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Mario F.
06-12-2008, 09:14 AM
This is going to sound strange, but the reason I speak of this is because I worry about generation clashes. In short, I want to learn how to speak with my daughter...

Do you remember you parents telling you music these days is no good and in their time things were better? I had mine saying this back in the days when I was listening to bands like Fischer-Z, The Cult, Queen, Led Zeppelin (even though this one is from their time), Meat Loaf, Pink Floyd (Roger Water's pink floyd. Just not the same without him), and a million other et ceteras. It was part of my education this intimate knowledge that my parents could never understand me and my times.

So what happens now? I listen to today's music and I vomit. What happened to the 60's to 90's proliferation of colossal bands? What is this that we hear today? Smashing hits that don't last in your hear more than 12 months when bands like Rolling Stones or Nirvana produced songs that gained their place in history.

Even the rap and hip-hop crap we hear today. Do you remember when rap became popular back in the early 90s? Do you remember the quality of lyrics and rap structure of Wu-Tang or Snoop Dog. Do you remember the rap wars? What is this I hear today? What is this crap? And hip-hop... don't get me started on the worst musical style since elevator music was invented.

What's worst? Do you remember a time when mainstream popular bands and singers composed their own songs and lyrics? When they mastered writing and composing along with performing? When you knew that what you were listening to was what was in their hearts. What is this crap I see today? Semi-naked wonderful bodies, pretty faces and ass shaking to go along with songs you cannot remember next year written and produced by someone else who just wants to use their pretty faces.

I vomit and I suffer from chronic yearning. I wish I was back in my youth getting extremely high on Led Zeppelin - Been Loving You, closing my eyes and drinking every sound of U2 - One, bowing my head in respect to names like Vangelis, Cult, Cure, Doors, Procol Harum, Thin Lizzy, Ozzy Osborn, Jimmy Hendrix, and learning for the first time how to love a woman to the sound of Gary Moore - Parisienne Walkways.

So... what's wrong with me? Is it a generation clash or is indeed the music that changed to worst?

indigo0086
06-12-2008, 09:16 AM
Your refusal to reference jazz in a music thread makes me vomit ;p.

Mario F.
06-12-2008, 09:22 AM
Oh my god! I am so sorry. Absolutely right. I am myself a lover. But let's face it, Jazz has fortunately been out of the loop. Because of that it has been spared and remains a consistent, yet evolving style that is not tainted by the commercial label tarts and the mtv ignorant.

PING
06-12-2008, 09:36 AM
Agreed, the music these days is awful ! But what's stopping you from introducing your daughter to the music you listened to ? Maybe she hasn't heard the songs. Personally I hate Rap and Hip-Hop. I mostly listen to Rock and Metal. There are a lot of good bands coming up these days, especially in the Metal scenario.

cboard_member
06-12-2008, 09:42 AM
I listen to pretty much everything, minus the repetitive brain injury crap that is typical club music, "house", "garage" and all that BS. I hate even walking past clubs on a night out and I hate it even more when some slack-jawed jock drives past our house with his windows down and this type of music blaring.

Anyway. Yeah. I agree. There are a few bands around in the charts that I like but most of today's music is utter crapola.

Oh and I love Muse, in case my avatar and title didn't give that away.

indigo0086
06-12-2008, 09:43 AM
I do like some modern music, but because of my nature as a more casual music listener (in that I don't like particular types of music just because they belong ot a particular genre) I am able to filter and only listen to music that I like. I'm more of a song listener than a type listener. I love jazz though, ever since I discovered the local public jazz radio station (wdna.org has an online cast if you like) I've been saved when it comes to radio music.

I think your predicament is that you like what you like, that's how it is. A while ago you couldn't get me to listen to modern metal if you tried, but listening to various bands which I now like I'm able to listen to it like I listen to jazz which involves focusing on the different instruments and what makes this type of music the type of music that it is.

One thing that gets me though are a lot of so called indy bands I've heard. What gets me is not the actual sound but the lack of talent to play a musical instrument. There is a college radio-station which plays what I call "non-music" because in my opinion if you're going to have a band with several guitars, drums, a keyboard, and whatever instrument either 1) Learn how to play one or more of them, 2) make it sound interesting. A lot of it seems like these guys were playing around while recording then these lamoids tout it as "high art".

Another thing I don't like about some groups is that when they have uninteresting instrumentals, the vocalist tries to exaggerate these unusual vocals to make the song sound interesting, I think it fails.

I won't make as big a blanket statement as you have with music in general, because I've heard a lot of great music old and new, but there are big stinkers. Maybe you're just old.

Also if you plan on introducing your daughter to some "cool music" be prepared for her to hate it.

