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hubris
05-30-2009, 02:01 PM
I have had a majority of polite, helpful and constructive responses to my questions and a few pompous rants, as well. I'm a beginner so they say the "eye rolling" responses to beginner questions is just axiomatic and to get used to it.

But I've read some really nasty responses to the extreme beginner questions and I've noticed that this is one of the only scientific fields who's culture is akin to artistic elitism. Much like writers, painters and sculptors, coders seem to take such joy and elation at knowing more than someone else, and driving the point through the laymans heart, like a French sommelier.

This is not a generalization, but an obvious trend, so If you're offended by my comment, you need to ask yourself WHY you are offended.

hubris

matsp
05-30-2009, 02:30 PM
I'm possibly one of the ones you target with this, as I often point out OTHER things that are wrong with someones code, than the bits the original post was referring to (e.g. somones code is not working right because of some calculation, and I point out that the code should be done differently in 5-6 different aspects)

I do this, because I feel that if it is not pointed out what is wrong in someones code, the person won't learn how to do it better.

The other times when I can be very sarcastic or elitist is when someone is trying to get us to do their homework.

--
Mats

EVOEx
05-30-2009, 02:36 PM
Actually, I've only seen those posts to people who deserve it (and to people who don't deserve it, posted by abachler).

Stupid questions are fine. But there are so many "Please do my homework for me"'s. And those will be insulted - and I'll happily join. Then there's those newbie's who get a good answer and offend the poster saying he's not right - even though he is (this one's not too common but in my relatively few posts I've had that at least once or twice, where I was sure I was right and I explained it properly). Then lastly there are those questions from newbies that get posted over and over and over and over again. Those where a simple search on either this site or google would reveal the answer literally a million-fold.

It's 100% safe to ask questions for newbies providing they search at least a bit for their answer first. And they actually want help with what they're doing, not a "do it for me". Thirdly, if you don't agree with an answer, provide intellectual feedback or if you simply fail to understand it, explain what you don't understand so the person can elaborate. And finally, adhere to the rules and common sense when posting.

I'd actually wish every person on this site would stop reading - or just answering - questions with titles like "Please help me" or "Urgent help needed".


So, summed up. If someone's flamed, either they deserved it or they are flamed by abachler (Or another troll that is yet to surface).


edit: I read matsp's posts. Matsp, I really, really don't hope the OP is referring to you. Because if he does, he's one of the people I referred to in my post, someone not willing to even learn to code.

Sebastiani
05-30-2009, 02:42 PM
>> I'm a beginner so they say the "eye rolling" responses to beginner questions is just axiomatic and to get used to it.

My guess is that it stems from the fact that nowdays people are more apt to ask questions before they've even gone over the basics of the language, which can be frustrating to those trying to help out. Back when I started programming, I read several books from cover to cover and practiced quite a bit before I posted even a single question on a message board. As a result, I generally received helpful advice.

>> But I've read some really nasty responses to the extreme beginner questions and I've noticed that this is one of the only scientific fields who's culture is akin to artistic elitism.

I bet if you got on a chemistry message board and asked "what kind of protons are metals made out of?" or such, you'd probably get some pretty ugly reprimands from the respondants, as well.

To be sure, you're always going to encounter trolls and rude people from time to time, but for the most part, at least, you should expect fairly constructive input.

hubris
05-30-2009, 02:57 PM
Actually matsp, you've given me some decent advice, so (at least for me) you don't qualify. I have a thick skin. I just worry about the guys/girls who don't, and might decide to abandon the field altogether. Code doesn't come easy for me. I work like a madman to maintain a C average and there is no tutoring for C++(only C) at my college. I guess I just have exagerated empathy.
Also, I should out myself on being an elitist snob when it comes to writing/composition. I'm not rude but I do tend to be a bit self important so...
All responses welcome.

hubris
05-30-2009, 03:02 PM
BTW, I agree with the "doing homework" thing. On the blender boards I always point guys to a tutorial when they ask for a .blend file (premade template) cause that's just plain lazy. So, I stand a bit corrected. When someone says "How do you do..." then they should be pointed to an online C manual and told to come back later. or if they are in college they should be told to read the chapters their instructor assigned them. Yes, if you ask a question you should at least have some code ready to look at.

BuzzBuzz
05-30-2009, 03:15 PM
"what kind of protons are metals made out of?"

Ah, trick question. Proton cars are made of plastic. Metal is made of metal - hence the name.

