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ehsiq
09-14-2001, 01:56 PM
something that nobody sais except Scourfish.
that religion started this, well, not started it but without religion
these planes would not have crashed.
these fanatic idiots were told that they will go to heaven with
60 virgins each and they will live there forever hapilly...bull****

and you know where is the ****ty thing? they do not think that
they are doing anything wrong, they are very comfordable with
their acts.

religion. each of these men could be a believer of an other religion
if their religion told them that "that thing is ok".
they could be christians. most of you people, who are christians
(remember from the other post) if you were born there you
would do the same thing.
or is there someone who claims that he chose to be a christian
and if he was born in another country he would turn to
christianity? yeah right.

each of there men could be you...try to think about that for a
while. do not say "noooooooooo" immidiately.

Unregistered
09-14-2001, 02:51 PM
you cannot damn other religions for the abuse of such a thing.

>they could be christians.

HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE BIBLE?!!?!?!?!
THIS IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED AND STATED WRONG IN EVERY WAY SO SHUT UP TILL YOU HAVE READ IT!!!!

>each of there men could be you...try to think about that for a
while<

nope that is impossible a true Christian could not sanction or commit such acts in the name of the Christ. READ THE BIBLE AND SEE THAT THIS IS FACT!!!

>and if he was born in another country he would turn to
christianity? yeah right<

have you ever looked objectivly at the alternatives?

the Theory of Evolution? heh what crap this is no evidence,and ITS NOT EVEN SCIENTIFICLY A THEORY!!
and im gonna buy that crap.

Christianity is of the few religions that do not claim to flow from a mans revelation. it comes from GOD only.

a muslim
09-14-2001, 03:22 PM
I am just posting to tell you all that in Islam it is wrong to kill innocent civilians.I do not know who did this but if they were muslims then what they did was wrong.

Procyon
09-14-2001, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
you cannot damn other religions for the abuse of such a thing.

>they could be christians.

HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE BIBLE?!!?!?!?!
THIS IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED AND STATED WRONG IN EVERY WAY SO SHUT UP TILL YOU HAVE READ IT!!!!

>each of there men could be you...try to think about that for a
while<

nope that is impossible a true Christian could not sanction or commit such acts in the name of the Christ. READ THE BIBLE AND SEE THAT THIS IS FACT!!!

>and if he was born in another country he would turn to
christianity? yeah right<

have you ever looked objectivly at the alternatives?

the Theory of Evolution? heh what crap this is no evidence,and ITS NOT EVEN SCIENTIFICLY A THEORY!!
and im gonna buy that crap.

Christianity is of the few religions that do not claim to flow from a mans revelation. it comes from GOD only.

Perhaps you should take a look at the Nostradamus thread. But in summary, I'll advise you to read the Bible again yourself.

As for evolution, if you'd like to discuss that I'd be more than happy to engage in a scientific debate on another thread. Please prepare graphs, links to images of fossils, references to published scientific literature, and any other physical evidence you think supports your explanation of the origin of life.

no-one
09-14-2001, 04:32 PM
don't be a fool.

the burden of proof is on you.

not one word of the bible is false and there is nothing to disprove it.

and there is not a single legitimate thread of evidence supporting Evolution, it is a religion.

ehsiq
09-14-2001, 05:03 PM
lol, i think that Unregistered was joking, i am allmost sure about
that...
oh man, if you are joking it's cool, you must be a great person.
very few people can understand the reaction of a stack-minded
person with religion...lol, great job man!

to no-one

ohhhh ... ok man!!!! the bible speaks the truth..silly me!
and of course i must proove that a man named christ did not came
back from the grave...
........i cannot see how i can proove that...you are right...
THERE IS GOD.. A CHRISTIAN GOD
*ehsiq on the knees praying for his soul.

hahahhahahahahahahaahhahahaaa.

i do not want to start that again. those who believe..fine.that's it.

