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Mario F.
07-02-2008, 02:01 PM
just don't know what to say with the recent death of a 42 year old woman in an USA hospital. I'm completely shocked at the cruel coldness of the images and what they revealed.

This is not, I can guarantee you, new. A little all over the world we hear these stories here and there. Just this year, a 82 year old woman died in a Portuguese hospital after begging for help (yes help! in an hospital) for 4 hours. She was waiting her turn... and died on the bench, just like today.

I confess I shed a tear then, as I did today, when I saw of this poor woman fall to the floor and die there, alone, in an hospital of all places, as people passed by and others distanced themselves. As security personel and even a doctor looked at her agonizing body as if it was a paper someone thrown at the floor, and kept on moving their way, completely oblivious to the fact a human being (f...!) was dying on the floor.

That woman had the most cruel death I have ever witnessed in my entire life. I swear she had. I was in Angola in '92 and saw some pretty ugly sights... very ugly... but at least in a war there's passion. She didn't even had that. She had the worst treatment one can give an human being. She was poor, disposable, ugly and she was sick. She was useless and a nuisance. She was black trash not worth society's effort, despite the fact she most probably worked more in a single day than a singer of football player works in an year.

What the hell is happening to us!?
What is this hellish thing we call society? When will it stop?... and I will say it right here... when will we BEAR ARMS!?

some days... some days I just hate everyone.

DavidP
07-02-2008, 02:26 PM
Could you please link to an article of some kind so we could see the source of what you're talking about?

abachler
07-02-2008, 02:43 PM
Please dont feed the troll, he QQ's about this sort of thing every now and then. He rarely posts his source, almost never checks it, and generally exagerates it.

Daved
07-02-2008, 03:07 PM
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jm4XaHI1ZeI63NhzDXsVHhNcBCOg (the New York death is what Mario is referring to).

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lKUwBCIBzA

Daved
07-02-2008, 03:11 PM
BTW, I am saddened, but unfortunately not surprised by this situation. Even human beings with good intentions can allow such tragedies to occur right before their eyes.

I certainly don't think bearing arms is the answer, and in fact that would be an example of the problem, not a solution to it.

maxorator
07-02-2008, 03:12 PM
Please dont feed the troll, he QQ's about this sort of thing every now and then. He rarely posts his source, almost never checks it, and generally exagerates it.
The fact that you don't focus on the case and only talk about sources shows you're just another bureaucrat, who thinks numbers and papers are more important than human lives...

Mario F.
07-02-2008, 03:15 PM
I saw it on national tv over here. Hence no linking. Thanks for that Daved.

As for you Abachler, I'm not impressed, as usual.

medievalelks
07-02-2008, 05:11 PM
Hey, doctors and nurses in the US are forbidden to help a baby that survives a late term abortion, and some politicians support that because they need the money and support from the abortion lobby. We've truly lost our humanity.

VirtualAce
07-02-2008, 06:13 PM
Apparently this hospital has had a bad history of mistreatment of psych patients. I would not take this one isolated incident and generalize it to the state of the entire U.S. health care system. This is a terrible tragedy but action is being taken to ensure this never happens again. Overall health care in the U.S.A, while not cheap, is very very good. There are mishaps, negligence, and accidents but no system is perfect.

I went to the emergency room on a weekend for a toothache and only waited for about 20 minutes before being treated and released. They gave me a shot for the pain and it held me until I could get to the dentist on Monday.

While on a trip I had a rock fly into my eye while on the highway. Don't ask me how this happened but the rock flew off someone's tire and sailed through my half-open driver side window and hit me right in the eye. I went to the ER and was out within the hour with a shot, prescription, and referral should things not improve. It was VERY expensive but my company paid for most of it even though it was out of my network.

I took my wife in when she was entering labor and she was wheeled into a room, placed in bed and hooked up so we could hear the baby's heartbeat all within 10 minutes of arriving at the hospital. This happened at around 1pm which is certainly not the best time in the world. No complaints here.

A co-worker went in for open-heart surgery and didn't even have to be moved to a more advanced hospital. Our local hospital did the surgery right there (most now have heart clinics) with a new special procedure that allows for quicker recovery and is less traumatic on the patient. The surgery was 9 hours and he was on his feet within a week.

Let's not take one incident and use it as a measuring stick for the whole. And...remember...the U.S media loves this stuff. The more negative the better b/c the better it sells. They usually get the story wrong and/or exaggerate it beyond belief. This story is indeed sad and I'm not excusing the hospital's actions. But I am throwing in a reality check that this is not the norm.



Hey, doctors and nurses in the US are forbidden to help a baby that survives a late term abortion, and some politicians support that because they need the money and support from the abortion lobby.