I am joking

Cactus_Hugger
05-30-2009, 03:52 PM
We get posts that are:

Broken and sloppy English - I'm not talking about posts where the OP doesn't speak English. These are native speakers just not taking the time to phrase their question. If you're going to be lazy with your post, don't expect a gracious reply.
Poorly formatted posts - sometimes the poster is wet under the ears, but even then. If you want to be a programmer, then you should figure out how to post correctly. Remember the generic advice about "sit back at watch for a bit, and get a feel for the forum/board/room/etc."? [code] tags. We waste so much time getting OPs to use [code] tags, and then, indentation. (And we take the time to do this - hardly elitist. Exteremly patient.)
Off the mark questions - Questions that you either can't directly answer, or you know that you don't want to. These are the ones where you have to poke further at the OP and ask "what are you actually trying to do..." because the way they're phrasing the question, you're almost sure that they've already taken a wrong turn somewhere.
Unanswerable questions - Questions that require a lot of background to answer. These are either really vague or simply don't have an answer. Sometimes, the OP doesn't even seem willing to accept that there's not an answer. "Is <= -1 faster than < 0 ?"
The sheer amount of ignorance - I'm going to show my "elitist snobs" colors now. There are so many "programmers" out there, and some on the boards, who have little to no clue. (Not that I haven't been proved wrong on more than one occaision myself.) Often, we have to not only provide the correct answer, but correct a false and misleading answer at the same time. Those who don't know why 16 bits is not enough to represent a Unicode code point, what virtual memory is or why it doesn't always apply, why you should not make assumptions about the widths of your datatypes (or know when you can accept that assumption), or why fwrite/send(... pointer to complex datatype ...) is generally the wrong idea.

MK27
05-30-2009, 05:06 PM
I generally try to be as helpful and courteous as I can, unless you are a moron, or really dumb. In cases like that I try to be sarcastic instead. Also, with idiots. If you are a dumb moron, or an idiot and you don't recognize sarcasm, it might seem like elitism.

Then there are people who are just plain stupid and make the kind of stupid mistakes that stupid people make. Those circumstances almost cry out for snobbery, just to stem the tide of stupidity. Finally, thoughtless, lazy, and intoxicated people who think I am thinking/working hard and staying sober so I can solve some problem for them don't get respect.

I enjoy trying to help people at cboard and appreciate the help I get and have gotten, and try to foster an environment conducive to that. If that means telling stupid people who are dumb morons that they are stupid dumbtish morons, then I consider that to be not elitism but the opposite: keeping the world safe for egalitarianism. Everybody should feel comfortable to ask an intelligent question, unless that is impossible for you because you are so godblessedly stupid. Then life is hard moron. Oh well.

[I actually clean the ....... out of this to make Bubba happy, who is a great moderator and much appreciated for his wisdom and insightful ways.]

SyntaxError
05-30-2009, 06:52 PM
I generally try to be as helpful and courteous as I can, unless you are a ........... or a moron. In cases like that I try to be sarcastic instead. Also, with idiots. If you are ......., a moron, or an idiot and you don't recognize sarcasm, it might seem like elitism.


Hmmm, I'm the exact opposite. I generally try to be a ......... or a moron. Unless you are courteous in which case I simply try to be an idiot.

nonoob
05-30-2009, 07:59 PM
MK27's reply is case-in-point. I feel that sometimes a poster does not know they are ........ morons. They've made such obvious errors in their beginner code - probably due to poor teacher... or maybe it's just par for the course to start off doing the basic mistakes we all grew up through. To assume it's due to inherent .......... is a form of snobbery. By the third program, many noobs miraculously go from .........-moron to pretty decent thinkers (which they were all along but it just didn't show through the thick haze of syntax problems).

In my experience this board seems to consist of three or four prime respondents who seem to have too much time to be actually employed and doing actual programming in an industrial environment. The standards ....... The "i must have the last word" egotists, and the ones that jump on perfectly valid explanations but they happen to beat them to the punch. You know who you are.

MK27
05-30-2009, 08:23 PM
In my experience this board seems to consist of three or four prime respondents who seem to have too much time to be actually employed and doing actual programming in an industrial environment. The standards nazis and the ones that jump on perfectly valid explanations but they happen to arrive sooner than they. You know who you are.