Mario F.
06-12-2008, 09:56 AM
Agreed, the music these days is awful ! But what's stopping you from introducing your daughter to the music you listened to?

When she was in her mummy's belly, I used to put my stereo headphones on her and had her listening to some of my favorite songs. Naturally I didn't use the same volume settings I use to hear them myself.

She was born and she's growing fast and she always listened to what I listen. She definitely enjoys music as much as I do. But I cannot avoid her being quaffed into these ages, nor am sure I want to. What I strive instead is to reach an understanding with her in that neither she's shallow for liking this crap, neither am I square for hating it. (which I must say is hard to do)

indigo0086
06-12-2008, 10:03 AM
As a child ages their parent's naturally take on properties of a square.

But art is subjective, so all our complaints are personal and decent enough people will like what we consider crap.

Mario F.
06-12-2008, 10:25 AM
But art is subjective, so all our complaints are personal and decent enough people will like what we consider crap.


I don't agree art is that subjective. But this is a touchy subject. For me that is more a commonplace that justifies a white painting with two black lines and a red square selling for a couple of million, or for a label sponsored and backed up band to sell crap hip hop when some of them don't even know how to sing outside a studio.

But I can agree people may like what others dislike and even call it crap without that signifying any particular judgment except for those involved in said "art"... which is well deserved I must add. If I'm willing to produce a piece of what I myself call art, I may as well get ready for it to be called a piece of crap and I to smell like it.

The issue however is... is music today mostly crap? Yes, in my opinion. Certainly there are exceptions but lets leave those aside, ok? I'm talking of music in general. The stuff you hear everyday and that gets the most bang out of tv stations, radios and live concerts.

indigo0086
06-12-2008, 10:49 AM
And yet people do genuinely like it, daughters included.

Mario F.
06-12-2008, 10:56 AM
Yes. And that's precisely the issue, isn't it? Gosh. I'm speaking to a wall. forget it.

indigo0086
06-12-2008, 11:02 AM
It's not an issue to me, but I certainly don't "feel sorry" for them in any sense of the phrase.

My last name is Wall btw.

medievalelks
06-12-2008, 11:48 AM
I grew up on classic rock but don't like it as well now (42 years old). I find myself switching between Jazz, Blues, and Big Band/Sinatra on Sirius -- you know the stuff my parents listened to. :-) I like some classical but couldn't match a piece with a composer.

I honestly couldn't name a popular artist today, but I hear some songs I like.

Mario F.
06-12-2008, 12:16 PM
Ok, but this isn't a pool type of thread :)

What I would like to know is what you think of the current situation in the music industry or if it is as healthy as it always was and I can't just seem to grasp (much like my parents did) the new age.

I cannot hope to have you answer the second question. But I'm trying to gain some insight as to better understand this generation tastes and with it better follow my daughter own experiences, by exploring this and other themes.

PING
06-12-2008, 12:20 PM
It's not an issue to me, but I certainly don't "feel sorry" for them in any sense of the phrase.


It would be if you ever cared to read up the lyrics to some of the rap songs. The kind of stuff my parents wouldn't have liked me hearing when i was younger.

Neo1
06-12-2008, 12:56 PM
And hip-hop... don't get me started on the worst musical style since elevator music was invented.

Hip-Hop has it's legends, just like any genre of music. If you judge it from the stuff you hear on the radio nowadays, you are missing out on a whole lot of really good music. You mentioned Wu-Tang yourself, try checking out some of the really big names in hip-hop, A Tribe Called Quest - De La Soul - Nas - D.I.T.C - DJ Premier and MC Guru - KRSOne - Rakim and Eric B. I'm sure you would change your mind about Hip Hop being the worst genre of music ever.

You said you liked Jazz? Hip-Hop is really not that far from jazz, check out MC Guru's soloproject Jazzmatazz or basically anything with A Tribe Called Quest, they constantly sample old jazz records, and use saxophones or trumpets for the beats.

Just don't ignore hip-hop solely based on the stuff you hear on the radio, like Soulja Boy, Lil' Wayne or G-Unit (Sigh, MOP used to be great, why did they sell out?!), wether or not you fancy the genre is irrelevant, i'm sure you can appreciate the musical quality and skill of the MCs and DJs of the early 90's, this is really not a subjective question, it's a fact imo.

indigo0086
06-12-2008, 01:45 PM
Jazz is not even close to Hip-Hop. I'm not dismissing it, but just sampling a song of another genre doesn't connect the two. By that account rock is not far from rap since some producers sample rock songs. It's just not happening.

