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kermi3
05-19-2002, 09:19 PM
I believe that a major problem in the world today is that people are too educated. Allow me to explain:

Fifty years ago going to college was not something that everyone did. Prehaps it was akin to going to graduate school today. If you did go to college then you expected to work in a white collar job with a solid income. After the GI bill it is now very comman to go to college. However we have still not changed our views on what an educated person should do. We now have a much larger portion of our population that expects to work that white collar job. Therefore prices go up and there are fewer people to do labor jobs.

Since prices are up and there are fewer people to do blue collar jobs, jobs move out of the US into poorer nations (not always a bad thing) and US economy becomes a service based economy without a firm base.


Ok, that's what I believe, however I'd love for someone to shoot it down. I am someone who lives his life to educate others, and it is one of my most core beliefs that education is more important than almost anything else. Therefore I do not believe that the system of education should change (unless you want to imporve it, but that's an entirely diffrent thread...), instead simply that we should change our views on what you should get after that college education prehaps.

DavidP
05-19-2002, 09:47 PM
well with how lazy we're getting...i dont think there is a way back now....america's blue collar work force will just keep on thinning out....

i do kind of agree with you. i have not actually looked into any statistics or anything, but what you have said seems logical, and a lack of blue collar labor might cause problems...

itld
05-19-2002, 10:32 PM
howdy,
50 years ago a person could make a living with basic knowledge, today most anything you do comes with a technical slant thus Trade schools to teach even auto mechanics.
i'm not sure prices go up just beacause of a more educated work force but maybe because of a more technically oriented public.
As to work force migration, i think economics have a lot to say about that, simply put the more technical the task the more $$ can be earned that puts us in the position to pay less technically advanced folks to perform less technical labor.
don't forget the basics of business, if an employee does not earn more for the company than the company pays said employee the company fails. this is trus at all levels from the CEO down to the janitor, Educated employees are much more productive and earn more for the company thus they are paid more.
education is important but only as it applies to economics, an unemployed PHD on unemployment is a drain on the economy.

M.R.

novacain
05-20-2002, 02:20 AM
I don't realy follow the
>>Therefore prices go up and there are fewer people to do labor jobs.
I agree with the workforce is getting more skilled. 100 years ago a farmer planted his crops and harvested if he could, gave tithe for next year. Now ours play the futures market, use GPS guided machines and rely on computer models for weather and speak constantly about 'value adding' and 'clean green image'.

Surely if the there is a glut in labour then the price (wages) of a worker goes down. Or manufacturing is moved offshore for cheaper labour. Take the current row in hollywood over non union movies (SAG award).

Reducing labour costs reduces costs and so should reduce price. But prices rarely fall. We still pay >$100 for a designer label clothing even if it was made for a few $ in a developing country.

We have to realise that some jobs are going to disappear, farmers are probably one, forrestry is definately one (wood is the new ivory). Just as we accept that some new ones appear, ie IT consultant.

Its part of the global economy, there is no way back as the corporations have embraced it. Convince your government that the only way is to create hi tech jobs thru R&D grants, training allowances ect or be left behind. Not thru the short term fixes GWB is using to keep popular. Even M Albright is confused over his foreign policies.

kermi3
05-20-2002, 05:26 AM
>>I don't realy follow the
>>Therefore prices go up and there are fewer people to do labor jobs.


The theroy is that since more people have more money, prices get raised because companies feel they can get more money for their product and because they are paint higher salleries...inflation.

ygfperson
05-20-2002, 01:00 PM
blue collar jobs are jobs without need for education. an educated person can do both white-collar and blue-collar work. education doesn't limit a person to anything. (except maybe in germany... jk :D)

Therefore prices go up and there are fewer people to do labor jobs.
not a bad thing if people are also making more. fewer people == higher demand. eventually someone will do a job if s/he gets paid enough. for starting at $100,000 a year i will dig through a landfill with my bare hands searching for the weirdest souvineir(sp...) that comes from east timor in its precolonial days. of course, others will also want to do that job... then the employer bids for labor... but that's how capitalism works.

We have to realise that some jobs are going to disappear, farmers are probably one,farmers are absolutely essential. before anything else, there were farmers. can you explain this?

Since prices are up and there are fewer people to do blue collar jobs, jobs move out of the US into poorer nations (not always a bad thing) and US economy becomes a service based economy without a firm base.
what is a firm base? elaborate, please.

golfinguy4
05-20-2002, 05:05 PM
You are right. However, I would rather have an overeducated country instead of an undereducated country.