Barjor
09-14-2001, 05:14 PM
There is just as many Muslims that are upset over this terrorist attack as there is christians that are upset about it. IF these terrorists are from middle east they do not share the same belife as almost everyone else in that area. It is just as wrong to kill in the islam culture as it is in the christian culture. It is a wery dangerous path if we start to belive it is them against us. I think it is very ignorant to say the the bible and christianity should be the only true religion. I really hope there isn't anyone in here that belives that every single word in the bible is true. I hope that people who are \ tries to be programmers can look at the world with a more objectiv and analyzing view then that. Don't be so narrow minded that you blindly belive everything in the bible. Some of the worst crimes in the history have been made in the name of god and christianity. If you compare the crimes done by Muslims and Christians the Christians are in a big lead. How many of you guys have actually read the Koran? I think that both the Koran and the bible pretty much tell us the same thing. The Talibans read the Koran just as twisted as some Religous groups here in Ame read the Bible. Don't judge all Muslims after them.
I am so sick and tired of narowminded, hypocritical racists so called christian. And no I am not judging all christians. Some of the nicest people I know are christians and even if I don't share there belives I stil respect and cheeris there company.

~Barjor

Barjor
09-14-2001, 05:17 PM
O and I almost forgot why I replayed
I agree with you to 100 % ehsiq

~Barjor

Zach L.
09-14-2001, 05:20 PM
In most religions, killing is not condoned. Even people that are not religious are usually opposed to it. Anyone, however, can misinterpret a religion (or belief) for their own purposes, and then justify their actions through that religion (or belief). This can be done by people regardless if what they do is expressly forbidden by the religion that they 'follow'. This can happen with Muslims, Christians, Jews, numerous religions I cannot even think of at the moment, and Atheists.

> and there is not a single legitimate thread of evidence supporting Evolution <
I don't even want to get into this right now. Just please, read a little about something before attacking it.

Zach L.
09-14-2001, 05:23 PM
> Don't be so narrow minded that you blindly belive everything in the bible. <
Nothing ever progresses when people blindly believe something. This is true for religions, sciences, etc. Very good point Barjor.

gamegod3001
09-14-2001, 07:02 PM
>In most religions, killing is not condoned. Even people that are not religious are usually opposed to it. Anyone, however, can misinterpret a religion (or belief) for their own purposes, and then justify their actions through that religion (or belief). This can be done by people regardless if what they do is expressly forbidden by the religion that they 'follow'. This can happen with Muslims, Christians, Jews, numerous religions I cannot even think of at the moment, and Atheists. <

I agree

no-one
09-14-2001, 07:12 PM
excellent point Zach.

>I don't even want to get into this right now.

neither do i.

Procyon
09-14-2001, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by no-one
don't be a fool. the burden of proof is on you.

not one word of the bible is false and there is nothing to disprove it.

I already linked to a long list of false predictions, errors, and internal contradictions. If you don't think this disproves anything in the Bible, would you care to give us an example of the type of thing that would disprove something in the Bible?



and there is not a single legitimate thread of evidence supporting Evolution, it is a religion.

I'll be quite happy to present my graphs, statistics, images, and so on, but only if you agree to do the same. For now, here's a list of topics I indend to address in support of the theory of evolution and the supporting (via time scale) theories in geology and astronomy.

- Fossils of extinct life forms

- Transitional fossils

- Distribution of current populations

- Observed natural selection in bacteria and viruses

- Heirarchial structure of life

- Homologous structures

- Vestigal structures

- Comparative protein studies

- Comparitive DNA studies

- Human genetic studies

- Ancient human artifacts and paintings

- Linguistics

- Radiometric dating

- Mineralogy

- Geologic strata

- Formation of mountains

- Formation of valleys

- Evidence of glaciation during ice ages

- Climatologic record from ice cores

- Continental drift

- Alternation of magnetic orientation in rocks of Mid-Atlantic rift and elsewhere

- Solar core helium concentration

- Stellar ages by heavy metal concentration

- Distance of stars and galaxies and the speed of light

- Evidence of condensation of sun, stars, and planets

- Craters on celestial bodies

- Rotation of spiral galaxies

- Expansion of galaxies and microwave background radiation

Of course, if you don't feel like discussing or explaining this anymore; feel free to shrink away from this discussion in cowardice.

iain
09-14-2001, 08:48 PM
to those that say no god is good and loving etc.
Why did this (any) god allow ten thousand , now read that number again ten thousand innocent people die in such a way.
provide a valid reason and i maybe a little further to your way of thinking.

Zach L.
09-14-2001, 08:58 PM
Procyon, what is the point of getting into that argument again? It will not change anyone's views (no matter what their views are), and will simply result in numerous people being angry at each other yet again.