Mario F.
06-12-2008, 01:53 PM
i'm sure you can appreciate the musical quality and skill of the MCs and DJs of the early 90's

I'll check some of those names you mentioned. I have no doubt, I've missed out. The 90s where mostly a period where my interests where centered on alternative, gothic rock and instrumental styles. Everything from Procol Harum to Nick Cave, Bauhaus and Tom Waits. I've also gained then an interest in rap, but missed out on hip-hop.

indigo0086
06-12-2008, 01:59 PM
doesn't that whole "rap is the artform, hip-hop is the culture" come into play anymore?

Mario F.
06-12-2008, 02:16 PM
Not anymore, as far as I can tell. Hip-hop is today completely off its turntable origins. I'm not even sure what is tagged today as hip-hop is indeed hip-hop. It is certainly a culture still though and one I don't want my daughter associated with in any way other than listening.

As for Rap... my opinion is it's dead. With only a very few exceptions, it's no longer what it used to be. Current rappers are unskilled, provide incipient lyrics (or messages if you may), and are constantly swayed towards a much more successful hip-hop money-wise. So much in fact, that you can't hear rap anymore, but instead emceeded hip-hop.

Neo1
06-12-2008, 03:58 PM
Jazz is not even close to Hip-Hop. I'm not dismissing it, but just sampling a song of another genre doesn't connect the two. By that account rock is not far from rap since some producers sample rock songs. It's just not happening.

Guru did Jazzmatazz in 4 volumes, check out any of those, they are basically jazz with lyrics. Same goes for for Pete Rock and CL Smooth, they had one major hit called When they reminisce over you, which also has alot of similarites with jazz. Hell, Nasir "Nas" Jones's father was a jazz musician, you can clearly hear that when listening to Illmatic or any of his early works. Or how about From 93 'till infinity, with Souls Of Mischief? Or anything that the Hieroglyphics laid their hands on.

The list goes on...

As for the whole "Hip-Hop Is Dead" thing, i agree, it's mostly a dead art. Although some alternative rappers and the underground are still releasing quality material, the mainstream segment has turned into a horrible mash-up between RnB and poor rapping. Common and Talib Kweli are both still kicking, same goes for Jedi Mind Tricks (They peaked with Violent By Design in 1999 though (iirc), but still worth listening to). And rumor has it that The Pharcyde is reuniting at this years Rock The Bells :)

indigo0086
06-12-2008, 04:37 PM
Jazz with lyrics is also called jazz. I'm just saying if you listen to jazz it's much more than a riff repeated over and over liek samples are. These "similarities" to jazz come about because they're sampling jazz music. I can appreciate the sound, but they are two totally different genres.

Neo1
06-12-2008, 04:44 PM
Jazz with lyrics is also called jazz. I'm just saying if you listen to jazz it's much more than a riff repeated over and over liek samples are. These "similarities" to jazz come about because they're sampling jazz music. I can appreciate the sound, but they are two totally different genres.

Hip Hop is "black man's music", just like jazz was. Hip Hop is directly related to funk, soul and disco. 3 genres that again, is not too far from jazz, i'm sure that we can agree?

I'm not saying it's the same thing, but considering how many of the classic MCs that uses jazz components in their music, i'd say they are definetly related.

Edit:

I'm not the only one with this opinion.

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/articles/jazz1202.htm


Jazz, largely developed from the blues, originated around the beginning of the 20th century. Improvised jazz singing, called vocalese, is often compared by musicians and music critics to the freestyling of rappers within hip hop. Freestyling has also been said to derive from the art of improvising songs that often distinguishes jazz. Jazz has influenced hip hop greatly throughout its entire history; the scat singing of jazz could be heard in the seminal 1979 old school hip hop song "Rapper's Delight" by the Sugarhill Gang. To this day, jazz musicians such as Herbie Hancock collaborate with rappers, creating a sound that blurs genre lines.

indigo0086
06-12-2008, 04:52 PM
I don't believe so. I think what makes two genres related are their inherent structure. Rap does not have the same structure as jazz. And Jazz as nebulous as the term is, has basic elements such as improvisation, solos, harmony ad chords that most rap wouldn't have if jazz wasn't sampled. I think you're using the term relate incorrectly.

Also rap is no longer a "black man's music" considering how many producers and rappers are non-black. The same with jazz, jazz encompasses a lot of sub-genres like straight-ahead jazz, bop, swing, Latin-Jazz etc.

The closest relation jazz has to rap I think is fusion. But that's just a genre that was just a composition of several genres.