I absolutely detest late term abortions. However it should also be cited that this is the law and by helping the baby survive is against the wishes of the patient and against the law. If you feel this is hideous as I do then perhaps we need to elect better politicians. This does not reflect on the state of U.S. health care and is more about a pro-choice/pro-abortion battle that has been waged for years. The health agencies MUST follow the letter of the law and if this is law then they follow it. Let's hope we get our head's our of our butt's and start electing people who are fit for the task so we can stop this nonsense. So don't blame your health care system...blame Capitol Hill. Besides it was my last understanding that late term abortions were illegal.

medievalelks
07-02-2008, 06:36 PM
I absolutely detest late term abortions. However it should also be cited that this is the law and by helping the baby survive is against the wishes of the patient and against the law. If you feel this is hideous as I do then perhaps we need to elect better politicians. This does not reflect on the state of U.S. health care and is more about a pro-choice/pro-abortion battle that has been waged for years. The health agencies MUST follow the letter of the law and if this is law then they follow it. Let's hope we get our head's our of our butt's and start electing people who are fit for the task so we can stop this nonsense. So don't blame your health care system...blame Capitol Hill. Besides it was my last understanding that late term abortions were illegal.

Sorry, I wasn't blaming the HCS, but the politicians and the pro-abortion movement. Sad thing is, a baby born naturally premature at the same stage is considered a patient.

zacs7
07-03-2008, 01:48 AM
It's obvious (to me anyway) why the doctors didn't help. It's a phsyc ward, they probably get people groaning and laying on the floor all the time. Don't flame me :)

In a way it's like crying wolf, except they probably don't know they're crying wolf.

abachler
07-03-2008, 01:35 PM
The fact that you don't focus on the case and only talk about sources shows you're just another bureaucrat, who thinks numbers and papers are more important than human lives...

1000 people is a number too. So which is more humane, focusing on numbers or on the individual. Is it more humane to let 1000 people die to save 1? At some level you have to go by the numbers becuase it is the only way to avoid playing god and making judgements on peoples relative worth. What about the 3 people that might have died if they had stopped to help what statistically is not an emergency.



The two deaths, which occurred at hospitals in Los Angeles and New York, have led to lawsuits and ultimately helped precipitate the closure of one of the facilities, reports said.


So how many people are going to die now because there is no hospital anymore because emoitionalist decisions were made.

SO what was she there for, obviously no doctors ignored her, as the article stated only other rpatients and a security guard who I'm sure isnt just moon lighting from his normal job as head of surgery. It was a psychiatric hospital to begin with, which means you GET patients with attention seeking behavioral disorders. None of this was discussed in the article, becuase it doesnt make for sensational news stories. Was she even checked in or was she dumped there by her so called concerned family members, who I am sure will cry crocodile tears at her funeral while they count how much they can get from a lawsuit. What is truly sad isnt that she died, but that the media, the public at large and Mario F. treat her death with such casual indifference that they cant even be bothered to investigate it beyond the sensationalist surface story.

Mario F.
07-03-2008, 02:00 PM
Your logic is astounding. "Attention seeking disorder"... precious insight. It is well explained now. After all she deserved to die on those conditions. Being a psychiatric hospital, they can't be blamed.

As far as investigation... I would suggest you did it yourself. The more detailed video cuts show at one time a doctor also coming in, looking at her in the floor and going away.

But where you really shine is here:


Was she even checked in or was she dumped there by her so called concerned family members, who I am sure will cry crocodile tears at her funeral while they count how much they can get from a lawsuit.

In here you say it all. Do you remember your first post on this thread? You said "He rarely posts his source, almost never checks it, and generally exagerates it." [sic] So... who's speaking of what they don't know? You, of course. How about I ask you to not exaggerate and to not bring into the discussion things you can't prove or support?

Attention seeking indeed.

Shaun32887
07-03-2008, 02:52 PM
Yeah, some hospitals can be pretty bad.

I work at Methodist down here in Houston, and I'm very happy to say that none of that happens here. It's to the point that even if someone is dying and family can't be there, employees volunteer time to spend with the person, no one died alone.

SlyMaelstrom
07-06-2008, 09:01 PM
There are a lot of people here talking about this that I would like to provide a little insight to. I am sure many of the readers are knowledgeable enough to recognize that this is not a representation of all heath care facilities in the United States. However, I'm sure some, specifically the European members with how their local media is portraying this would get the assumption that this kind of thing happens a lot here and that this is an every day kind of situation somewhere in the country.

So, speaking as a person that grew up in Brooklyn, I should probably explain a little bit about Kings County Hospital, which was located about 20-30 minutes from my home. Virtually everyone in the entire city of New York would consider Kings County Hospital to be one of the worst, if not the worst, hospital in New York and as far as we knew, the country. Kids used to make jokes about the idea of dying in the waiting room if they ever had to go there, though I never though I'd live to see the day it actually happened. It is located in an extremely bad area (Flatbush) and tends to the extremely desperate people. Even many people from the area that had virtually no money would attempt to avoid that hospital if possible. Anyway, I'm not making any excuses for what happened, I'm just trying to explain that this video was no nearly as shocking to me having known this hospital from my childhood.