Procyon
09-14-2001, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Zach L.
Procyon, what is the point of getting into that argument again? It will not change anyone's views (no matter what their views are), and will simply result in numerous people being angry at each other yet again.

I am aware that no one ever changes their opinion on the internet while arguing with anyone else. Mostly I do it in the hope that 'lurkers' who are relatively neutral on the issue and therefore don't actually post (but read the arguments) become aware of the great disparity in evidence between the two sides, and are aided in coming to the correct decision that way. Or at least I hope that I can embarrass creationists into saying something monstrously stupid or contradicting themselves, quieting their obnoxious unqualified dismissals of hundreds of years of research for a little while while they sort themselves out.


Originally posted by iain
Why did this (any) god allow ten thousand , now read that number again ten thousand innocent people die in such a way.

Indeed. I would not forgive anyone who had the power to stop Tuesday's events but did not use it, and I imagine no one else here would either. (Except Mr. Witch King, who was probably dancing in the street.) I don't see why it should be any different with God - why didn't he stop it if he's omnipotent?

mithrandir
09-14-2001, 11:37 PM
Religion is not to blame for this, evil is.


In most religions, killing is not condoned. Even people that are not religious are usually opposed to it. Anyone, however, can misinterpret a religion (or belief) for their own purposes, and then justify their actions through that religion (or belief). This can be done by people regardless if what they do is expressly forbidden by the religion that they 'follow'. This can happen with Muslims, Christians, Jews, numerous religions I cannot even think of at the moment, and Atheists.

Very true.


Why did this (any) god allow ten thousand , now read that number again ten thousand innocent people die in such a way.

God is not responsible for our actions.

ehsiq
09-15-2001, 04:55 AM
to Barjor

thanks for the support, not only you, in this post there are people
that agree with me.
:)

you are from norway? sweden?
i want to live there one day :)
BEAUTIFUL WOMEN
great system.

i still think that this unregister person is great!! lol

rick barclay
09-15-2001, 06:40 AM
>There is just as many Muslims that are upset over this terrorist attack as there is christians that are upset about it. <

Yeah:rolleyes: . Thet're so upset they went out into the streets
and danced in remorse for the victims. You are sickening.

>IF these terrorists are from middle east they do not share the same belife as almost everyone else in that area. <

Another bald-faced lie. There are celebrations all over the muslim world, even in this country parties were thrown among the muslims of New York City. You are all pigs, and as sure as I
heard the whining flights of military jets over my home last
night---you will pay for what you have done. Your history is
among the bloodiest of all mankind. Don't think you can fool
us by hiding behind your children and "peace-lovingness."
You are nazis, and you will share the same fate.

>you are from norway? sweden?
i want to live there one day
BEAUTIFUL WOMEN
great system.

i still think that this unregister person is great!! lol<

Do you see what asssholles they are? They come to our
country, use our resources, kill our citizens and themselves,
and their followers come to this board and mock us. Is it any
wonder why we wish them dead?

rick barclay

Zach L.
09-15-2001, 12:53 PM
You are all pigs, and as sure as I
heard the whining flights of military jets over my home last
night---you will pay for what you have done.
...
You are nazis, and you will share the same fate.

You sound like one yourself. I thought that we had for the most part, stopped being so prejudiced. You seem to think that all Muslims are killers. This could not be farther from the truth.



There are celebrations all over the muslim world, even in this country parties were thrown among the muslims of New York City.

Have you even heard anything that has been coming out of the Middle East? There are many, many people saddened by this event all over the world, including countries like Saudi Arabia, Palestine, etc.

Zach L.
09-15-2001, 12:57 PM
If you think that all Muslims should pay for what happened, then by that same logic, every American citizen should pay for a lot of stupid things that have been done in our country's history.

Perhaps we should all pay for the bombing of the federal building in Oaklahoma city. The bomber in that case was an American citizen.

a muslim
09-15-2001, 01:46 PM
Yeah . Thet're so upset they went out into the streets
and danced in remorse for the victims. You are sickening.


