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Shiro
03-25-2002, 01:37 PM
Today I read in the newspaper that there will be a festival of the American democrats party where Michael Jackson will be present, Bill Clinton will be present with his saxophone.... and the festival should collect millions of dollars! During the elections I heard the campaigns costed many millions of dollars.

I was wondering, why do you American spend so much money on election campaigns?

Govtcheez
03-25-2002, 01:40 PM
Because we're so damn cool.

Seriously, because to get your message out to 250+ million people spread out across such a large area takes a lot of money. Also, because we like a spectacle.

Why do you Europeans care so much about what we do?

stevey
03-25-2002, 01:42 PM
in the UK i understand we have a limit on how much can be spent by each party.
seems sensible.
i believe in the US there are no limits so therefore,
more money=more publicity etc=more votes.

in The Netherlands, you're probably too stoned to vote anyway:D

Unregistered
03-25-2002, 01:42 PM
Because it is a corrupted system runed by the corporations. It stops ordinary people from real power. Only corporate approved canditate can get elected. It's a shadow democracy. Money talks. without big flashy tv campaigns the average american want bother to find out what the canditate stand for. VOTE NADER

Shiro
03-25-2002, 01:58 PM
>Why do you Europeans care so much about what we do?

Well, I'm just interested why you American do things that we don't.

In the Netherlands we don't give money to a president candidate. The president candidates have to convince us that hey will lead our country in a good way. The candidate who attracts people most because of his ideas and plans will get the most votes. But he will have to do it by his self and his party.

>in The Netherlands, you're probably too stoned to vote anyway

Well, I think you are referring to Amsterdam isn't it? I can tell you: AMSTERDAM IS NOT THE NETHERLANDS!! It's just a stupid city somewhere in the west of our country where people lay stoned or drunk in front of your house or are visiting the hookers.

I'm from the northern part of the Netherlands and we don't like those people from the west very much.

Govtcheez
03-25-2002, 02:03 PM
> Well, I'm just interested why you American do things that we don't.

I know - I'm just so damn sick of people saying "Why do you stupid, filthy Americans do this really negative thing?" like the US is the cesspool of the world and it's the fault of every American citizen.

> In the Netherlands we don't give money to a president candidate. The president candidates have to convince us that hey will lead our country in a good way. The candidate who attracts people most because of his ideas and plans will get the most votes. But he will have to do it by his self and his party.

That's still similar to the states. No one says you have to donate money - that's why it's a donation. I sure as hell don't donate.

Brian
03-25-2002, 02:05 PM
Elections?
They said something about voter apathy, but I don't really give a ...........

Shiro
03-25-2002, 02:18 PM
>I know - I'm just so damn sick of people saying "Why do you
>stupid, filthy Americans do this really negative thing?" like the
>US is the cesspool of the world and it's the fault of every
>American citizen.

Well, I don't say you are stupid and do negative things. I was only saying that you do things in a different way and I'm wondering why. By the way, it's not only Americans which I ask questions like this.

America takes leadership in military and political world events, so America is a quite wellknown nation. I'm quite sure that you American know less of Europe than we know about America. That's not a negative fact, it's just telling that the European press is more interested in American politics than American press is interested in European politics. I don't know why that is and I don't really mind, since I already know about Europe and want to learn what's going outside of Europe.

stevey
03-25-2002, 02:25 PM
:)
ive been to Amsterdamme and thought it was a nice place.
very clean, not much litter. of course it has its bad areas.
in fact i think probably The NEtherlands is one of the nicest places in Europe.
i did in fact partake of the coffee bars, but the weed is FAR too strong for me !!!!!!
didn't bother with the prostitutes tho, just a bit of window shopping !!

Shiro
03-25-2002, 02:29 PM
I've been to Amsterdam several times, sure there are nice things. But I think I don't like the people of Amsterdam. The people in the west seem to think that they are superior to the people in the north and east. I don't mind that they are thinking that, but I don't like it when they are in the north or east and treat the people like idiots.

stevey
03-25-2002, 02:37 PM
well ive only been to Amsterdam and surrounding areas so can't comment. we have a bit of a north/south divide in the UK, mebe were all a bit intolerant of different people.

Shiro
03-25-2002, 02:40 PM
>mebe were all a bit intolerant of different people.