Well, I will admit right now that I do try and answer questions in the C Programming forum enough to qualify as one of "three or four prime respondents who seem to have too much time to be actually employed and doing actual programming in an industrial environment" (but I have nothing to do with the "standards nazis" ;) ). Bang on. I have never been employed programming beyond minor web work, but in the past year or so it has been my intention to do so eventually, and to take advantage of a time during which I do not have to work* to do some learning. So I am working on the computer much and tune into cboard because it suits my attention span. I'm always learning new things here, sometimes in the middle of (observing) discussions that seemed irrelevant. If enough of that is usefully absorbed then my time is well spent.

However, my impression of some of the other culprits is that they are in fact "employed and doing actual programming", whether the environment is industrial or extra-terrestrial. I can honestly say that I am not afraid to give *incorrect* advice here because just when you thot you were safe to be a gambler and a dumbass some elitest snob who was watching the whole time will show up and pull your rug. I know that model is hard to perceive in some forums but IMO it is close to incredible in it's intensity here at cboard.

The point being, just because I answer your question instead of GOD doesn't mean GOD isn't listening and has quality controls in effect. Always check back later when you've gotten a post and an answer (even if you like that answer) to see if a higher power hasn't intervened since then. If, after 2000+ posts in ten months, I thought these higher powers had been shown up as charlatans, liars, etc, from which nothing can be learned I wouldn't be wasting my time here. Which is to say, if you know a *better* programming forum let me know ASAP.

*it could have been a foreshortened period of coke and ..........s somewhere warm and exotic -- perhaps this is all a mistake.

MK27
05-30-2009, 08:55 PM
Oh I almost forgot this part:


this is one of the only scientific fields who's culture is akin to artistic elitism. Much like writers, painters and sculptors, coders seem to take such joy and elation at knowing more than someone else

Having known people who made a living writing and painting and sculpting*, I believe that you do not, hubris, because I just do not see this trait of taking "such joy and elation at knowing more than someone else" amongst them; I think that opinion might be best equated with a facial tick (a sad affliction of yours).

Vis. "scientific field": programming is also very much "an applied science" like engineering. My dad was an engineer and they are definitely snobs that way; if you try to tell an engineer something about something in their field of expertise about which you do not really understand, consider yourself lucky if you get sarcasm. Another very popular tactic is a silent smile foreshadowing the consequences of your mistake.

*plus I wrote a book once, photocopied and spiral bound, sold <50 copies mostly to people I knew. While that may not make me a writer, I do suffer from elation because I know more than you about something.

tabstop
05-30-2009, 09:19 PM
respondents who seem to have too much time to be actually employed and doing actual programming in an industrial environment.

I believe the polite term is "academics", thankyouverymuch.

Akkernight
05-30-2009, 09:45 PM
People should not waste their time ranting out of topic... If someone asks a question and posts code, do not correct an other part of the code 'cause you have NO ......... IDEA if the person who asked the question knows it ....... and just put a temporary solution or something. Thank you.

I'm getting so .......... tired of this that I just ignore the one who does this and do not even tell them to stay on topic any longer... You peeps enjoy too much to prove yourselves!

Also, why do you waste time harassing people who only need help and don't understand nor have the talents to explain? Yes I'm talking about the homework people to, I personally don't give a ........, since it's their lives. But what I mean is that there's no .......... need to go at them, but instead you could prove that your balls have dropped and just say no and that homework won't be done for people on these forums and then let the moderators remove the thread...

Last I believe that those who demotivate others just to make them some how 'go up' are the worst workers ( and programmers ) this world has to offer.

P.S. Those who go at those who are weaker can literally go ........ themselves or ask an old man to do so for them and yes I'm tired, frusterated and have had it with these people I now rant about.

prog-bman
05-30-2009, 09:53 PM
I think the responses on this board are usually just right for the questions asked.

People have different personalities and that is the way of the world. No one has ever been anything but helpful to me, when I ask a question.

Some of the responses can be "mean" but usually that is out of the frustration of the copy / paste homework assignment, with the added can someone program this for me.

This is a message board for programming so I don't see the need to dance around someone's feelings. But that being said, I don't think there is a need for someone to be flat out rude to a beginner question(Not that I really can think of an instance of that).

zacs7
05-31-2009, 12:43 AM
Yeah, there are a few, but some of the questions deserve it.

The biggest one (IMO) has a post-count-graph of (see attachment).

But they've seemed to stop being so "elite", see if you can work out who it is :-)

... no it's not matsp (because he's not a snob).