CornedBee
07-07-2008, 02:28 AM
However, I'm sure some, specifically the European members with how their local media is portraying this would get the assumption that this kind of thing happens a lot here and that this is an every day kind of situation somewhere in the country.
Not really. We have our own health care scandals over here, especially in psychiatric institutions.

VirtualAce
07-07-2008, 04:47 PM
Somehow the American mass news media has forgotten about a little concept called context. I don't trust any of them anymore for news. All they are concerned about is ratings which is a consequence of being on TV - negative news sells and personalities sell. That's why news media now is more like watching a show with entertainers than it is about what is actually happening in the world.

It's terrible misinformation but fortunately about 67% of the American population does not trust the media. Many, many people are tired of the constant barrage of negativity. After watching the news you don't want to drive, walk, eat, or even wake up and leave your house. It is utterly ridiculous.


One year they focused on shark attacks (2003?) yet the overall statistics were that shark attacks were down 2 from the previous years and still below the average.
Another year (2005?) they chose to focus on the murder rate and how it was spiraling out of control. The actual facts behind it were that the overall murder rate was going down and was far below the averages of previous years. But that type of factual information doesn't sell.
During the OK city bombing they stated that other bombs were inside the building and had not gone off yet. This was so far from the truth as to be absurd. They broadcast what every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the street said without ever consulting someone who actually was in a position to know. Their sources were extremely questionable.
I also like their panel of experts. During the shuttle Challenger incident they asked their 'expert' what happened. He said they obviously suffered some type of explosion. Really? Thanks for clearing up the matter of the huge giant red fireball with pieces shooting everywhere for me.
During the Columbia disaster the 'expert' said the shuttle has suffered catastrophic failure. Thanks, Sherlock. Is that why there are pieces raining down from the sky from Arizona to Texas?
CNN had an interview with someone who knew the 'unibomber' personally. Yet when asked how this person knew the 'unibomber' he said...."Oh I don't know him, but I've seen him walking down my street several times."
Great interview from a great source. Did the reporter even check this person out or did they just throw them on camera b/c they had a good story at an opportune time for ratings?


On the same note the Weather Channel has jumped on the same bandwagon and focuses more on events that are not only very rare but nearly impossible just to hype the ratings. The other day I'm trying to see the local forecast because a thunderstorm was threating my area. Nope....It could happen tomorrow was on. We could have had a tornado and they would still be broadcasting their junk while a tornado devasted my area.
It's a shame too b/c the WC used to be outstanding. Maybe if they fired Heidi Cullen they could get back to actually talking about the weather.

In short: Mass media == bad_information


I will say the local news media for the most part broadcasts good factual news stories and is right on top of the weather before, during, and after it happens. We all used to call the local media the flunkies or thought they were somehow less informed and less professional than CNN, FOX, and MSNBC. Now I think the opposite is true. The local media has more factual information in 5 minutes of broadcast than the other three do in an hour.

Mario F.
07-07-2008, 05:04 PM
It's more or less the same over here, with many complaints about journalism giving less importance to the good things happening around us, and overdosing on bad news... sometimes with misinformation.

Concerning TV stations, some are thankfully a little better than others. For instance, on the news that initiated this thread, and on the TV station I saw it, the next piece was about recent similar incidents over here in Portugal followed by a invited doctor who commented on why these things might happen.

Newspaper are, at least here, thankfully a much better media. The payed ones are, mind you. With just only a few exceptions. Nothing replaces my morning newspaper when it comes to catch up with the news.

VirtualAce
07-07-2008, 05:12 PM
Hehe. I guess in the end it doesn't matter since in the next 20 years we will all be dead from one or more of the following.


Nuclear war
Terrorist attacks
Global warming
Food shortages
Complete world economic collapse


That is.....if you believe this load of hooey they are serving up.

Mario F.
07-07-2008, 05:33 PM
That is.....if you believe this load of hooey they are serving up.

Well... that's where I show one of my weaknesses. It's not that I buy all the junk they throw me. After all, all I need is to take a good look around my neighborhood to know all is not bad around the world. And I also do make an effort to avoid the traps of selective memory.

But... I do tend towards the side which does place very little faith in mankind in general, and politics in particular, in their ability to construct a better world. As far as I'm concerned we keep going down and accelerating.

I do believe we need a new Bastille (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Bastille) in order to reverse the direction we are taking, shorten the Gaps, deflate some of the big fortunes, cut a few heads (an unfortunate necessity), demand a better and more respected Declaration and basically return to the ideals of a free and just society in which Economics, while still playing a major role, are not the center stage player of every political decision...