Yes, I think that's in the nature of the human being... well, it's in the nature of all living on this planet. If something is strange to us, we treat that something which is different as something hostile, until we learn more about it.

stevey
03-25-2002, 02:50 PM
so take yourself off to Amsterdam and make friends !:) :)
just dont partake the weed, unless you're used to it, or you'll be floating around all day !!

ygfperson
03-25-2002, 02:50 PM
campaign finance reform:
currently(in the united states) people are limited to $1000 donations. interest groups are limited to $5000. "soft money", money indirectly contributed, is unlimited. the current campaign finance reform bill before the president soon will cut soft money in the federal government completely, and raise limits on "hard" money, direct contributions.
limits on party spending can't happen because that's against free speech. limiting soft money is a grey matter also because of free speech. this year is the first time in ten years that the same campaign finance bill passed both the senate and the house of representatives. better yet, bush said he'll sign. it would be political suicide not to.

Aran
03-25-2002, 03:12 PM
The American Democracy: what a load of crap.

It's more like a bunch of popular wealthy people with heart problems (i.e. Chaney) who gather and talk about nothing while no one cares (proportional to the population) and nothing happens. At this point America is a real poserish democracy. We've lost ourselves in beaurocracy and hipocrasy.

America should fess up and stop being ridiculous.

cozman
03-26-2002, 12:23 AM
You have to realize that if you criticize the gov't you need to be specific or nothing changes... using words like poserish isn't going to help anything change. Buy yourself an English copy of "Revolt of the Masses" by Jose Ortega y Gasset and read a bit of Marx, Rousseau and Chomsky. Then you can change the way things work.

ygfperson
03-26-2002, 01:00 AM
America should fess up and stop being ridiculous. but camelot is a silly place, too...

novacain
03-26-2002, 02:30 AM
>>"Why do you stupid, filthy Americans do this really negative thing?" like the US is the cesspool of the world and it's the fault of every American citizen.

No, just the half that don't bother to vote. So you think it is unfair for us to blame the US for the choices your leaders make?
Tell that to the next Afghani you meet. Better yet try to do something about it.

Your politicians are very aware that if they keep you happy at home, you don't care what happens in the rest of the world ie Kyoto, Steel tariffs, farm subsidies, oil drilling in Alaskan wilderness ect.

Deckard
03-26-2002, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Shiro
I was wondering, why do you American spend so much money on election campaigns? I can think of two reasons:

1) On our annual income tax form, an option exists to contribute (I believe it's) three dollars to an election fund. The three dollars is not taken from your refund, it simply earmarks 3 bucks of your taxes for that specific purpose. I suspect many people simply shrug and think "why not?".

2) Most contributions come from corporations who hope to win influence with the candidate. In fact, it is common for a company to donate large sums of money to both of the major candidates, just in case.

Scourfish
03-26-2002, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Aran
The American Democracy: what a load of crap.

It's more like a bunch of popular wealthy people with heart problems (i.e. Chaney) who gather and talk about nothing while no one cares (proportional to the population) and nothing happens. At this point America is a real poserish democracy. We've lost ourselves in beaurocracy and hipocrasy.

America should fess up and stop being ridiculous.

Unless you live in America, then you should stop complaining. I don't live in the UK, so I don't complain about your continent wide problems with foot and mouth disease and mad cow and how you have to walk across a mat of antiseptic everytime you enter a US airport (I make jokes about it though, because I find it funny that our so called "American Democracy" has safer meat.)

Besides, don't forget who saved who's ass in WWII.

stevey
03-26-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Scourfish


Unless you live in America, then you should stop complaining. I don't live in the UK, so I don't complain about your continent wide problems with foot and mouth disease and mad cow and how you have to walk across a mat of antiseptic everytime you enter a US airport (I make jokes about it though, because I find it funny that our so called "American Democracy" has safer meat.)

Besides, don't forget who saved who's ass in WWII.

well
1) aran is American i believe, critisising his own country, just like i like to critisise mine
2) you are not well informed about foot and mouth, the safety of US and Argentinian meat is debatable, there are worse things called "prions".actually we blew it all up out of proportion(its harmless to humans) and shot ourselves in the foot (and mouth), some countries are not so honest and open.
3) the WWII thing is a joke, so you saved the UK eh ?? interesting, we could have done with some help fighting Hitler in September 1940 at the height of the Battle of Britain, but we managed to win. ever hear of it ??
in December 1941 when you finally decided to join in, we were actually on the offensive, bombing the crap out of Germany, and the Russians were winning the Battle of Stalingrad. these two battles largely decided WWII.
if anyone deserves credit for winning WWII (and i believe it was very much a combined effort) then it is the Russians, who bled the Wehmacht dry on the Eastern Front, allowing the US and UK to open a second front and finish them off.

so there
any well informed german will tell you that was the case.

