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stevey
03-25-2002, 01:24 PM
:eek:

Now that there is an official war on terror, can you now PLEASE stop sending money to the IRA ?????
As the British are one of your your closest allies we feel this is only fair.

Govtcheez
03-25-2002, 01:25 PM
/me stops payment

It's not like individual British citizens have never paid to support terrorists...

stevey
03-25-2002, 01:33 PM
"It's not like individual British citizens have never paid to support terrorists..."
this is all too true.
however having experienced terrorism first hand for MANY years, our government tries to prevent supporting it, whithin the confines of freedom of speech etc

The IRA was NOT EVEN A BANNED organisation until recently, the American government did NOTHING to prevent fundraising and arms shipments. well, very little anyway.

London has been bombed many times, the IRA attempted to kill our prime minister and her cabinet !! anyone remember ???

I just find it ironic to say the least.

Deckard
03-25-2002, 01:55 PM
The money I send to the IRA is a direct deduction from my paycheck, and it may take a while for the payroll department to process my request to have it stopped.

I don't doubt the U.S. Government is financing all sorts of shady groups, but I hope you realize that American citizens have little control over what the government does. Most of the people we vote into office are either assimilated by the establishment or turn out to be duds.

If it makes you feel any better, I will decline any offers from the IRA to write code for them ;)

nvoigt
03-25-2002, 02:01 PM
>The IRA was NOT EVEN A BANNED organisation until recently

Terrorism is all but new. The US got hit, it started an all out war. If Mexico had been hit instead, they would have given rats ass and send money to rebuild it. Thats the way the world works. To get people to care, it has to hit themselves. Seeing others suffer doesn't cause the same feelings in people.

stevey
03-25-2002, 02:17 PM
most of the money that was used to murder British citizens came from the USA.

most of the money that came from the US came from New York.

most of the money from New York came from Irish-Americans with a deluded, ignorant, romantic view of the situation (a recent poll showed 95% of irish-americans believe the catholics in northern ireland didn't have a vote !!!)
gerry adams (leader of IRA in all but name) is lauded in New York as a hero, and feted by high society.

the recent st patricks day parade was led by a convicted IRA terrorist, who hadn't actually murdered anyone(not convicted anyway) but he HAD blown up a police station!!

i find it very ironic, it should make New Yorkers think a little

all terrorism is bad. its wrong to kill innocents by planting bombs.
whether the bombs are in London, or a flying bomb in New York.

Govtcheez
03-25-2002, 02:23 PM
> gerry adams (leader of IRA in all but name) is lauded in New York as a hero, and feted by high society.

It makes me sad that you think that.

stevey
03-25-2002, 02:32 PM
it makes me sad that its true !!
altho' exagerated to make a point, he was basically treated like royalty on his last visit (and fundraising tour). lots of attention, lots of public speaking, lots of cheering crowds.
he should be treated like bin laden in my opinion. he's a terrorist and a murderer.
this is what fuels and feeds terrorism, they are supported by ignorant people who believe in their romantic notions.

there is NO SHADENFRUEDE regarding Sept 11th, please dont anyone get me wrong, but i want to make people think a little about supporting terrorism.

Govtcheez
03-25-2002, 02:35 PM
> NO SHADENFRUEDE

WTF?

> he was basically treated like royalty on his last visit (and fundraising tour). lots of attention, lots of public speaking, lots of cheering crowds.

So, the fact that some idiots support him makes America as a whole responsible for the IRA?

Shiro
03-25-2002, 02:38 PM
>So, the fact that some idiots support him makes America as a
>whole responsible for the IRA?

No, but desperately it is always a small, sometimes even very small, group that people notice. And then they bless the whole larger group. Just like some people saying that all muslims are bad.

stevey
03-25-2002, 02:47 PM
shadenfruede is a german word meaning taking delight in other peoples misfortune. ive spelt it wrong i think.
i dont take any delight in Sept 11th, only muslim fundamentalists and other nutcases would !!!

also not all Americans supported the IRA, i'm saying as a whole the US did nothing to help.

i find it offensive that a terrorist was leading a march, in NEW YORK !!!
but you won't conceed that its ironic, or even understand my point so i'm shutting up and going !!