Even though we are "educated," does anyone realize how dumb Americans actually are? Seriously, think about it. There are so many racist, prejudiced people it is ridiculous.

ygfperson
05-20-2002, 07:40 PM
there are racist, prejudiced people everywhere. (prejudice can be interpreted as anything.) on the whole i don't believe we are more racist than other countries. we have done a lot to counter racism.
look at europe. there is a rather strong anti-immigration movement. in some ways the united states is more rightist than europe. but imho it is a better form of conservativism. we cut back on government spending. we value personal liberties. we may act harsh and arrogant to other countries, but it is on a national scale. we are not anti-immigrant. we are definately not racist.
we were the ones actually attacked by immigrants, and we have no such movement. bush has many, many flaws, but his immigration policy is fairly liberal and i like him for it.

ugh... how did i get into a rant on politics? feel free to disregard all that.
in short: education and racism/prejudice are not linked, but it doesn't necessarily mean we are racist/prejudiced.

novacain
05-20-2002, 10:00 PM
>>farmers are absolutely essential. before anything else, there were farmers. can you explain this?

True. But farmers are not essential in ALL countries. You do not need rice farmers in the US. If it can be grown cheaper in Asia, why pay to grow it in the US?

f0ul
05-21-2002, 11:59 AM
I know this is a thread for Americans, but I thought it would be useful to hear a new view.

Education is very important, however exam results and pieces of paper with qualifications on them are not. In the UK during the 50's only 2% of the population had a university degree - by today that figure is up to 30%. It doesn't mean that people are much smarter, it means there are more bits of paper in circulation.

You ask people today how to look after pigs, and they wouldn't have a clue - because its irrelevant to their lifestyles. and the same is true of educational qualifications and jobs in general. You need a degree to do certain jobs, but those jobs didn't exist years ago - so one follows the other.

Blue collar jobs as you know them are not as plentyful as they were, but the equivilent jobs in todays market would be working in IT support, or telesales, or retail. Jobs that are by definition white collar but you don't really need a brain to do them (I work in telesales myself, I know!)

Does my view line up with your experiances?

Cheeze-It
05-21-2002, 06:02 PM
Why are all you non-US Residents obsessed with
what's going on over here? You people critisize
everything. Leave us alone. You're stalking us.
It's getting a little frightening.

Anyway, the internet is the reason why the US
economy is currently in Sucksville. It's those
damn rednecks who thought it was an easy way
to make a buck. They quit their jobs; the only
jobs they were actually qualified to do, and
started their own amateur porn site... Then
went bankrupt when they realized that nobody
wanted to look at their chicken-loving daughters
naked on their Chevy.

Stupid Hicks. Go back to picking my potatos and
I'll continue to develop your film (not of your
ugly, naked, redheaded step-children, though)...

Oh, and the farming profession is not going to
disappear. Those jobs usually run in the family.
Besides, there'll always be a need for farmers.
Where do you think vegetables come from? Who do
you think feeds the cows and pigs that you feed
on? Jeez, duh.

>an educated person can do both white-collar and
>blue-collar work

No they can't. White-collar workers are lazy little
wieners who sit at a desk all day. People who have
expensive haircuts, shape their sideburns, and
are always concerned with how well their fingernails
are groomed. They also go to the Gym 4 times a
week; wear $50 Calvin Klein grey T-Shirts; Eat
expensive, pointlessly decorated food for all
three meals; And even though they go to the Gym
4 times per week, they only do aerobics. I bet
they couldn't lift 30 pounds if their life depended
on it... Oh, and I'm sick of their stupid SUVs,
too. They don't need them. I'm tired of seeing
their dumb wives all alone in a Ford Excursion.
Freakin' idiots.

This whole post is ":)." I don't care. I only
slept three hours last night; and I can't go to
bed until after I watch the Season Finale of "24."
Don't want to miss it. Blah, blah, blah. Leave
me alone!!!

itld
05-21-2002, 10:00 PM
howdy,

Does my view line up with your experiances?

i agree.

M.R.

blight2c
05-21-2002, 11:28 PM
>After the GI bill it is now very comman to go to college.

you might be instrested in a book called "bobo's in paradise" by d. brooks. he attributes the rise of the educated class to the shift in political thought post veitnam. if you're refering to the ww2 vets, i don't think the gi bill had much to do with the huge rise in college enrollment. the biggest influx came from the so called flower childern, that's how i learned it at least. but check out the book, it's worth the read.

>US economy becomes a service based economy without a firm base.

now, i'm pretty far from being an expect here but i think most economist would disagree with the firm base part. i know that that was the popular theory in the 90's but this trend as gone on for too long for it to be a fluke. i think most students of economic law have jumped on the "new economy" band wagon. i get most my info here from harper's and the nyr, so i won't feel bad if you don't trust me :)


>however I'd love for someone to shoot it down.

with pleasure, sir :D i don't know . . . i think you're on the right track. i'd ask you though what you thought of as education as opposed to training or knowledge. i don't mean to slight anyone personally, but if you went into school with the notion that it would help you get a job when you got out, you were trained not educated. i'd generalize that by adding, those aforementioned people were not taught how to fish, but rather taught how to fish in one part of the stream with one kind of lure.