All the Palestenian know is that American support israel that always killing innocent Palestenian so the American are helping their enemies against them so when they heard that the American got bombed they were happy and they didn't know who got bombed innocent civilians or who and they are sad now that innocent people died but innocent Palestenian die all the time did you ever feel sad for them?

no-one
09-15-2001, 02:20 PM
>Or at least I hope that I can embarrass creationists into saying something monstrously stupid or contradicting themselves, quieting their obnoxious unqualified dismissals of hundreds of years of research for a little while while they sort themselves out. <

and why do you do this?

evoulutionist can't agree on anything and are constantly contradicting themselves and im not gonna argue about wether evolution is valid or not, but remember this the theory of evolution is not scientificly defined as a theory in that it is never been tested and or reproduced there fore it is a hypothesis not a theory.

>I don't see why it should be any different with God - why didn't he stop it if he's omnipotent?<

why do you ask such stupid questions? to try and turn people away from God? HOW MANY TIMES MUST THIS SAME QUESTION BE ANSWERED!!!

Procyon
09-15-2001, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by no-one
evoulutionist[sic] can't agree on anything and are constantly contradicting themselves and im[sic] not gonna[sic] argue about wether[sic] evolution is valid or not, but remember this the theory of evolution is not scientificly[sic] defined as a theory in that it is never been tested and or reproduced there fore[sic] it is a hypothesis not a theory.


It has been tested countless times. In fact, it has so much support that most scientists call evolution (as defined by 'a gradual but dramatic change in species over time') a fact. (The specific mechanism, neo-Darwinian evolution by descent with modification, remains a theory.) Please consult the list of supporting evidence I posted. Ninety percent of these items were not known until after 1859.

As I said before, if you really want to debate this issue, please prepare graphs, references, and links to direct physical evidence. This is a scientific issue, and that is how science is debated - not by mouthing off about whether it is or is not a 'theory'.


why do you ask such stupid questions? to try and turn people away from God? HOW MANY TIMES MUST THIS SAME QUESTION BE ANSWERED!!!

I ask because I want to understand the religious position better, as I haven't heard a satisfactory answer yet. The only excuse I've heard is something to the effect that it's not God's fault because humans did it, which doesn't even address the question. I'm not trying to 'turn people away from God'; I'm just asking a question that a lot of people must be asking right now. Perhaps you can answer it and turn people back towards God who are doubting their faith over this?

rick barclay
09-15-2001, 02:48 PM
>You sound like one yourself.<

Good! It will take a wild pig to kill one.

rick barclay

rick barclay
09-15-2001, 02:52 PM
>If you think that all Muslims should pay for what happened, then by that same logic, every American citizen should pay for a lot of stupid things that have been done in our country's history.

Perhaps we should all pay for the bombing of the federal building in Oaklahoma city. The bomber in that case was an American citizen.<

They are. They will. We have. We are. We will.

You sound like a moron.

rick barclay

Zach L.
09-15-2001, 02:54 PM
I know that sounded moronic. It was your logic.

rick barclay
09-15-2001, 02:55 PM
<All the Palestenian know is that American support israel that always killing innocent Palestenian so the American are helping their enemies against them so when they heard that the American got bombed they were happy and they didn't know who got bombed innocent civilians or who and they are sad now that innocent people died but innocent Palestenian die all the time did you ever feel sad for them?>

So go fight the goddamned Israelis and leave us the frick alone,
you beast! But it's too late for that, now. Not my doing.

rick barclay

ggs
09-15-2001, 02:56 PM
Procyron, I think you'll find most of the religious people on these boards think, they don't just mindlessly do what the (or what they think) the bible says.

And Procyron: your long-assed posts are almost as bad as a fundie post.. bring up one point/reference at a time, and when somebody pokes a hole in it fill in the hole with another point/reference or start on something else. There is just too much information.

You can believe in the Universe, or you can believe in God or you can believe in yourself. You know what I mean. Aside from the organizational differences (as well as the moral compass) of each religion, there's not much of a fundamental difference between each in terms of proof and believabilityaidsf [sic]. Haha! BEAT YOU TO IT!

btw: my current stance on evolution is that it's probably true... my being religious doesn't mean I automatically take everything in the bible literally, as Atheists have a disappointing tendency to.

Also, since I'm a coward and all that with school to do and extremely limited internet access, I probably won't reply much more.

rick barclay
09-15-2001, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Zach L.
I know that sounded moronic. It was your logic.