Sebastiani
05-31-2009, 01:08 AM
Huh - I thought I knew who you were talking about until I noticed that the plot actually peaks above 9,446 posts...so I guess I was wrong. :D

zacs7
05-31-2009, 06:53 AM
Hehe, I don't think they're a snob... Perhaps I should have put a few dates on it ;)

cyberfish
05-31-2009, 07:39 AM
People should not waste their time ranting out of topic... If someone asks a question and posts code, do not correct an other part of the code 'cause you have NO ........ING IDEA if the person who asked the question knows it GOD DAMN WELL and just put a temporary solution or something. Thank you.

What if they DON'T?

For example, in a thread I just posted in.
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/cplusplus-programming/116396-program-crashing-when-i-use-io.html

I pointed out something wrong in what's not even posted.

When I post a question, I would much prefer people to point out all the problems (or potential problems) they notice, or potential ways to do something better.

This way, when I post a question, I almost always learn a lot more than just the answer to the question.

Afterall, they are spending THEIR precious time helping me for free.

If I am aware there is a problem in my code and would like to ignore it for now, I would say so in the post.

Conversely, when I answer questions, I would, by default, point out everything I think is not optimal ("wrong" or not) by my humble opinion, unless the poster specifically says something like


I know the code has numerous bugs and there are ways to do things better, but I would like to ignore them for now.

(I sometimes do that, too, when it's something I just wrote in 30 seconds just to prove something)
(hint: add it to your sig :D)

medievalelks
05-31-2009, 09:34 AM
This is not a generalization, but an obvious trend, so If you're offended by my comment, you need to ask yourself WHY you are offended.

I'm offended by beginners who come here expecting to be spoon fed without cracking a book or even Googling for help first.

VirtualAce
05-31-2009, 04:23 PM
I realize this debate is a bit heated but that does not give any of us the right to use outright profanity which is clearly against the forum guidelines. I will clean the posts up but if there are any more posts with blatant profanity and a clear disregard for the guidelines I will close this thread.

Let's breathe a bit and bring it down a few notches.

Akkernight
05-31-2009, 09:10 PM
Cyberfish, I hate it when people waste time on answering everything else than my question, and I hate it so damn much when people have to write a billion lines of explanation of the problem without being asked to do so -.-

An example:

Me - "So I dunno where I should put the deletion of that pointer"
'Helper' - "Pointers point to memory in your RAM and bla bla bla bla thus need to be deleted for bla bla bla, I know pointers are hard but you'll learn them eventually"

Now that makes me just loose it and loose all faith in humanity D:

ಠ_ಠ
05-31-2009, 09:13 PM
Cyberfish, I hate it when people waste time on answering everything else than my question, and I hate it so damn much when people have to write a billion lines of explanation of the problem without being asked to do so -.-

An example:

Me - "So I dunno where I should put the deletion of that pointer"
'Helper' - "Pointers point to memory in your RAM and bla bla bla bla thus need to be deleted for bla bla bla, I know pointers are hard but you'll learn them eventually"

Now that makes me just loose it and loose all faith in humanity D:

so that's what you were talking about

cyberfish
05-31-2009, 09:21 PM
haha I see what you mean.

Point out potential problems is one thing, needless elitism is another.

medievalelks
05-31-2009, 10:05 PM
Cyberfish, I hate it when people waste time on answering everything else than my question, and I hate it so damn much when people have to write a billion lines of explanation of the problem without being asked to do so -.-

An example:

Me - "So I dunno where I should put the deletion of that pointer"
'Helper' - "Pointers point to memory in your RAM and bla bla bla bla thus need to be deleted for bla bla bla, I know pointers are hard but you'll learn them eventually"

Now that makes me just loose it and loose all faith in humanity D:

Can you point to a real example instead of a contrived one?

Sebastiani
05-31-2009, 10:35 PM
>> Now that makes me just loose it and loose all faith in humanity D:

The reason people don't like to give straight answers is that they are typically trying to get the OP to think about the problem more carefully. A lot of times, this is the actual root of the problem. Whether it's because of lazy-mindedness, ignorance, skewed perspective, or whatever, there is some lack of understanding that manifests itself as a proliferation of questions. If one were to answer these individually and without explanation, nothing would really be gained, as the misunderstanding might never be cleared up. Unfortunately, those with questions are often overwhelmed and eventually grow impatient, and as a result miss out on so much useful advice, which is a real shame.