Govtcheez
03-25-2002, 02:51 PM
> but you won't conceed that its ironic

I guess, being an American, I'm inexperienced at spotting irony.

As for him marching in the streets - it's freedom of speech. It's his right, but it doesn't mean anyone else has to like it.

ygfperson
03-25-2002, 02:57 PM
the ira is a terrorist organization, but it's not so clear cut. the ira is an independance organization, like the palistinian authority. the only clear win, regardless of money spent, is to stop fighting, period.

Sorensen
03-25-2002, 03:03 PM
>the ira is a terrorist organization, but it's not so clear cut. the ira is an independance organization

Virtually every terrorist organisation is an independance organisation from the other side of the fence.

Aran
03-25-2002, 03:08 PM
haven't you ever considered that we take the liberty to fund a terrorist organization that we should be fighting against?

It's a free country, what are you going to do to stop us?

Even if you do bring it up in some big forum where the world will notice, we'll just apologize and say that we're stopping it as we send them billions more than before.

stevey
03-25-2002, 03:09 PM
""the ira is a terrorist organization, but it's not so clear cut. the ira is an independance organization, like the palistinian authority. the only clear win, regardless of money spent, is to stop fighting, period.""

it is clear cut !!!!!! don't start talking like that.
independance for who ??? for northern ireland ???
2/3 of them are protestants who want to stay British !!
1/3 are catholic who want to return to IReland.
so what does the British Govenment do ???
leave northern irleand and have the Loyalists bombing London ??
or stay and have Republicans bomb London??
or try to find a middle ground, and negotiate with murderers - which is what we are doing now.

it is complicated, but can be summed up as above.

catholics in northern ireland have never been treated 1% as bad as palestinians thats for sure !!!!!!

northern ireland will probably eventually join ireland, then the Loyalist terror will begin. there must be a better way.

we must treat all terrorists as terrorists, and all western democracies must be seen to do this, to support each other.
then we can reduce terror to a minimum, it wont ever be stopped.

Sorensen
03-25-2002, 03:21 PM
>we'll just apologize and say that we're stopping it as we send them billions more than before.

Then you'll have the blood of innocents on your hands.

I believe this is an example the ignorant attitude that makes people like stevey post in the first place.


it is clear cut !!!!!! don't start talking like that.
independance for who ??? for northern ireland ???
2/3 of them are protestants who want to stay British !!
1/3 are catholic who want to return to IReland.

While this is true. It is an artificial situation. The British Government partitioned Ireland, setting up a haven for protestants and loyalists. If you took all the communists in a country and moved them into a particular location would it make sense for that part of the country to become idependant (or a province of China)?

stevey
03-25-2002, 03:26 PM
"I believe this is an example the ignorant attitude that makes people like stevey post in the first place."

thanks, thats it exactly

re situation in northern ireland, i know its a mess, the British shouldn't have even gone there, but that was a long time ago.
longer than the existance of America as a country!!!

we need to work out the situation as present.

stevey
03-25-2002, 03:47 PM
PS

ARAN

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY EXACTLY ???????

Unregistered
03-25-2002, 04:26 PM
Some clarification seems necessary:

1. Gerry Adams is the leader of the political party called Sinn Fein.
2. Gerry Adams was elected as a member of the British Parliament in exactly the same way as any other member of the British Parliament.
3.Many mp's (members of parliament) receive donations to their individual and party funding from political,religious and mostly mercantile interest from THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.
4. There is a peace process that is ongoing in Northern Ireland that has been endorsed by ALL sides and ALL interested parties in the dispute.
5. Former US President Bill Clinton, who played a role in the early stages of that peace process, promised to ban funding for all paramilitary organisations. Although I am uncertain whether the US legislature has fully implemented this in law, given the current 'terrorist-phobia' promulgated by Bobo Bush it seems extremely unlikely that such 'donations' will be permitted now or in future.

