by not acting against the government, are you not - basically agreeing?

Secondly, and this is far more applicable to the US then many other countries, since the media does not report anything that happens, (or at least very very little), outside of the US, are US citizens just happily believing the governments propganda that everything is fine apart from a few bad apples in a few rogue states?

Julian Barnes once observed that any foreigner visiting the US can perform an easy magic trick, "Buy a newspaper and see your own country disappear".

mike_k
06-12-2002, 01:15 PM
"You know the US has loads of timber, right? In fact it's not really going anywhere because it's too expensive harvest here with Canadian timber on the market"

Actually, the carpenters in Washington are lobbying to lift the illegal softwood lumber tarriff because the american lumber industry cannot meet the demand of the marketplace by itsself.

[EMOBA]
06-12-2002, 01:21 PM
>>Actually, the carpenters in Washington are lobbying to lift the illegal softwood lumber tarriff because the american lumber industry cannot meet the demand of the marketplace by itsself.<<

That's not because there's no timber. There's just not enough of the American timber industry left to meet demand. The wood is there, but a lot of the saw mills are shut down. Last year alone, we lost 10,000 timber jobs and closed 100 saw mills because of cheaper Canadian imports.

edit:// i agree the tariff is illegal under NAFTA. i wasn't saying that it should be in place.

Mario
06-12-2002, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by [EMOBA]
calmly explain you point to me , i would listen.[/B]

Let me try to be even more calm than before :D

First and foremost. Don't assume that simply because I don't share the point of view I'm anti-american. I'm as anti-american as any new yorker can be. Lived there for 12 years. Although as any good american knows, new yorkers are aliens or communist or work for the firm, or all of the above ;)

As for my point-of-view, it is obvious that lack of canadian timber would not destroy US economy. I used it to constitute the fact that economics revolve around trade and without trade there's no economics, no matter what the country produces. But it's also a possibility... think about it. Timber is a prime substance for world economics. Surely as not important as it was in the past, but it still moves the world. If US buys timber from Canada, it's not because Canada has beatiful eyes or because is poor and US wants to help. It's because they need their timber. Countries have been built around tea (surely this rings a bell to you) and have been nearly destroyed around coffee, sugar, potatoes, rice, .... The idea here is: Oil may as well be the rich product, but it's the fundamental products that really move the world. Don't underestimate their importance.

If you read your original post carefully you will notice that words like crutch don't help you defend your position. It's an outright lie (no pun intended). There's no world crutch when it comes to economy. There may as well be a political one, though.

Also, ask those same question you did there to any economist and he will say to you, america would collapse. The world would follow of course (like if the Asian market collpased for instance). But the bottom line is, the world would keep their trade and emerge, while US would have to rebuild itself.

So, again... take care of the comparisons you make.

salvelinus
06-12-2002, 02:12 PM
Well, the US is the biggest bear in the woods. Not the only bear, but the biggest. Or if you prefer, the T Rex among stegosaurus's and pterodactyls.
Lots of stereotypes about the US have some validity, ranging from a tiny overblown bit to pretty much dead on criticism. But if the US wasn't the biggest bear in the woods, it wouldn't be attracting so much attention. There are plenty of countries in the world with far worse governments than the US, but they receive far less attention and criticism because their actions don't have nearly as much of an impact on the world as a whole.
The US doesn't do any worse overall than any other country would in its position, which is not to say it does everything ok. It's just that a lot of criticism, especially from other western countries that did the same and/or worse when they were more dominant sounds hollow to US ears. (Canada, never having been a dominant power, may not fall under this).
European criticism in particular seems suspect, not because it may or may not have some validity, but because Europe in general doesn't have a good track record. Just a few years ago Bosnian Europeans were slaughtering Muslim and Croat Europeans, while other Europeans dithered about economic sanctions and limited peacekeeping roles, which they ran from if the heat got tough.
Granted, the US could have done more as well, but this was basically a European problem between Europeans. You can't really fault the US for not being more forceful when the governments over there weren't either.
To the US public, this makes European governments seem ineffective. So when the US is criticized for taking action, a lot of the criticism is shrugged off as whining by those who won't take action. Some of the criticism is valid, etc, but the source is suspect.
Canada is a bit different, not a major power and stuck with living next to the US. I live near Canada, and have been there hundreds of times. It's a great country, great people that I've met (well, some Quebecois were not so nice, but probably because I spoke English and not French). Have relatives there. Doesn't make all their criticism valid, but some is. Must be like trying to live on a porcupine sometimes.
Nobody likes the biggest bear, who takes more than many feel is his fair share, who often does what he wants regardless of others, who makes the biggest s**tpiles, etc. But regardless of who it is, there's always a biggest bear. And all the animals make s**tpiles, take what they can get (just not as much as the bear), etc.

ygfperson
06-12-2002, 02:21 PM
let's stop arguing about economics. we know we are rich. but it is not our job to give foreigners jobs. our subsidies help americans at the expense of foreigners. big deal. that's the purpose of all subsidies. i have no idea why farm subsidies were granted, but it is not our job to consider the collective welfare of other countries. in the real world, we are brutal. a country isn't a friendly thing. the purpose of a country is to ensure the best welfare for its citizens, while keeping every other country friendly.

please, understand the typical american view of the world. (or mine, anyway.) america is a sovereign nation. we are the most powerful on earth, but surely we don't overpower most of the other countries, do we? europe is responsibile for european citizens (and we consider the united kingdom to be part of europe.) japan is responsible for its welfare. mexico is responsible for its welfare. and so on...

in military power, we surpass most countries by a factor so great that it mandates our being a global citizen in that area. but in economics and politics, it's every country for itself.

Unregistered
06-12-2002, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by ygfperson
let's stop arguing about economics. we know we are rich. but it is not our job to give foreigners jobs. our subsidies help americans at the expense of foreigners. big deal. that's the purpose of all subsidies. i have no idea why farm subsidies were granted, but it is not our job to consider the collective welfare of other countries. in the real world, we are brutal. a country isn't a friendly thing. the purpose of a country is to ensure the best welfare for its citizens, while keeping every other country friendly.

please, understand the typical american view of the world. (or mine, anyway.) america is a sovereign nation. we are the most powerful on earth, but surely we don't overpower most of the other countries, do we? europe is responsibile for european citizens (and we consider the united kingdom to be part of europe.) japan is responsible for its welfare. mexico is responsible for its welfare. and so on...

in military power, we surpass most countries by a factor so great that it mandates our being a global citizen in that area. but in economics and politics, it's every country for itself.

preciselly why canada should stop all exports of oil & gas to the americans :p i would love to see the americans squirming when the price of oil doubles! it would be grand! how long do you think the americans could stand it? half a year? less? and im willing to be if canada did do this the americans would kindly invade us to get their cheap oil back...

Fountain
06-12-2002, 04:56 PM
i really give up! a post started as Americans are c**ts, has ended up as canadians think americans are c**ts.......maybe you two sides should work together , with us Englanders and ...well, take over the world...


ignore the rest of the posts.....they will only wind you up!