VirtualAce
07-07-2008, 05:35 PM
In most circumstances cooler heads prevail. It does no good running around saying oh crap we are all gonna die. Those people are just one part of the problem.

medievalelks
07-07-2008, 06:12 PM
I do believe we need a new Bastille (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Bastille) in order to reverse the direction we are taking, shorten the Gaps, deflate some of the big fortunes, cut a few heads (an unfortunate necessity), demand a better and more respected Declaration and basically return to the ideals of a free and just society in which Economics, while still playing a major role, are not the center stage player of every political decision...

The ideals of a free and just society include cutting off heads and redistribution of wealth?

Mario F.
07-07-2008, 07:15 PM
The ideals of a free and just society include cutting off heads and redistribution of wealth?

Yes and no...

On cutting heads off - It's a consequence of every major revolution the shed of blood. I think I made that apparent on my post. On the other hand, the cutting of heads in Paris (and many were cut as you well know, I'm sure) lead to the Declaration of Human Rights. So in the end the real answer is most probably, yes. You need to shed blood to regain order. It has been like so for countless years, not to mention it's how you gained your independence and how you fought for your liberties.

On redistribution of wealth - A definite Yes. Call me socialist but I despise the salaries of some activities (like those of actors, soccer an basketball players, singers, certain administrators and even models). In my view, we have to regain the focus. Why should a teacher battle to sustain his family when a guy running after a ball earns in one year what they will never make in their 40 year career? I don't think switching the sides entirely is the answer... but I do think we have already passed the threshold of what is just and fair.

zacs7
07-07-2008, 07:22 PM
> Why should a teacher battle to sustain his family when a guy running after a ball earns in one year what they will never make in their 40 year career?
Sounds like communism to me... And what if you worked your ass off to build a multi-billion dollar mining company? And the gov' want to take it away, because the teacher down the street is poor.

Pfft, rights should be equal but certainly not material possessions or money.

medievalelks
07-07-2008, 07:56 PM
On redistribution of wealth - A definite Yes. Call me socialist but I despise the salaries of some activities (like those of actors, soccer an basketball players, singers, certain administrators and even models). In my view, we have to regain the focus. Why should a teacher battle to sustain his family when a guy running after a ball earns in one year what they will never make in their 40 year career? I don't think switching the sides entirely is the answer... but I do think we have already passed the threshold of what is just and fair.

The market determines what someone's services are worth, and nobody is forced to choose a particular profession. Fairness is relative. If people want to pay Britney Spears to shake her thing, who is to stop them? And those ball players and entertainers pay more in taxes that most people earn in a lifetime, too, so I'm not sure you want to cut them off at the knees.

It's a shame that people would rather tear down the rich than try to become one of them.

Mario F.
07-07-2008, 08:19 PM
Yes, well. We differ.

VirtualAce
07-08-2008, 01:10 AM
Socialism looks good on paper but never fleshes itself out to be anything of worth. I'm by no means a socialist and believe it is a failed form of government. While democracy in America is not perfect and even though capitalism in the current century means 90% of the wealth stays in the hands of 10% of the population, the system works. Socialism tries to put everyone on equal ground and it just doesn't work.

Mario F.
07-08-2008, 02:05 AM
Absolutely, the power of private initiative, and the personal gains from it derived, is one of the few things I would be willing to actively defend if one day they were to be threatened in my country. But capitalism is becoming too wild and giving rise to too many injustices that not only go unchecked, but are also accepted as perfectly normal these days. Which is only more scarier.

We need to evolve from ancient times once and for all, for pete's sake. We are living under the feudalism for far too long. In the brink of the 21st century, we are still mirroring the same ancient social gaps and widening them further.

Not democracy, neither capitalism, are really giving an answer to the same old problems. Socialism wasn't even close, having become the dark ages of modern times in many countries that tried it. (And modern capitalistic versions of socialism, like the one in China are complete aberrations that turn the individual as only a slight improved version of nuts and bolts).

I do feel we are rapidly approaching the threshold of... whatever it may be... when patience simply ends. When the differences are so big, the injustices so unacceptable, the difficulties so unsurmountable, that small cries of protest that we always hear will now start to shape crowds.

I cannot say I've had a difficult life so far. I have very little to complain when it comes to my own achievements or the opportunities I was either given or fought for. But I I have an hard time dealing with certain types of injustice, even when it has nothing to do with me or those I love. The woman that cleans my bookstore at the end of the day, goes to work at 5 am and only goes back home at 7 pm. Her day is passed doing cleaning on several places so that she can make enough money to survive. Feed herself, her 3 kids pay rent, taxes and bills. She's black, which only makes her life harder. In the end, she just doesn't ever make enough. At the age of 39 her life is FUBAR and she was never given a chance, neither she ever had a moment she could say "those were the days". In a country that currently rates as the 3rd poorest of the EU, her kids have little future either, since they are thrown into social and economical ghettos that refuse them proper education or a lifestyle capable of providing some hope.