What logic. Whose? Explain yourself.

rick barclay

Zach L.
09-15-2001, 03:07 PM
> What logic. <
Good point.

> Whose? <
Yours.

> Explain yourself. <
If every Muslim civilian deserves to die because of the actions of one group. Then why don't all Americans deserve to die because of the actions of a single group of American terrorists.

no-one
09-15-2001, 03:18 PM
then one of the few answeres to your questions and i give a simple one not the best mind you, it is as follows:

God gave us free choice to do as we wan't if he prevented everything bad from happening he would deprive us of that choice by allowing only good and making him the ONLY choice. God gives all free will and if islam and terror is their choice then so be it.

and their other answeres to this question but this is a simple one and not the best.

"The young will ask for a sign, and they shall not recieve it."

Procyon
09-15-2001, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by ggs
Procyron, I think you'll find most of the religious people on these boards think, they don't just mindlessly do what the (or what they think) the bible says.

It is indeed bizarre that they get up defending the idea of the massacre of children and genocide, but never actually seem to do these things. It's as if they say that they the Bible is perfect and that they follow it to the last detail, but unconscously realize it's wrong and ignore vast swaths of it.


And Procyron: your long-assed posts are almost as bad as a fundie post.. bring up one point/reference at a time, and when somebody pokes a hole in it fill in the hole with another point/reference or start on something else. There is just too much information.

??? I posted an exorbitantly long list (which I admit I had cached from a 'conversation' with creationists about a year ago), but no one has addressed anything on it; no-one just gave the usual dismissal of evolution as 'not a theory' and made unsupported statements about 'evolutionists' contradicting each other. So I don't see what you mean.


You can believe in the Universe, or you can believe in God or you can believe in yourself. You know what I mean. Aside from the organizational differences (as well as the moral compass) of each religion, there's not much of a fundamental difference between each in terms of proof and believabilityaidsf [sic]. Haha! BEAT YOU TO IT!

I don't know about that. We can always run around in circles with philosophical arguments about the existence of souls, immortality, contradictions between omnipotence/omniscence, etc. But I'm sure no one's in the mood for that - I'm certainly not!


btw: my current stance on evolution is that it's probably true... my being religious doesn't mean I automatically take everything in the bible literally, as Atheists have a disappointing tendency to.

Atheists don't take it literally; that's just how it comes across when arguing with biblical inerrancy zealots. I do try to call attention to the fact that for all the talk about the bible being the "Good Book" and a paragon of virtue there is some really sickening immorality in there. The apparent morality of the Christian religion is based on a few choice passages; one could just as easily form a gruesome Christian death cult that focuses only on the worst of passages.


Originally posted by no-one
God gave us free choice to do as we wan't[sic] if he prevented everything bad from happening he would deprive us of that choice by allowing only good and making him the ONLY choice. God gives all free will and if islam and terror is their choice then so be it.

Well, that still doesn't really answer the question. So he refuses to interfere with anyone's free will by changing their beliefs. But couldn't he have made an anonymous tip to Logan airport Monday evening? Or caused the planes to suffer engine trouble before takeoff, and never take off? Why can't he do things like that?

a muslim
09-15-2001, 03:40 PM
So go fight the goddamned Israelis and leave us the frick alone,
you beast! But it's too late for that, now. Not my doing.


Why do you think it is Palestenian that are fighting you? By the way.. they said they found some flying stuff in Arabic the problem is even in out universities we don't study these stuff in Arabic it is all in English

rick barclay
09-15-2001, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Zach L.
> What logic. <
Good point.

> Whose? <
Yours.

> Explain yourself. <
If every Muslim civilian deserves to die because of the actions of one group. Then why don't all Americans deserve to die because of the actions of a single group of American terrorists.

aka Timothy McVeigh, right? What other American terrorist
group could you be talking about?

Was McVeigh part of an organized group? Yes, but certainly
not as well organized as the muslims.

Did McVeigh ever acknowledge that his group was actively seeking to destroy the U.S. Government? No.

Did McVeigh acknowledge that the Oklahoma attack was in
reprisal for the Branch Davidian and other federal fiascos? Yes.

Has there been any subsequent terrosit attack by McVeigh's
organization? No.