Ken Fitlike
03-25-2002, 04:41 PM
...And that 'unregistered' was me...

nvoigt
03-25-2002, 05:08 PM
>SHADENFRUEDE

Not bad for a non-german ;) "Schadenfreude" ( we put a c in our shs though it sounds the same ) is the word you were looking for. It means you enjoy the misery of someone else. You are happy this person got hit, probably because you think he deserved it.

"the ira is an independance organization, like the palistinian authority."

The IRA was resorting to acts of terror against civilians. Therefore it clearly is a terror organization. It doesn't matter what they fight for. In bombing cities and killing innocents as a means of urban warfare they have lost the right to claim any moral point.

Do you think I'm less of a murderer and terrorist if I kill innocents for world peace ? No. It doesn't matter what the ends are if the means are wrong from the beginning. Think of it as a && operation: TypeOfWarfare && MoralReasoning

If TypeOfWarfare is wrong, the result is wrong.
If MoralReasoning is wrong, the result is wrong.

"As for him marching in the streets - it's freedom of speech."

I don't know all the facts. If he is a member of Sinn Fein and nothing more, then indeed, it's free speech. If he is a convicted member of a terrorist organization ( IRA ) it is no longer free speech, it's failing to prevent a crime. Lets hope Mexico keeps it's bombers at bay and doesn't drag him to Cuba :p

All I'm trying to say here without knowing all the facts is that being the Legislative, Judicary and Executive power at the same time can be a bit... difficult. The US would probably behave completely different if they had to answer somebody for what they do.

>what are you going to do to stop us?

While I think you do the right thing in fighting terror like you do, this is exactly the egoistic attitude that makes me wonder if the war against terror is nothing more than the frenzy of a wounded animal, hitting anything in it's wake, no matter if it's friend, foe or just a harmless tree. You need friends. Friends cannot be won by bullying or buying. Friends can only be won by respect. And this attitude is not gaining the US any respect.

Aran
03-25-2002, 05:19 PM
stevey, i'm saying that if the US is doing it, there's nothing that's going to stop it. Put up with it. (i know i sound like an *******, but that's the truth)

stevey
03-25-2002, 06:07 PM
>stevey, i'm saying that if the US is doing it, there's nothing that's going to stop it. Put up with it. (i know i sound like an *******, but that's the truth)

because the US is doing something, put up with it ???????
JESUS WEPT
there was talk years ago among extreme loyalists in ireland, whether or not to plant a bomb in New York to get them back for sending money to the IRA. it was thought to be counterproductive and wasnt caried out. if you or your own were killed or maimed in that little madness would you say put up with it ?????

you are an ******* for sure !!

stevey
03-25-2002, 06:48 PM
thanx NVOIGT for German correction. "ich bin ein doughnut" as president Kennedy once said.
and
1. Gerry Adams is the leader of the political party called Sinn Fein.
2. Gerry Adams was elected as a member of the British Parliament in exactly the same way as any other member of the British Parliament.
3.Many mp's (members of parliament) receive donations to their individual and party funding from political,religious and mostly mercantile interest from THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.
The hon Gerry along with his murderous mate martin mcguiness, has NEVER been convicted of ANY wrongdoing in ANY court of law. Neither has Bin Laden, but they are both terrorists, you know that to be true so why avoid it????
Sinn Fein (I have a friend who was a member by the way !!!) is or was (its getting complicated now with the peace process/ Real IRA etc) the political wing of the IRA. the organisation used to be referred to as "sinn fein/IRA" ie it was the same thing basically!!!!
he is a terrorist, a murdering bastard.
less than 30% of catholics in NI (who are about 1/3 of the total population) voted for sinn fein. and none of the protestants. so the IRA have never had a mandate from the people of NI, they have won what they've won by terror and murder.
my friend left sinn fein due to money being channelled to the IRA, he supports the idea of a united ireland "but its not woth killing babies for" - and i quote him !!!!

4. There is a peace process that is ongoing in Northern Ireland that has been endorsed by ALL sides and ALL interested parties in the dispute.
yes true, the british have caved in to terror, thereby encouraging all terrorist organisations throughout the world.
it is the price of peace to let convicted murderers of innocent women and children go free. a price worth paying ???
yes, probably. so terror does pay then eh !!!