Shiro
03-26-2002, 01:35 PM
>So you think it is unfair for us to blame the US for the choices
>your leaders make?

We, everybody in a country with democracy, choose our leaders. But that doesn't mean we, the voters, have many impact on the choices of our choosen leaders, especially in high level (world level) politics. In fact, this impact is just very little. So it is unfair to blame a nation for the choices their leaders make.

But it is true that if we disagree with a decision of our leaders, we should tell it them loud and clearly. I know that often this also has just little impact, but it shows to the rest of the world that you don't agree with the decision of your leader.

>Besides, don't forget who saved who's ass in WWII.

A damn lot of people helped freeing Europe from the nazi's. The Canedians, the Russians, the British, the American and many more.

Well, if the theme of this thread is now "who does the most bad things", some other ones

- in some states in the USA it is legal to kill people.
- you American treat the original locals of your continent as inferior people (the indians) and put them in reservates.

But after all, the purpose of this thread was to discuss why American spend so much money on elections and NOT: who (American or not American) is better.

Govtcheez
03-26-2002, 01:38 PM
> you American treat the original locals of your continent as inferior people (the indians) and put them in reservates.

Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Nobody forces Native Americans to live on reservations. Nobody.

> But after all, the purpose of this thread was to discuss why American spend so much money on elections and NOT: who (American or not American) is better.

You had to expect it would end up there eventually.

Shiro
03-26-2002, 01:45 PM
>Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about, do
>you? Nobody forces Native Americans to live on reservations.
>Nobody.

Just flaming.

>You had to expect it would end up there eventually.

Yep, I knew that. Threads about a country usually end up like this, too bad. Seems many people haven't learned what results nationalism can have..... (1940-1945, Yugoslavia, the Basks etc.)

Deckard
03-26-2002, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Shiro
- in some states in the USA it is legal to kill people.Just for clarification, it is legal to kill another person in every state, under the following conditions:
[list=1]
To defend yourself from immediate serious bodily injury or death.
To protect another person from immediate seriously bodily injury or death.
[/list=1] There are, of course, other provisions for members of the military protecting certain national security interests (such as nukes), as well as state appointed executioners carrying out death warrants.

Govtcheez
03-26-2002, 01:49 PM
> Just flaming.

It certainly was not. You made a totally unsubstaniated claim.

stevey
03-26-2002, 01:51 PM
well ive noticed that all the threads ive been looking at have descended into American/anti-american arguing.
i certainly am not anti-american, if anyones got that impression i apologise.
i hate this comment though, it always goes through me -
"besides, don't forget who saved who's ass in WWII"

its as daft as a lot of British who, believe it or not think WE won the war!!, and love to tease Americans with the "well you joined in eventually" argument. ive just done it above actually.

i think WWII was so momentous a thing, its worthy of discussion.
i'm gonna start a new thread to that effect. ive been to Russia andthe Russians think they won it too !! i myself have more sympathy with their case. certainly Hitler would not have beaten them, or the UK either. without the Americans it may have been a stalemate.

ober
03-26-2002, 01:57 PM
I'm not even bothering to read this whole thing because i honestly don't care... but this caught my eye...

>>Well, I'm just interested why you American do things that we don't.

OHHH... we're sorry!! I forgot we're still under British rule and we have to do things exactly like you! WTF????? Elections are a damn big deal here and we'll do them how we damn well please. Thank you. :o

Shiro
03-26-2002, 01:58 PM
So in America it is legal to kill people and America is still complaining about human rights in other countries?

>well ive noticed that all the threads ive been looking at have
>descended into American/anti-american arguing.

Yep, noticed that too. Also noted that in many of those threads it ended up in America and the rest of the world.

>i think WWII was so momentous a thing, its worthy of
>discussion.

Yes it sure is.

>i'm gonna start a new thread to that effect. ive been to Russia
>andthe Russians think they won it too !!

All the big countries think they've won. I live near the German border and there are still Germans who say the've never lost the war.

To Govtcheez: you need to read more between the lines.

Shiro
03-26-2002, 02:00 PM
>OHHH... we're sorry!! I forgot we're still under British rule and
>we have to do things exactly like you! WTF????? Elections are a
>damn big deal here and we'll do them how we damn well
>please. Thank you.