And yet the 3rd poorest country in the EU, collects some of the highest taxes, builds fortunes on soccer, bank administration, stock market or... crime, slowly destroys the agriculture, industry and fishing, maintains a judicial system only truly accessible to the wealthy, supports an education and health system that is becoming increasingly socially stratified, wastes millions on doubtful long term investments that only serve that usually become simply money sinks that never had a real return...

As our democracies became bipartite and government terms became shorter and parties themselves became very efficient machines at doing complete facelifts, our leaders (and by our I mean, not only mine, but Our leaders) live days of bonanza in that all the crap they do today, all they ruin and the lifes they make miserable with their laws and irresponsible actions and money spending, have no real effect in their capacity to maintain power every 2 mandates at most. Your leader today, will be gone tomorow and his party will wash the hands of all the his ........ty decisions and actions.

Democracy and majority are no longer sharing hands. What majority? The majority battles hard everyday. The majority is not the middle class. That's the 80s. The majority is the poor, many of who don't even vote. Governments instead rule for a very specific minority; their rule for their own party interests, they rule for the economical interests and they sometimes throw us a bone.

medievalelks
07-08-2008, 06:05 AM
The woman that cleans my bookstore at the end of the day, goes to work at 5 am and only goes back home at 7 pm. Her day is passed doing cleaning on several places so that she can make enough money to survive. Feed herself, her 3 kids pay rent, taxes and bills. She's black, which only makes her life harder. In the end, she just doesn't ever make enough. At the age of 39 her life is FUBAR and she was never given a chance, neither she ever had a moment she could say "those were the days".

You paint a bleak anecdote, but without context on how she arrived in her current situation, it's somewhat pointless. Never given a chance? Did she have a chance not to have children she couldn't afford? A chance to do better in school? So that perhaps she could get a scholarship at a university and have a better life? Is there not financial aid that she could take advantage of now to learn a skill or trade?

The person most responsible for your current position in life is usually standing in the mirror. It's easy to blame the rich, the government, etc., but they won't get your out of your current situation faster than you can, nor could they have better prevented you from making poor life decisions.

medievalelks
07-08-2008, 06:26 AM
I do feel we are rapidly approaching the threshold of... whatever it may be... when patience simply ends. When the differences are so big, the injustices so unacceptable, the difficulties so unsurmountable, that small cries of protest that we always hear will now start to shape crowds.


Yes, what terrible injustices people suffer in America.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200310/ai_n9315538

But what is more remarkable is the story behind the Census figures: The actual living conditions of the individuals the government deems to be poor. For most Americans the word "poverty" suggests destitution: an inability to provide a family with nutritious food, clothing and reasonable shelter. But only a small number of the 35 million persons classified as "poor" by the Census Bureau fit that description.

While real material hardship certainly does occur, it is limited in scope and severity. The bulk of the "poor" live in material conditions that would have been judged as comfortable or well-off just a few generations ago. Today, the expenditures per person of the lowest income one-fifth (or quintile) of households equal those of the median American household in the early 1970s, after adjusting for inflation.

Microwaves and Stereos

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

* Forty-six per cent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one and a half baths, a garage and porch or patio.

* Seventy-six per cent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago only 36% of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

* Only 6% of poor households are overcrowded. More than two thirds have more than two rooms per person.

* The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens and other cities throughout Europe. (Note: These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries not to those classified as poor.)

* Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30% own two or more cars.

* Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television. Over half own two or more color televisions. Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player. Sixty-two percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

* Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens; more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.


*** IS THE GOVERNMENT OR THE RICH TO BLAME FOR THIS? ***

Not having a dad around is another reliable pathway down into poverty. Nearly two-thirds of poor children reside in single-parent homes. Each year an additional 1.3 million children are born out-of-wedlock. If poor mothers married the fathers of their children, almost three quarters would immediately be lifted out of poverty.

Mario F.
07-08-2008, 07:10 AM
I'm stunned. You really live in la-la land. You don't go out much, do you? I'm not even going to argue on those points. It's absolutely ridiculous.

It's unnecessary anyways, because while I speak of the world in general, you seem focused on USA, as if what's beyond your borders just doesn't matter.


You paint a bleak anecdote, but without context on how she arrived in her current situation, it's somewhat pointless.

Take it at face value and don't bother me, or don't believe a word of what I say and don't bother me either. I'm not in the mood, and never will be, to speak of other people's lives beyond what is absolutely necessary in order to further a point. It's the way it is and I realy don't give a rat's arse if you care to believe in it or not.

I already noticed you just don't buy the poverty talk. For you people are poor because they never did anything to get out of the situation. The poor are lazy. I don't know if I should ignore you or slap out of your induced coma. But while I think about it, I'll decide for the former.

Have a nice day.

DavidP
07-08-2008, 08:08 AM
You paint a bleak anecdote, but without context on how she arrived in her current situation, it's somewhat pointless. Never given a chance? Did she have a chance not to have children she couldn't afford? A chance to do better in school? So that perhaps she could get a scholarship at a university and have a better life? Is there not financial aid that she could take advantage of now to learn a skill or trade?