5. Former US President Bill Clinton, who played a role in the early stages of that peace process, promised to ban funding for all paramilitary organisations. Although I am uncertain whether the US legislature has fully implemented this in law, given the current 'terrorist-phobia' promulgated by Bobo Bush it seems extremely unlikely that such 'donations' will be permitted now or in future.
why wasn't fundraising for the IRA banned right from the start !!!! that is my point. the large irish-american vote made it difficult for the US (and i have to say that the average irish-american has a romantic view of a united ireland/british oppression etc, they haven't a clue) but i feel agrieved that more wasn't done.
the situation now, with the peace process, is complicated and different, fair point.

I feel that Americans now realise what terrorism is.

now they have sufferered, maybe they understand a little better.
or maybe not, since the st paddy's parade in New York was led by a convicted IRA member !!!!!!!!

ps do you want an independant Scotland ???
how many Scottish do ???
i understand its around 20/25 % ??? is that true ???
so there is mebe more support for that than from Northern Ireland for a united ireland ???
would you kill innocent people for the cause ???
would you vote for the Scottish Nationalist party if they supported terrorism ??? is it worth it ??

Aran
03-25-2002, 07:06 PM
well, they should do something, stevey, or we're not going to stop sending money over.

stevey
03-25-2002, 07:15 PM
ive just this minute realised, aran elus is an anagram for
REAL ANUS ie real *******.
was this intentional , or just a happy co-incidence ????

TED22_8
03-25-2002, 07:17 PM
whatever stevey n.ireland will NEVER join Rep.of ireland ! funny lad

stevey
03-25-2002, 07:29 PM
will never join the Republic ????? why not ?????
will you please tell the Real IRA to stop bombing the crap out of London then please if that is the case !!!!!

Aran
03-25-2002, 10:09 PM
stevey, why do you insult me on a personal level? it just demonstrates that i have won the arguement (or lack thereof). And your lack of creativity is also disturbing. People discovered that anagram, or a similar one, a while ago.

nvoigt
03-26-2002, 01:59 AM
>they should do something, or we're not going to stop sending money over.


Huh ? You admit some Americans are supporting a terrorist organization ? I hope you have a bunker handy, you will be bombed in the near future. Have fun while you can.

It was your president who said there is no more grey, just black and white. Either you are with us/US, or you are with the terrorists. You say you are with the terrorists. Ooops... Or is it something else if it's your terrorists ?


>Neither has Bin Laden, but they are both terrorists

Well, obviously England cannot prove it. I don't think convicted criminals are allowed into parliament, and parties who are illegal should be forbidden. So in keeping it legal, they show that they cannot prove that Sinn Fein has a direct link to the IRA, which as far as I know is illegal. ( correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not an expert )


"ich bin ein doughnut"

Lol, right ;-) I'm glad the Russians didn't manage to divide Hamburg, he might have been sued by McDonalds ;)

novacain
03-26-2002, 02:55 AM
Give up Stevie, the Americans don't care about anything outside the US (unless it has a dollar value for them). As we all know a war is good for business.

They will not do anything about the IRA because it can't be fixed with a bomb.

>>Or is it something else if it's your terrorists ?
You mean the CIA / NSA?

nvoigt
03-26-2002, 03:21 AM
>>Or is it something else if it's your terrorists ?
>You mean the CIA / NSA?

Nope, this was in reply to Arans post. He said he/americans would continue to fund the IRA. The IRA is undoubtly a terrorist organization. And as a funder of T-Orgs, the US would then fall under their own black/white law and should better bomb itself.

novacain
03-26-2002, 03:31 AM
Sorry forgot to format with the sarcasm quotes.

Deckard
03-26-2002, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by stevey
most of the money that was used to murder British citizens came from the USA.

most of the money that came from the US came from New York.I admit I'm not up on the situation, but these accusations are new to me. You tout them as fact. What is your basis of knowledge? Please, something more than "everybody knows it's true".

RobR
03-26-2002, 06:45 AM
Not proof I admit, but



BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1563000/1563119.stm)

Regards,

Rob.