Hmmm. It seems that some people really have problems with reading.

Sorensen
03-26-2002, 02:01 PM
>>Well, I'm just interested why you American do things that we don't.

OHHH... we're sorry!! I forgot we're still under British rule and we have to do things exactly like you! WTF????? Elections are a damn big deal here and we'll do them how we damn well please. Thank you.

That post was from some-one from the Netherlands, which is a country not located inside Britain. Get yourself an atlas.

stevey
03-26-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Deckard
Just for clarification, it is legal to kill another person in every state, under the following conditions:
[list=1]
To defend yourself from immediate serious bodily injury or death.
To protect another person from immediate seriously bodily injury or death.
[/list=1] There are, of course, other provisions for members of the military protecting certain national security interests (such as nukes), as well as state appointed executioners carrying out death warrants.
we have been having discussions in the UK about defending property etc a farmer has been convicted of murder for shooting dead an intruder who was in his property at the time. the other guy was unarmed but at a remote farm plagued by burglars, it seems he had every right to shoot myself, certainly its not murder.
is it true that you can shoot dead intruders on your property in the US. in practice would you get away with it ??? i feel our laws are strict, we can get into trouble for even hitting somebody weve caught in our own home !! our laws are too far in protection of the criminals.

Govtcheez
03-26-2002, 02:04 PM
> it seems he had every right to shoot myself

He shot you?

> is it true that you can shoot dead intruders

Why would you shoot someone if they're already dead?

stevey
03-26-2002, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Sorensen


That post was from some-one from the Netherlands, which is a country not located inside Britain. Get yourself an atlas.

its quite close though !! we can get a ferry from Hull and be there in a few hours !!
i myself would like to claim The Netherlands, because its a rather beautiful country in my opinion. I think the Dutch are among the nicest people in the world. of course most seem to speak English, which is always handy !!!!!

ober
03-26-2002, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Sorensen
That post was from some-one from the Netherlands, which is a country not located inside Britain. Get yourself an atlas.

It goes for any country saying that to us... why the hell would we be expected to do something similar to another country? And I didn't realize where the writer of that comment was coming from... I didn't look at the whereabouts of Shiro... my bad. I guess I got him mixed up with stevey.

Govtcheez
03-26-2002, 02:08 PM
Shiro: Not everything's a conspiracy. Some things can actually be taken at face value. There's plenty of Native Americans that live off reservations.

stevey
03-26-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Govtcheez
> it seems he had every right to shoot myself

He shot you?

lol
no, i may deserve shooting, but no. bad English

> is it true that you can shoot dead intruders

Why would you shoot someone if they're already dead?

lol
could be making sure he was dead ???

Shiro
03-26-2002, 02:12 PM
>its quite close though !! we can get a ferry from Hull and be
>there in a few hours !!

Yep, Europe is a small place, but a nice place.

>i myself would like to claim The Netherlands, because its a
>rather beautiful country in my opinion. I think the Dutch are
>among the nicest people in the world.

Well, the Dutch are not always nice. Just look at what we've done in Suriname, South-Africa and especially Indonesia. And at this moment politics in the Netherlands is shifting to the right. In may there are elections, I hope the right-wing political parties will not winn. But I'm not sure, the leader of the largest right-wing party is quite popular. We'll see.

>of course most seem to speak English, which is always
>handy !!!!!

Very little people in the world speak Dutch, so we need to learn foreign languages to be able to communicate with other people.

Shiro
03-26-2002, 02:16 PM
>Not everything's a conspiracy.

Sorry, I don't know what conspiracy is.

>Some things can actually be taken at face value. There's plenty
>of Native Americans that live off reservations.

Yep, I've learned from Discovery Channel that those reservations are their own parts of the countries, where their ancestors (?) lived and their history is. They also told the native Americans are not forced to live in the reservations and that some of them even don't.

stevey
03-26-2002, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Shiro
>

Well, the Dutch are not always nice. Just look at what we've done in Suriname, South-Africa and especially Indonesia. And at this moment politics in the Netherlands is shifting to the right. In may there are elections, I hope the right-wing political parties will not winn. But I'm not sure, the leader of the largest right-wing party is quite popular. We'll see.

>of course most seem to speak English, which is always
>handy !!!!!