I would have to agree with Mario F. in the regard that you seem very focused on only the USA and are not recognizing the rest of the world. Take this example of the black woman who Mario F. mentioned his post, and then you responded with the above quote.

You are obviously thinking of the average African-American who does have a chance to go to good schools and make a better life for himself/herself. When I hear Mario F. say "black woman" the first thing that comes to mind for me is not the average African-American which we see here in the USA, but an immigrant directly from Africa who is a refugee and is struggling to survive which I saw every day while I was living in Italy. (Mario F. can confirm whether that is correct in his country as well...I assume African refugees are fairly widespread throughout Europe).

I know several Africans from my time in Italy who have amazing (if that is even the correct word) tales of their escapes from their war-torn countries and journeys to Europe. One man I know literally walked from the Congo to Tunisia in order to get away from the war that was going on in his country, and then when he arrived in Malta (a country that is part of the EU) he was thrown in a refugee prison for a year until it could be confirmed that he was a refugee. When he finally got out, he was able to find work...but did the Maltese like the African refugees? No. So did the African refugees get good work? Absolutely not. A few Maltese lira per day at most.

Although this black woman that Mario F. speaks of might come from a different background or situation, most Africans that I met while living in Italy came from a very similar situation to the one I described above. Very little chance to "do better in school", "get a scholarship", or even "get financial aid".

abachler
07-08-2008, 08:23 AM
Besides it was my last understanding that late term abortions were illegal.

3rd trimester abortions are generally illegal, since the child at this point can usually survive outside thw womb. They can be authorized in extreme cases (e.g. the fetus is brain dead). What anti-abortion fanatics often refer to as 'late term' is 2nd trimester, where the child cannot usually survive outside the womb without extraordinary measures. These are generally restricted to health of the mother cases. First trimester abortions are at will.

medievalelks
07-08-2008, 08:49 AM
I'm stunned. You really live in la-la land. You don't go out much, do you? I'm not even going to argue on those points. It's absolutely ridiculous.

I cited bureau of census statistics, you cite gut feelings and anecdotes. Which of us is in la-la land?



It's unnecessary anyways, because while I speak of the world in general, you seem focused on USA, as if what's beyond your borders just doesn't matter.

As far as I'm concerned about the reach of my government, no - I don't care in that regard. I mean, whose bastille were you planning to storm?

I do contribute to private charities that try to help countries ruined by despots and corrupt governments, but I feel that they probably don't do much to help.



I already noticed you just don't buy the poverty talk. For you people are poor because they never did anything to get out of the situation. The poor are lazy. I don't know if I should ignore you or slap out of your induced coma. But while I think about it, I'll decide for the former.

Have a nice day.

I clarified the poverty talk - at least in the US - with an article citing statistics from the 2002 US Census. You refute it with hand waving, emotional outbursts, and threats of violence.

Have a nice day yourself, but think twice before you decide to "storm our bastille", Madame De Farge.

Mario F.
07-08-2008, 09:38 AM
Although this black woman that Mario F. speaks of might come from a different background or situation, most Africans that I met while living in Italy came from a very similar situation to the one I described above. Very little chance to "do better in school", "get a scholarship", or even "get financial aid".

She's not a refugee, though. But a regular immigrant from Angola that faced lack of work, no social security, no proper health care and hunger in her own country. Europe is a land of opportunity to them because even though they live at the bottom of the social ladder on most cases, they live better here than they did in their own countries. They are however victims of all sorts of prejudice and most arrive at later ages, after a youth spent working instead of going to school in order to survive. They have no formal education and there's very few mechanisms that at least try to ensure the second generation (their sons and daughters) are offered better opportunities. They even suffer from far worst discrimination that starts in school and carries on through their entire lives, turning most of them into rightfully bitter youths who create their own culture usually as much distanced from the host country normal practices as possible. Which only complicates matters.

She's just one of 1 million other similar cases in a country of 10 million. And yet although she earns around 400 euros a month (just around 50 euros above the minimum wage), she's considered above the poverty level... 400 euros a month, 3 young children and a mother. And that, they say, is not poor.

And she is a speck in a world where maybe 1/2 of the world population lives under 2 dollars a day. While some read census that make a poor effort dispelling poverty, the vast majority of the world population (including many citizens on developed countries. And in USA too) are looking for a way out of their poverty, or have submitted to it as they realize that's how their lives will always be. And that's how the Declaration of Human Rights turned out to be.

The fact we now look at this as perfectly normal, acceptable, understandable, and some even go to lengths to try and dispel "the myth of poverty", is the real drama of these people.

shawnt
07-08-2008, 09:48 AM
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200310/ai_n9315538



Only in America! :D

abachler
07-08-2008, 10:49 AM
And yet although she earns around 400 euros a month (just around 50 euros above the minimum wage), she's considered above the poverty level... 400 euros a month, 3 young children and a mother. And that, they say, is not poor.