Deckard
03-26-2002, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by RobR
Not proof I admit, butFar from proof, but better than nothing. How come we're not bashing the Columbian programmers? ;)

stevey
03-26-2002, 08:44 AM
thank you Robr - i was looking for some "proof", something i could cut and paste, then i saw the link you put up, which has saved me the trouble. obviously not exactly "proof" but i think i can rest my case.

RobR
03-26-2002, 08:46 AM
No prob Steve. Don'tcha just love Google??

Govtcheez
03-26-2002, 08:47 AM
Well, there's gotta be Brits supporting them, too - why don't they do something?

stevey
03-26-2002, 09:19 AM
there are "Brits" who gave money to Sinn Fein and even to IRA directly, obviously this is true. we also have "Brits" who give money to the PLO, Bin Laden and god knows who.
it is difficult to stop private individuals from supporting terrorists,
my point is that the US government did little to help stop funding for organisations that were (and still are) murdering british people. we have a peace process now but will it last ?
the IRA have not disarmed yet !!!!! and there is a splinter group, of hard-line IRA, calling themselves Real-IRA who are still trying to kill british folks. its a complicated situation and we can argue the toss for years, but my original albeit a deliberately provocative statement, is that i find it ironic, how now all terrorists are bad, its a black and white situation, any country that supports terror is threatened with bombing etc
well, London has been bombed for years. most of the money for bombing campaigns came from the US, New York being a prime money raising area.
i just wanted Americans to give it some thought thats all.
and youll notice that some contributers to this thread find it amusing to joke about giving part of their pay checks to the IRA etc mebe i'm too involved to have a sense of humour about it, but i wonder how many would find it amusing if i said i supported bin laden ?????????

Govtcheez
03-26-2002, 09:23 AM
> i wonder how many would find it amusing if i said i supported bin laden ?????????

Wouldn't make a difference - a terrorist is a terrorist. I just find it funny how you complain about the US not stopping the IRA, but it's fine for GB and Ireland not to?

Deckard
03-26-2002, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by stevey
i just wanted Americans to give it some thought thats all.
and youll notice that some contributers to this thread find it amusing to joke about giving part of their pay checks to the IRA etc mebe i'm too involved to have a sense of humour about it, but i wonder how many would find it amusing if i said i supported bin laden ????????? Here's the point, genius: the American people have no more control over what the United States government does than you do.

Is it wrong for the IRA (or anyone else) to murder someone based on their nationality or ethnic background? You bet. In fact, the IRA is similar to the Ku Klux Klan in that regard.

Is it wrong for you to cast shame upon those who have no control or authority over something that causes you so much anguish? You bet. The American people aren't the problem, and you should come to realize that.

This is obviously an important matter to you. If you want to do something about it, perhaps you can come up with something more effective than spreading blame on a programming web site.

minesweeper
03-26-2002, 09:42 AM
Could well be about time the American government did do something about stopping the funding of the IRA/Sinn Fein etc. My housemate's gf is from county Armagh (nicknamed terroristville) and she actually grew up on the same estate as Johnny Adair (Highly celebrated/villified terrorist whichever way you look at it). She says that the majority of the terrorists don't care a bit about the cause they are fighting for. They are nothing but street thugs and juvenile criminals who, in a different society might turn to drug dealing or burglary, but in the terror climate that NI offers they choose to make their living learning and carrying out paramilitary activities. Now that the bombings etc. of london have stopped (or at least calmed down) they have to ply their trade elsewhere. One way is that the IRA now runs numerous drug and protection rackets throughout NI which could be said to be a problem of the UK justice system (a good problem no doubt as they can no longer claim to be political prisoners for their crimes). But secondly they now sell their paramilitary "expertise" to the highest bidder and it has been known to the UK security forces for some time that one group of people eager to employ them are the columbian drug cartels. A group of organisations that for a few years now, the american government and the CIA have been desperately fighting a war against.