Very little people in the world speak Dutch, so we need to learn foreign languages to be able to communicate with other people.

well no country is perfect, most have been involved in some very dodgy enterprises at some time in their histories. i found on a personal level that Dutch people seem very decent. have you seen "band of brothers" on TV. can you get BBC where you live ?? anyway these American Paratroops in WWII met English, French, Belgium, German and Dutch people in their travels and proffessed liking the Dutch more than anyone else !!

i can only speak English, English speaking peoples are very lazy about learning another language. but english is probably the most useful language in the world.

Shiro
03-26-2002, 02:32 PM
I agree, every country has some dark periods in its history.

Yes I've seen "band of brothers", really great, I can imagine very well why this got so many prizes. I can watch the BCC. Since a few years also at the part of the country where I live we have cable-TV. So now we can get a "lot" of TV stations. Also from UKm Belgium, Germany, Turkey and France. And some other stations, but I don't know where they're from.

Don't know why the American like the Dutch. Perhaps they have something in common.

>i can only speak English, English speaking peoples are very lazy
>about learning another language. but english is probably the
>most useful language in the world.

I think for English speaking people the need for learning other languages is not very big.

stevey
03-26-2002, 02:53 PM
i don't think these Americans like you very much !!
or me !!
in fact especially me !!

Scourfish
03-26-2002, 04:01 PM
Hmm, this was a soft money flame war, but now it's something else, so here's a riddle:

If you're German in the kitchen, what are you in the bathroom?

Mbrio
03-26-2002, 05:18 PM
riddle: don't have a clue.. a german?


Don't know why the American like the Dutch. Perhaps they have something in common.

The dutch and the Americans actually do have a lot in common. You know that New York used to be New Amsterdam and Brooklyn comes from the dutch town Breukelen. This is because the dutch used to be pretty big in the US once. They even had a vote on which langauge the Americans had to adopt, dutch or english. Dutch just fell a few votes short...

It also seems that a lot of demographic changes that happen in the US also happen a few years later in the Netherlands. Don't know why that is, but it is.

About the dutch: they do seem to be a nice people. I personnaly think that because they don't give a **** about what you do. I think in the Netherlands you are as free as you could possibly be. Hardly ever you'll find someone complaining about something someone else does. The only bad/good (depending on your own view) thing about it is that the dutch don't really seem to have ideals. We don't fight for anything. We just shrug our shoulders and move along.

And on the drugs issue: I don't do drugs, tried it, didn't enjoy it. And to people who think everybody in the Netherlands does drugs, I say: "guess again". The thing is that because of our liberal laws on drugs people are free to use it, and somehow that's a better way of discouraging people than forbiddin it.

Scourfish
03-26-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Mbrio
riddle: don't have a clue.. a german?





Nope;

>q: If your German in the kitchen what are you in the bathroom?

a: YOUR A PEEIN in the bathroom! Ha Ha, get it? Your A Peein>>European;

Get it now?

And this joke probably failed.

-KEN-
03-26-2002, 07:54 PM
Being a resident of florida you'd think I'd know a bit more about the election process, but all I know is that either

A) Democrats can't read
B) Butterflies scare people
C) Democrats can and will complain, argue, and demand a recount for everything and anything
D) All of the above and then some.

One day I'll find one of the 2 pre-election butterfly ballots that were sent to my famly and scan them. I swear you'd have to be freaking braindead to not see where to poke the damn hole...

SilentStrike
03-26-2002, 08:50 PM
Let me guess Ken, your parents are republican?

Aran
03-26-2002, 09:21 PM
The problem with government can be summed up in this:

The will to power. (remember Immanuel Kant? i think he wrote something about the will to power)

novacain
03-26-2002, 10:06 PM
>>So it is unfair to blame a nation for the choices their leaders make.

If it is a democracy, who is to blame? Who can change the leaders or their attitudes?

Why do these all turn into anti American discusions?
Because America has huge power, both political and finacial. In both public and state areas.
And continues to act irresponsibly in the world arena. Bush introduces tariffs and subsidies and then talks of incoraging free trade in a country where the subsidies hit farmers hard and the US has a US$60bil trade surplus (US provides US$40bil in total world aid).

Your media seems only concerned with him 'pandering to Hispanic minorities'.

Take this new CBDTPA. If it happens as proposed on the hardware level.
Will the Tiwanese manufactures change the hardware to suit the US? (forcing the rest of us to follow)

Unregistered
03-26-2002, 10:45 PM
heh what can i say americans are stupid! common if you guys used all that money to pay down your dept maybe you could begin to pay it back! and more money does equal more votes :P democracy is run by the rich and the masses follow like the blind

oh ya canada ownz j00!