Neo1
06-12-2008, 05:08 PM
I don't believe so. I think what makes two genres related are their inherent structure. Rap does not have the same structure as jazz. And Jazz as nebulous as the term is, has basic elements such as improvisation, solos, harmony ad chords that most rap wouldn't have if jazz wasn't sampled. I think you're using the term relate incorrectly.

Also rap is no longer a "black man's music" considering how many producers and rappers are non-black. The same with jazz, jazz encompasses a lot of sub-genres like straight-ahead jazz, bop, swing, Latin-Jazz etc.

The closest relation jazz has to rap I think is fusion. But that's just a genre that was just a composition of several genres.

Hmm, hip-hop DOES have improvisation, very much so.

But regarding the term relate, all i'm saying is that hip-hop has been greatly influenced by jazz, to the point where many of the tracks that are considered classics of the genre, uses sounds and instruments that are otherwise rarely seen outside of jazz, and even goes so far as to sample old jazz records, and collaborate with jazz musicians, such as Bob James and Herbie Hancock.

I used relate as the term to describe this connection, but now that you've mentioned it, i'm no longer sure that was a very good choice of words. Whatever, i hope you know what i mean now.


Also rap is no longer a "black man's music"

Well, i'd reckon that around 95% of professional rappers are black. I can only think of a few white rappers of the top of my head atleast, but then again i am by no means an expert on this subject, so i might be wrong..

lightatdawn
06-12-2008, 06:31 PM
The state of music today? That's something that is constantly on my mind these days as well. There's no doubt that there are some very talented people making some very awsome tunes, but it's fewer and farther between, in my opinion. If you're starving for new music, of recent and great interest to me have been Coldplays new album Viva la Vida (I know, coldplay? But it's worth checking out for sure), Weezers the Red Album, Wintersleep, and Death Cab for Cutie.

As for Hip Hop, I can't help you much there as the Genre has only the odd artist to interest me. I too share your pain on the mindless state of the lyrics. Take solace in the fact that sometimes we all enjoy a pointless little ditty and it's likely that your daughter takes nothing away from it other than a little head bobbing.

abachler
06-12-2008, 07:59 PM
Your refusal to reference jazz in a music thread makes me vomit ;p.

Never been much of a fan for jazz, I prefer Blues


Hmm, hip-hop DOES have improvisation, very much so.


I think he means in the musical sense, not the 'made ........ up as you go' sense. just because you can say something that rhymes that isnt necessarily improvisation (again, in the musical sense).

Jazz is related to rap in that both styles were meant to appeal to the masses without necessarily striving for artistic quality. Not to say that either style is entirely lacking in quality, just that that wasnt the main focus of their inception. But as for any deeper connection, I have to disagree, they are two completely different artistic styles. Saying they are related because they both come from 'black culture' is like saying heavy metal and gregorian chant are related because they both come from 'white culture'.

jEssYcAt
06-13-2008, 01:30 AM
What I would like to know is what you think of the current situation in the music industry or if it is as healthy as it always was and I can't just seem to grasp (much like my parents did) the new age.

I cannot hope to have you answer the second question. But I'm trying to gain some insight as to better understand this generation tastes and with it better follow my daughter own experiences, by exploring this and other themes.

I think there are a number of factors that have made me, my parents, and their parents react with "Today's music is garbage!"

Consider that it has gotten much easier for any Joe Schmoe to produce "music" and get it out to the public. And since we tend to remember the bad things more than the good things, we see more bad stuff out there, hence the music of today being "garbage". There are plenty of talented artists producing good music, you just have to wade through the bad stuff (or the stuff you just don't like) to find it.

Plus, kids don't have the same experience as adults do, and don't see things the same way. Did you ever watch a cartoon as a kid and then watch it again as an adult and wonder "How on earth did I like this??" Nostalgia also plays a role in music, and listening to certain songs is pleasant because it reminds you of things you were doing when you heard it (Alice in Chains "Rooster" reminds me of hanging out with friends and playing D&D, Collective Soul songs remind me of working at a convenience store, etc.).

And then there's simply differences in musical taste. I like a lot of the "repetitive brain injury crap that is typical club music", especially while I am at work doing data entry, or on the rare occasion that I support the legalization of marijuana. ;)

Neo1
06-13-2008, 01:52 AM
I think he means in the musical sense, not the 'made ........ up as you go' sense. just because you can say something that rhymes that isnt necessarily improvisation (again, in the musical sense).

What exactly is the difference? Coltrane improvises with his soprano saxophone, Big L does it with his mouth and a microphone?

How is freestyle rapping not improvisation in the "musical sense"?


But as for any deeper connection, I have to disagree, they are two completely different artistic styles.

Well, i have nothing more to add really. If you feel that the musical similarities between the two are just coincidences, then that's up to you.