All I can say is that what goes around, comes around!!

stevey
03-26-2002, 09:47 AM
the British goverment tried hard to defeat the IRA, but in a democracy especially one such as ours with high regard for individuals rights etc, terrorism can and will win. it is doing in Northern Ireland.
it was made especially difficult by the large amounts of money sent from the US to the terrorists, albeit not directly and by private citizens. but more could have been done by the US govn. that little was done was due mainly to the 40 million or so irish-american voters who had sympathy to the cause of a united ireland, and who donated cash to various dubious organisations..

now whether they knew where some of there money is going or not is a matter that can be argued at great lenght, but a lot of thought is now going into where this money goes/went and whether or not irish-americans should be supporting such organisations. this has been brought about by the current climate of war on terror etc

now that the horror of terrorism has been visited on your shores, you know what its like, little interest in other peoples problems was shown before, now its all black and white, kill all terrorists.

Govtcheez
03-26-2002, 10:10 AM
the British goverment tried hard to defeat the IRA, but in a democracy especially one such as ours with high regard for individuals rights etc, terrorism can and will win. it is doing in Northern Ireland.
it was made especially difficult by the large amounts of money sent from the US to the terrorists, albeit not directly and by private citizens. but more could have been done by the US govn. that little was done was due mainly to the 40 million or so irish-american voters who had sympathy to the cause of a united ireland, and who donated cash to various dubious organisations..
Open your damn eyes! If you think 40 million Americans have donated money to the IRA, I've got a big bridge to sell you. Also - our gov't hands are tied in a similar manner to yours. What makes ours somehow responsible, and yours is the down-trodden?

stevey
03-26-2002, 10:37 AM
i doubt whether more than a few thousand donate directly to the IRA they have very little support, and yet theyve been allowed to win. it does vex me deeply.
its indirectly -due to ignorance i feel-that monies found/find their way to those nutters.
and to tar 40million people with the same brush is ridiculous, true, sorry.

""Here's the point, genius: the American people have no more control over what the United States government does than you do.""
mmmmm, well you should have in a democracy. just didn't really know or really care is my view. and it seems to me that pressure groups always come out on top, because 90%of voters in most countries are apathetic. so extremists can previal whilst actually having little support.

the USA is THE country and has VAST power, wealth and influence but has a largely apathetic and ignorant voting public.(then again so do most countries)
so maybe in some ways the american people ARE the problem ?????

but the whole subject isn't the kind to be debated here, that is true, got drawn into it irresistably..............
then again, the thread is still top of the charts !!!!!!
and if you read the link submitted by RobR, you can see there is some truth in my original comment. some soul searching is being done, a lot of people agree with me..........

Deckard
03-26-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by stevey
the USA is THE country and has VAST power, wealth and influence but has a largely apathetic and ignorant voting public.(then again so do most countries)
so maybe in some ways the american people ARE the problem ?????This is a topic which you demonstrate little knowledge of. The voters of the United States do not get to vote on topics or policies; they are not the problem.

stevey
03-26-2002, 11:10 AM
i know, fair enough.

no voter in any democracy votes on actual detailed polices etc
i wonder if we ought to??
but the overall views of a population should filter up to the government hopefully ????
maybe not always, my view is that most voters are ignorant and apathetic and thats a problem for all democracies.
currently in the UK we have Animal Rights terrorists, who may acheive many of their aims thru terrorism(they have very extreme views by the way), although they have i bet about 0.01% support in the population. terrorism is not democratic .

anyway
the situation in Northern Ireland was never a suitable topic for discussion here, you were right, (in fact politics as a whole), so thats it, back to jokey comments or none at all, and begging help with coding ........

Deckard
03-26-2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by stevey
i wonder if we ought to??I think so. I would entertain the notion of a quarterly (or reasonably often) nationwide vote on topics normally addressed by the legislative branch. There would be many things to work out, but I believe it could be done.


Originally posted by stevey
but the overall views of a population should filter up to the government hopefully ????Yes, yes, yes! A government should be a tool of the people.


Originally posted by stevey
my view is that most voters are ignorant and apathetic and thats a problem for all democracies.I agree. In fact, I suspect this is the reason the government has such overwhelming power: enough people don't see it as a problem, or just don't care. However, it may not make a difference. I care, I vote, and I have no impact ;)