400 EU, thats about $626 US, thats a damned good living for unskilled labor, especially when you consider the purchasing power parity. Enough to live in luxury with 3 kids, no, but then she chose sex over success. Her choiice, not mine, how is her decision my responsibility? If I am responsible for the decision's of my fellow man, then they are also responsible for my decision, so I want to know where my Farrari, Trophy Wife, and McMansion are.

psychopath
07-08-2008, 01:17 PM
but then she chose sex over success
You know, he's talking about a (presumably fairly uneducated) immigrant, right?

abachler
07-08-2008, 02:59 PM
You know, he's talking about a (presumably fairly uneducated) immigrant, right?

Uneducated doesnt mean stupid. Even people in 3rd world countries are aware that children need food, clothing and shelter; and that those needs must be provided by the parent(s). Unless you are claiming that she comes form some mysically naive part fo the world where they are unaware of the fact that sex causes pregnancy, she was 'aware' of the consequences of her actions, even if she coudlnt fully grasp the magnitude of those consequences. She is still far better off now than she would be in whatever ........hole she left, otherwise why leave. Honestly, stop feeling sorry for these people. Bleeding heart liberals like you and Mario F. woudl have us live in communism because you refuse to make people take responsibility for their bad choices.

Mario F.
07-08-2008, 04:19 PM
Yes. I should tell these people just that. They are responsible for having had a child at the age of 15 due to the fact her country offers absolutely no education on families living in rural areas. Or that they are responsible if their brothers, father or uncle repeatedly rape them. Or if they are kidnapped by rebel forces and used as sexual slaves in some Ivory Coast rebel camp.

But mostly I should blame these people for having kids and seeing their partners abandon them to their luck. And I should blame them for the fact their parents didn't want them to go to school, but instead work in the fields or marry them at the age of 13 for the dowry.

Ignorant cretins like you would have us lived back in the days of slavery from which you wished you had never left. Get under that rock and smell the world outside that street you live on. You are too lazy and too much of a fool to have a discussion with me on these issues before you do just that, newb.

mike_g
07-08-2008, 04:57 PM
Well the moral of the story is everyone should get sterilised. Especially poor people; generally speaking they pump out too many babies and often dont have the means to look after them properly. I'm sure they could be lured into it with the promise of free stuff like a tv, car, or half oz of crack. I know this probably sounds fascist but all the scare stories in the media are nothing compared to the problems we are going to have soon with over population theres simply not going to be enough resources on this planet to go around.

A problem with a lot of 3rd world countries is that having a large family is seen as a status symbol. Also, when you live in a country with no such thing as a pension, when you get old you end up relying on your family to look after you. So having kids is also sort of like an investment.

zacs7
07-08-2008, 05:29 PM
They are responsible for having had a child at the age of 15 due to the fact her country offers absolutely no education on families living in rural areas.


... And who's fault do you think that is? What it no becomes your country's fault that her country didn't have an education system? Where do you think the system you have now came from? Nothing at all is stopping Africa.

I already have a good education, so you're saying it's my right to move country and get stuff for free? I'd say Education isn't something that should be free, not when I pay $12K a year.

In Australia they give them free money, immigrants get less than students (who get $0, and I'd argue are struggling far more -- in fact the poorest suburb in Australia is my uni's postcode [all the boarders]). All they do is cruise around on the bus system, spending money... not working at all. They even get free bloody houses! It goes to show giving them stuff for free, is not the way.

medievalelks
07-08-2008, 06:10 PM
They are responsible for having had a child at the age of 15 due to the fact her country offers absolutely no education on families living in rural areas. Or that they are responsible if their brothers, father or uncle repeatedly rape them. Or if they are kidnapped by rebel forces and used as sexual slaves in some Ivory Coast rebel camp.


So who is responsible for that? Sad stories, but no justification for confiscating the income of others to help her. You want to help, start or give to a charity or church or other such private organization that does such work. There are plenty.

VirtualAce
07-08-2008, 06:16 PM
Dated and funny, but oh so true.

http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speech-whyspeculate.html

SlyMaelstrom
07-08-2008, 06:18 PM
So who is responsible for that? Sad stories, but no justification for confiscating the income of others to help her. You want to help, start or give to a charity or church or other such private organization that does such work. There are plenty.Agreed, if there is anything that I've learned in my life in America is that private charitable organizations handle their donations WAY better than the government handles our tax dollars. They make the dollar go much farther and they help all the right people much better. The government is a big, wasteful machine that will only make you wonder exactly all that money you've had taken away has been going.

Now, I can't say the same for other countries, but a government is a government. They are all big wasters and I'm sure no matter where you're from, you're better off giving it to charity than to the government. Fortunately, the US (and I'm sure most other countries) have a solution for this as they allow you to write off all income that has been donated to charities from your taxes. This is how it should be, now we just need to find a way to convince the upper-middle class and lower-upper class to donate more because the fact is, the big guys like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet do more donating than anyone can really ask of them.