Wait a minute. This just isn't making any sense. What American
terrorist group are you talking about? Your reference to a
single group of American terrorists seems to be a hypothetical one. Is it? We're dealing with realities here, not wild speculations.
The KuKluxKlan? That was years ago. So long ago that Bobby
Kennedy cleaned them up. You think we should all die for the
acts of the KuKluxKlan? I daresay, many blacks probably agree.
I probably would if I were black. But still we have the fact that
the KuKluxKlan in no way approaches or ever began to approach
the reach, the resources, and the world-wide manpower of the
muslims. It just doesn't apply. Nothing you say does.

And one other thing, my good man, you are taking my words
literally and to extremes. If I ever did say that all muslims
deserve to die, and I don't deny or confirm that I have, it wasn't
used in an all-encompassing context but rather is meant to
include all those muslims who do not take some kind of active
opposition to Osama Bin Laden and terrorism under the guise
of Islam especially. When I start to see some active participation
by muslims against these terrorists, then and only then will
I change my opinion of them, and God knows I would be the
happiest man on earth to do so. I have to go. Dinner's on the table.

rick barclay

Zach L.
09-15-2001, 04:41 PM
Rick, I did not realize from your previous posts that we were taking motive into account here. Yes, McVeigh is an example, so is the KKK (which I hadn't thought of before), and to some extent the U.S. government. We have done some stupid things. No, I don't think Americans should all pay for these acts, but it seemed that earlier you thought all Muslims should pay for the acts of these terrorists. I agree that the terrorists that did this deserve to die. I apologize for misinterpreting what you were saying.

rick barclay
09-15-2001, 04:51 PM
As of last Tuesday this is an either you're part of the problem
or your part of the solution situation. There is no in between
anymore. If you think I'm crazy, go talk to a fireman, a
policeman, a union worker--these people would like to eat
muslims for dinner, seven days a week until they find Osama
Bin Laden.

rick barclay

ehsiq
09-15-2001, 04:57 PM
rick

Do you see what asssholles they are? They come to our
country, use our resources, kill our citizens and themselves,
and their followers come to this board and mock us. Is it any
wonder why we wish them dead?

i cannot see why you said that for me.... ?

anyway, from your posts i can see that you are a fanatic stupid
person, close minded and typical "not thinking" by yourself.
you are guided from all the ****ty things they are feeding you.
you are a small slave, a robot. you are sick man.

ehsiq
09-15-2001, 05:03 PM
anyway, i can understand why americans will bomb these cities.
and i am sure that it is not for revenge, it is because they want
to show to the world that they cannot **** around with people
(and in this case with america) and i think that it is probably the
correct thing to do, if they don't then every sick ******* will try
to make an attack.
so, america will show to the world the true power they have.
i don't think it is revenge, besides, how could it possible be
revenge to a nation just because of some crazy people?
not everyone is like rick.

rick barclay
09-15-2001, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by ehsiq
rick

Do you see what asssholles they are? They come to our
country, use our resources, kill our citizens and themselves,
and their followers come to this board and mock us. Is it any
wonder why we wish them dead?

i cannot see why you said that for me.... ?

anyway, from your posts i can see that you are a fanatic stupid
person, close minded and typical "not thinking" by yourself.
you are guided from all the ****ty things they are feeding you.
you are a small slave, a robot. you are sick man.

:p :D :p :D :p :D :p :D :p :D

yaddayaddayadda yaddayadda yaddayaddayadda yadda oooglio

rick (the mad) barclay

doubleanti
09-16-2001, 12:30 AM
::rick meets himself in ehsiq... who is on first? more on this later...:: [insert news theme music here...]