Akkernight
06-01-2009, 01:16 AM
medievalelks, I'm not gonna dig through my MSN log...

laserlight
06-01-2009, 01:55 AM
I'm not gonna dig through my MSN log...
Why do you ask for help via instant messaging? The advantage of a public message board is that you have multiple people who might answer your question, and then more people who would review and possibly correct the answers.

Akkernight
06-01-2009, 02:28 AM
It's faster and I know some knowledgeful people... Also, MSN has a nudge button! :O There's no nudge button on the boards ._.

cyberfish
06-01-2009, 04:06 AM
An example -
http://cboard.cprogramming.com/c-programming/116417-string-contents-into-structure-help.html

Are you saying vart shouldn't have pointed out the problems with fflush(stdin) and gets() because they were not asked for, and should assume that the OP already knows about those and is just ignoring them?

Akkernight
06-01-2009, 04:36 AM
nah, infact he was even the last one, so he didn't go off-topic while the topic was still active... But I dunno if someone still gets annoyed by it tho...

laserlight
06-01-2009, 04:54 AM
It's faster
Yeah, some people who have asked me for help via instant messaging have cited that as well. But this is a quality versus time trade-off: without review, the quality of help given, even by an expert, is more likely to be poor.


nah, infact he was even the last one, so he didn't go off-topic while the topic was still active... But I dunno if someone still gets annoyed by it tho...
Why does it matter if anyone is annoyed? I am annoyed that tabstop did not point out those deficiencies in the posted code, because it may come to pass that I will have to maintain a program written by timjon1, and all this assuming that timjon1 knows what he/she is doing will come back and bite me.

cyberfish
06-01-2009, 05:08 AM
nah, infact he was even the last one, so he didn't go off-topic while the topic was still active... But I dunno if someone still gets annoyed by it tho...


So it would be wrong if he posted it while the problem hasn't been solved?

Akkernight
06-01-2009, 06:03 AM
oh damn.. Well I meant to add that those weren't bibles of text, so I personally wouldn't get annoyed...

laserlight, I just know them in IM by other occasions, and then just don't bother going on the boards. Also, you shouldn't annoy people... Might end bad ;)

medievalelks
06-01-2009, 11:29 AM
Well, all I can say to the OP and to Akkernight is don't ever, ever post a question on comp.lang.c++ - you'll need much thicker skin. This place is Stuart Smalley on C++ in comparison.

sean
06-01-2009, 11:40 AM
all this assuming that timjon1 knows what he/she is doing will come back and bite me.

Agreed - that's also the reason people are so hostile to 'do my homework' threads. Very often, the combination of the assignment posted and the explanation given by the poster reveal that this is a person who has already advanced far beyond where there actual skills should take them. I used to work with a guy who had obviously had his homework done for him by other group members through most of his time in school. He had assumed that it wasn't really that hard to figure out, and was just 'busy work' that someone else could do faster. He had a rude awakening when he knew enough to get hired but not enough to solve a real problem.

I'm very open to criticism on things I may have missed because I learned long ago that I make a lot of mistakes. I overlook things, etc.. that only makes me a bad programmer if I don't check myself or accept input from others.

indigo0086
06-01-2009, 01:10 PM
I love delusions of grandeur programmers. I mean I knew college programming assignments were just busy work, but I still did them on my own. It's one think to Think you know something, even if it's easy, and another thing actually doing it.

VirtualAce
06-01-2009, 07:08 PM
I'm very open to criticism on things I may have missed because I learned long ago that I make a lot of mistakes. I overlook things, etc.. that only makes me a bad programmer if I don't check myself or accept input from others.


Don't we all. Maybe it requires work experience or experience working with other programmers on a project to realize that we are all wrong at times and would do well to listen to some constructive criticism. What is very cool about this is the more you are open to criticism the better you learn to take it and the less impact it has on your emotions. At that point you can take the criticism for what it is - not an attack on your person or who you are but rather an opportunity to learn and improve your craft.

I make it a point to always accept criticism of my code even if I do not agree with it. It does not mean I change my code at another's whim but it does mean I'm open to learning new approaches and new techniques. I'm finding that you eventually reach a point where you do not have to defend your code but that it defends itself. If you are always defending your own code then I would say you need to be more open to the suggestions and criticisms of other people.