but, i'm sure eveyone already clicked over to the next thread by now so i'm just going to babble on about how many words i can fit into a sentence without using a period, because, when you think about it--late at night or possibly sitting next to a fat man on the subway whose obviously hasn't showered in days--the true measure of any single person's intelligence and wisdom, beit a male or female, is in the way they look you in the eyes as they explain their truest passion (for the passionless, you need'nt waste your time looking into their eyes because without the drive to live/pine for something better a person's eyes become tepid and shallow as if they were blighted by a sun 100 times stronger than the one we know): if they stumble for words and stare befuddled as if they have never thought the word passion could be used as a noun, they're a dolt and should be kept in the mines digging for gold; but, the person's whose eyes widen at the query and a relieved smirk crosses their lips, this person is worth talking to, listen to them, and enjoy the too-short companionship you'll have together.

kermi3
05-22-2002, 05:28 PM
"bobo's in paradise" by d. brooks

Will do, to be totally honest my economics is based on my own theorizing and is not as firm as it should be. But that's why you shot it down so nicely...thanks. I do worry however, that we are becoming to service based, especially when you compare us to the rest of the world. I fear, and I could be wrong here, that if we become too service based we will surpass the rest of the world by so much that they will not be able to catch up in a reasonable amount of time.


i'd ask you though what you thought of as education as opposed to training or knowledge...those aforementioned people were not taught how to fish, but rather taught how to fish in one part of the stream with one kind of lure.

I think the problem with such specialazation would be dangerous. What if the part of the stream that the man was taught on dried up. It is much harder to take up a new career as an adault with a family than as a college age person. However, teaching to fish isn't a bad idea.

The other problem with such specialazation is that it reminds me of too many science fiction novels. I can see such specialazation keeping people from moving up and life and thus leading to a cast system.

Of course I'll go further...As I mentioned previously I am a huge advocate of education. I think everyman should be able to think, reason, and understand abstract though on his own. I think this, on the general scale, makes people happier and more productive and also lets them be more adaptable later in life.




but, i'm sure eveyone already clicked over to the next thread by now so i'm just going to babble on about how many words i can fit into a sentence without using a period, because, when you think about it--late at night or possibly sitting next to a fat man on the subway whose obviously hasn't showered in days--the true measure of any single person's intelligence and wisdom, beit a male or female, is in the way they look you in the eyes as they explain their truest passion (for the passionless, you need'nt waste your time looking into their eyes because without the drive to live/pine for something better a person's eyes become tepid and shallow as if they were blighted by a sun 100 times stronger than the one we know): if they stumble for words and stare befuddled as if they have never thought the word passion could be used as a noun, they're a dolt and should be kept in the mines digging for gold; but, the person's whose eyes widen at the query and a relieved smirk crosses their lips, this person is worth talking to, listen to them, and enjoy the too-short companionship you'll have together.

LOL. 'Nough said.

itld
05-22-2002, 08:17 PM
howdy,

I think everyman should be able to think, reason, and understand abstract though on his own.

i think you have confused a couple of concepts, none of these concepts were "taught" at the University of Utah Engineering Dept. nor are they taught in the elementary level schools.
thank god most parents are able to at least in someway teach these things at home.

M.R.

kermi3
05-22-2002, 09:30 PM
I think many of these concepts are taught in school, at least when schools work properly. They were to me in at rate.

Mathamatics teaches logic and reason. English class, specifically writing and literature teach abstract thought, interpertation, and about people. Of course this is all in proper schooling...or atleast that is what I feel proper schooling should be. The memorazation, facts, and figures are not the most important things learned. The chances are no one is going to walk up to me on the street and ask about unifacation of the Holy Roman Empire, but in learning it I learned skills in notetaking, writing, and linking concepts. That's what's important, not that the Empire was once the strongest in Europe and claimed Devine right passed down through the Romans.

I don't think many of these things are taught in college. That is more focused on learning to live on your own and on and actual job or professtion. And prehaps in todays less than perfect inner city schools these things are not taught, but they should be.

And I totally agree thank god for those parents who do teach where schools fail.

blight2c
05-22-2002, 09:51 PM
>I think everyman should be able to think, reason, and understand abstract though on his own.

good lord, i hope that is never realized. can you imagine a world in which everyone thought for themselves--complete and total anarchy, and i mean the bad kind of anarchy. there was a line from the movie fight club i liked: something about how the worker bees can leave when ever they want, but it's the queen that's slave. (voltaire's candide takes this line of thought: just put your head down and work and one day you'll die content.)

i, of course, don't mean to crush your idealism; it's very commendable and i wish i still had mine. but, i think, education in it's classical sense is lost and will be for sometime to come for the very reason you pointed out: saturation.

i know what you're saying though: some people have a special kind of awareness about what goes on around them. they'll work or converses with people who, while perhaps inteligent in all other respects, are incapable of bridging the gap between their self-identity/self-reflection and the abyss of thought and emotion that lies _underneath_ what we might actually percieve on a daily basis. (if you're interested berkley and hume talk a lot about this: berkley draws a nice image of god in a labratory with the brain of every person ever alive floating in its own ether (if stevey's reading, this is another refernce the matrix made that i liked)--most of us could never hope to 'look' beyond our own jar, but a few can just skim an 'realer' reality).

but i digress. good topic, thanks for bringing it up :D