Funny, but oh so true.

http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speech-whyspeculate.htmlCrichton is a genius. I'm glad someone else gets joy out of reading his articles and speeches. By the way, did you see that left-wing monstrosity that A&E made out of The Andromeda Strain?

medievalelks
07-08-2008, 06:53 PM
Agreed, if there is anything that I've learned in my life in America is that private charitable organizations handle their donations WAY better than the government handles our tax dollars. They make the dollar go much farther and they help all the right people much better. The government is a big, wasteful machine that will only make you wonder exactly all that money you've had taken away has been going.

Not to mention that big government depends on the existence of a victim class. Government programs have created generations of dependents, and that's just fine with some. It keeps them in power.



convince the upper-middle class and lower-upper class to donate more because the fact is, the big guys like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet do more donating than anyone can really ask of them.

Exxon Mobil pays more in taxes than 50% (http://seekingalpha.com/article/63131-exxon-s-2007-tax-bill-30-billion) of the people in the US. One corporation paid more than 65 million taxpayers, and yet they're being ostracized and threatened with more taxes. We don't need a revolution, we need to see Atlas Shrugged come to fruition.

VirtualAce
07-08-2008, 06:57 PM
...Bill Gates and Warren Buffet do more donating than anyone can really ask of them.

I must say I was very impressed with Bill Gates and his charitable efforts. The fact that he would donate a huge sum of his earnings when he by all rights did not have to is quite noble. Sure he left enough for his family to survive on but he does deserve it. I'm not an MS fan but Bill took a fledgling company from near bankruptcy to a multi-billion dollar corporation. He was not alone but many other companies have tried the same and failed. Now the fact that he is leaving MS to concentrate on charitable efforts is amazing. He obviously is not doing it for popularity since he has all he would ever need in that dept. I think the guy down deep is still the geeky nerd who just happen to make it big and now wants to give back a good portion of what he has.



Crichton is a genius. I'm glad someone else gets joy out of reading his articles and speeches. By the way, did you see that left-wing monstrosity that A&E made out of The Andromeda Strain?

Yes. Very unfortunate.


These alarmists are in it for one thing. It's not for saving the planet, helping the populous, feeding the hungry, etc., etc. If you want to know the whole source of this entire disaster scenario line of hogwash just follow the money. Noone acts like this or continue to offer up purely unscientific bologna unless there is some serious money to be made.

Making money in the modern world

Fabricate a crisis
Fabricate a solution
Scare everyone with the fabricated crisis to create demand for the fabricated solution.
Laugh all the way to the bank


It is the law of supply and demand causing prices to rise. They limit the supply thereby making it appear demand has increased and make billions. It's in food, oil, housing....oh wait that one finally burst.

Again....everyone can believe we are all gonna die if we don't do this or that. Heck I shoulda been dead 50 times by now with all I've eaten and the chemicals I've been around in construction and the factory. If it's hype it will die and if it's not....then they win and we all die. Either way we don't have the technology to predict much less stop 80% of the ridiculous stories they are fabricating day in and day out.

In the end it's all about money, control, and who controls the money. It's been that way for the past hundred years and this new round of b/s is no different.

Also the liberals try to tax the heck out the very people that provide us with what we need. Ya know....I never received money from a poor man. Leave the companies alone, give them permission to do what they do best be it oil or food, and let's stop trying to come up with absolutely absurd ways to circumvent a system that works. All systems come and go and we will eventually use alternate more efficient, more powerful forms of energy. Obviously right now based on results of the EU and the USA we just don't have the technology to do it now. Stop taxing the people who can invent new solutions - now that's a 'green' policy I would actually back.

Fusion is one source of energy we could really benefit from yet nearly every country, including the USA, has reduced funding the new reactor to be built. How are we ever going to find something new if we insist on squashing progress? I would love to get off of oil and stop paying these ridiculous over-inflated unjustified prices. But until we get serious about either using the resources we have here (oil shale anyone?) or finding alternate more powerful ones we will never see them. I bet the oil companies are laughing their arse off. We know we have oil shale here that would satisfy our current oil import volume for the next 100 years yet some greenie group doesn't want to do it b/c of ancient Indian carvings. Seriously. Put them in a museum for all to see and let's get on with business. So you don't like the prices but you don't like any of the obvious solutions? I bet oil execs are like fine then....pay the price.

So I say either mine what we have and use the current system or fund research for investing in a new system. Stop worrying about Yogi Bear and mine the stinking resources we have at our disposal. What we are doing is like playing Civ 4 and not using any of our local resources to further our cities. Is this really rocket science folks?

Have you ever had a friend that could not get a job? Yet every job you suggest to him he has some excuse as to why it wouldn't work for him? Our energy policy is that guy.