Govtcheez
09-17-2001, 06:55 AM
rick - your attempt as "logic" makes me sad to call myself an American. I can't believe that you are for the wholesale destruction of an entire religion. Muslims weren't responsible for this. Madmen were. Despite what you may think, that is NOT they same thing. Read this (a letter by an Afghani woman):
Dear Friends,
Yesterday I heard a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
Stone
Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio allowed that this would mean killing
innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but
"we're
at war, we have to accept collateral damage," and he asked, "What else can
we do? What is your suggestion?" Minutes later I heard a TV pundit
discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I
thought about these issues especially hard because I am from Afghanistan,
and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of
what's
been going on over there. So I want to share a few thoughts with anyone
who
will listen.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no
doubt
in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New
York.
I fervently wish to see those monsters punished. But the Taliban and Ben
Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan.
The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who captured Afghanistan in
1997 and have been holding the country in bondage ever since. Bin Laden is
a
political criminal with a master plan. When you think Taliban, think
Nazis.
When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of
Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."
It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity.
They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would love for
someone
to eliminate the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international
thugs
holed up in their country. I guarantee it. Some say, if that's the case,
why
don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban themselves? The answer
is, they're starved, exhausted, damaged, and incapacitated.
A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
disabled orphans in Afghanistan-a country with no economy, no food.
Millions of Afghans are widows of the approximately two million men killed
during the war with the Soviets. And the Taliban has been executing these
women for being women and have buried some of their opponents alive in
mass
graves. The soil of Afghanistan is littered with land mines and almost all
the farms have been destroyed . The Afghan people have tried to overthrow
the Taliban. They haven't been able to.
We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.
The trouble with that scheme is, it has already been done. The Soviets
took
care of that. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level
their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.
Eradicate
their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? There is no
infrastructure. Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late.
Someone already did all that. New bombs would only land in the rubble of
earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely.
In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to
move around. They'd slip away and hide (they have already, I hear). Maybe
the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too
fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping
bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this
horrific thing. Actually it would be making common cause with the
Taliban-
by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.
So what else can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and
trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground
troops. I think that when people speak of "having the belly to do what
needs
to be done" many of them are thinking in terms of having the belly to kill
as many as needed. They are thinking about overcoming moral qualms, about
killing innocent people. But it's the belly to die, not kill, that's
actually on the table. Americans will die in a land war to get Bin Laden.
And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through
Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks. To
get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would
they
let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will
other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. The invasion
approach is a flirtation with global war between Islam and the West. And
that is Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants and why he did
this thing. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there.
At the moment, of course, "Islam" as such does not exist. There are
Muslims
and there are Muslim countries, but no such political entity as Islam. Bin
Laden believes that if he can get a war started, he can constitute this
entity and he'd be running it. He really believes Islam would beat the
west.
It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into
Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a
holocaust in Muslim lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to
lose, even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong
about
winning, in the end the West would probably overcome-whatever that
would
mean in such a war; but the war would last for years and millions would
die,
not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden yes, but
anyone else?
I don't have a solution. But I do believe that suffering and poverty are
the
soil in which terrorism grows. Bin Laden and his cohorts want to bait us
into creating more such soil, so they and their kind can flourish. We
can't
let him do that. That's my humble opinion.
Tamim

ehsiq
09-17-2001, 09:17 AM
:(

nvoigt
09-17-2001, 09:44 AM
>They're not even the government of Afghanistan.

They rule the land. How do you define government ?

>When you think Taliban, think Nazis.
>When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler.
>And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews"

hm... from this comparison I'd say they are "the German populace" ...

And history teaches that the poor are those who start uprisings,
probably they don't have anything to loose but their bare life.

rick barclay
09-17-2001, 07:29 PM
The message coming out of Washington seems to me to be
that this will be was against terrorism everywhere, not
only the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. The language was
strong and unmistakeable in meaning. In line with this reasoning
was a warning for every American not to vent their outrage
on arabs and muslims and people who might be mistaken for
them.

I agree with this. We must destroy Bin Laden and terrorism
at its root. Free thinking arabs and muslims everywhere
should join us in the cause. My only reservation is that it
remains to be seen whether or not they join us, do
nothing (acceptable), or support the other side. As an American
who appreciates his current mode of existence, I hope and
pray that the arabs and muslims choose to help us whip the
terrorists; there is so very much they can do, so much to
contribute and so much for them to gain in the way of respect
from other Americans, including jews, that I would think most
would jump at the chance to show their sincerity and prove
in the only way possible that they really mean what they say
about living in peace with all people. Arabs and Islamics must
take an active role in the fight against terrorism before they
will be given serious consideration as a benevolent people in
this country. That's all I'm saying: you say you're against
terroism? Prove it--and then I'll love you like I love my
fellow Man.

rick barclay

doubleanti
09-17-2001, 11:21 PM
so... what's our resolution? have a joint discussion and reply, too much fold on fold here a bit...