None of us here are beyond making mistakes and I make plenty of them although I try my best every time I code. The difference between a good programmer and a bad programmer, in my opinion, is that a good programmer is open to learning and open to criticism and a bad programmer insists their way is the right way without ever taking into account any other way.

brewbuck
06-01-2009, 11:45 PM
I'm getting so .......... tired of this that I just ignore the one who does this and do not even tell them to stay on topic any longer... You peeps enjoy too much to prove yourselves!

It isn't about proving anything. A lot of the questions here are like, "Can you help me fix my flat tire?" when the larger problem is that the entire car is on fire.

Ignoring the elephant in the room is ALWAYS a mistake.

Salem
06-02-2009, 12:10 AM
> A lot of the questions here are like, "Can you help me fix my flat tire?" when the larger problem is that the entire car is on fire.
Nice one :)

zacs7
06-02-2009, 12:36 AM
Ignoring the elephant in the room is ALWAYS a mistake.
It's not my fault my girlfriend is fat :(

Driver
06-02-2009, 02:15 AM
OK, I haven't had (or got) time to read every post in this thread, but I've got the general gist of the topic and would like to make a comment or two.

I don't post often here but I do look around for answers, etc. from time to time.

I thoroughly agree that topic lines such as "Urgent help needed" are pretty useless and do nothing to indicate the nature of the question. In addition, I also agree that it's plain wrong to come here asking for homework help when it's clear that no effort has been made ahead of posting. Folk should research before they post to indicate that they understand what they're asking and will understand any decent answers posted (or at least find out how to understand them). Otherwise, nastiness and sarcasm is only to be expected.

As for homework, surely the first port of call should be to ask the teacher/lecturer? If the explanation given in class was not sufficient, would s/he not be the best person to help in the first instance?

And there is an awful lot of sense in articles such as this one (http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html).

However, where I strongly disagree is when anyone, and I mean ANYONE, feels justified in posting rubbish such as RTFM, STFW, GIYF, or any other form of GFAM on its own without justification. Some googling about on RTFM also turned up Tom Kyte's Oracle blog:

Tom Kyte on RTFM (http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2005/07/rtfm.html)

I think he speaks a lot of sense when it comes to RTFM.

If anyone reading this ever feels justified in posting an unqualified RTFM (or similar), then you have to ask why you think it's justified to potentially waste someone else's time in the future who may find your post in a search. Put yourself in a newbie's shoes who does believe in searching around the manual and Googling for answers before posting, only to find that their question is so commonly asked on the Web and the only answer ever dished up is STFW. The STFW replies have spammed out the sensible replies that would have readily showed up had it not been for the STFW spammers.

By the way, I did an STFW on 'Foonly Flurbamatic'. You ought to try it sometime if you haven't already done so :)

medievalelks
06-02-2009, 06:50 AM
Put yourself in a newbie's shoes who does believe in searching around the manual and Googling for answers before posting, only to find that their question is so commonly asked on the Web and the only answer ever dished up is STFW.

I always STFW first before telling someone else to Let Me Google That For You. I would be surprised if the instances of the case described were not in the overwhelming minority.

MK27
06-02-2009, 07:30 AM
I always STFW first before telling someone else to Let Me Google That For You. I would be surprised if the instances of the case described were not in the overwhelming minority.

Ditto, as with LIUITFM (which is almost a fictional French androgenous subject radio station). Usually it is very obvious this has not happened yet...and if it has, I would hope the dumb lil' moron can get a sentence in edgewise, vis. "Okay, but in the FM it says..."

whiteflags
06-03-2009, 05:21 PM
oh damn.. Well I meant to add that those weren't bibles of text, so I personally wouldn't get annoyed...

laserlight, I just know them in IM by other occasions, and then just don't bother going on the boards. Also, you shouldn't annoy people... Might end bad ;)

Give the other person a break. Maybe he or she is not good at teaching, or it might be a gross oversimplification to explain things in a single sentence or a paragraph. Find me a "bible of text" that did not strive to be informative, and I may agree with you then.

As for being annoying: there is a biblical quote along the lines of "first the log, and then the speck" (Luke 6:42) that you would do well to read. You are free to chastise others about being annoying when you cease to be that yourself:


It's faster and I know some knowledgeful people... Also, MSN has a nudge button! :O There's no nudge button on the boards ._.

It's unremarkable that you would actually cuss out people who take their time to sit down and help you thoroughly, and if they help you privately you turn into an impatient dick.