P4R4N01D
06-13-2008, 02:35 AM
I listen to today's music and I vomit.Not all recent music is that bad. Some great music produced afew years ago: Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pendulum's old drum and base (esp granite). I like techno, now and a great beat I should never be able to get sick of. Disagreeable but I feel that lyrics ruin some songs: a good beat is sufficient to make some of the best songs, all the lyrics do is help to remember the beat, like I feel people ruin photos. Rock is good too. I do agree that there isn't much good music coming out. Oh well, thanks to keygenmusic I have plenty of music to keep me going for ages.

abachler
06-13-2008, 04:51 PM
What exactly is the difference? Coltrane improvises with his soprano saxophone, Big L does it with his mouth and a microphone?

How is freestyle rapping not improvisation in the "musical sense"?

Well, i have nothing more to add really. If you feel that the musical similarities between the two are just coincidences, then that's up to you.

In musical terminology, Improvisation is a particular artistic device where you embellish/expand a preexisting theme, usually into a more elaborate presentation, e.g. Jimi Hendrix's version of the national anthem. It's not babbling some crap that you may or may not have just made up.

The real problem here is that most of the people that talk about music arent qualified to have an opinion about music. Its like a couple of yuppies arguing about cars without knowing diddly squat about gear ratios, compression, torque, or swirl and roll. It just makes you look like a bunch of ........ing idiots babbling on about your own opinions.

mike_g
06-13-2008, 05:16 PM
why would anyone have to be qualified to have an opinion about music? Its completely a matter of taste. I don't listen to much hiphop anymore, its really been going down hill for a long time now. Now I mostly listen to breakbeat, D&B and psy trance, but thats just what I like.

Oh, and thats a funny sig you got ;)

abachler
06-13-2008, 06:29 PM
Oh, and thats a funny sig you got ;)

hehe, thx. Sad to think that fishing was once skilled labor. Then again, carpenters lived an upper class lifestyle then too.

It was either that sig or this one (http://blog.joehuffman.org/2005/01/09/QuoteOfTheDayAnthonyQBachler.aspx).

idelovski
06-13-2008, 07:42 PM
One of the reasons for miscommunication between older and newer generations is different
perception of time. As you get older, time passes so much faster and ten years ago doesn't
feel that long ago. (When I was 13 I couldn't understand why was Roger Waters so obsessed
with time - now I now).

A very good point about it is illustrated in movie Frantic when Harrison Ford and Emmanuelle
Seigner start talking about music and they both say they like "old" music. She points to the
radio and Grace Jones, the song is "I've seen that face before" if I remember well the rhythm
and the atmosphere. Well, this isn't old he says. Yes! It is! Five, maybe even six years old. He
just rolls his eyes: he meant old music like from the 60s or 70s, for Christ's sake.

brewbuck
06-14-2008, 12:38 AM
why would anyone have to be qualified to have an opinion about music?

I don't think there is an "elite" which understands music better than the rest of us. But there are certainly people who understand the HISTORY of music in a way that many others don't. This is really a matter of knowledge, not opinion.

And of course, there is such a thing as "musical genius" which I have no doubt exists as a true phenomenon. Some people just have brains wired for it, while the rest of us are limited to just sit back and enjoy it without really understanding how it gets created.

Some music just sucks, indisputably, regardless of opinion. I won't say anything about "modern hip hop/pop." I'm guilty of listening to it myself. But it's just background noise to me. For instance the new Madonna/Timberlake track somehow gets me going, even though on some intellectual level I realize it's junk.

Neo1
06-14-2008, 10:15 AM
It's not babbling some crap that you may or may not have just made up.

Being able to do a good freestyle rap session requires just as much skill as improvising with any other instrument. Anyways, that comment was obviously flamebait, and i ate it hook line and sinker, but whatever Abachler, it's the usual i guess?


The real problem here is that most of the people that talk about music arent qualified to have an opinion about music.

I'm sorry but that is just bull......... Why can't 2 "yuppies" discuss which cars they prefer, without knowing about all of the internal mechanics in the engine? I could tell you that i prefer a Toyota over a Chevrolet, and i'm certainly no mechanic, it might just be an opinion, but i thought that was the entire point of internet forums? To discuss stuff and exchange opinions?

Same goes for music, i might like a certain album or artist, without knowing how it was produced and without possesing the same skills as the artist. Does this make me a "........ing idiot"?

Mario F.
06-14-2008, 06:32 PM
Thanks on all the comments so far. I unfortunately got tied up with work that showed up at the last minute and haven't been able to keep up with the forum. But have read everything and collected some thoughts. Just a few comments on something I feel particularly important...

It's on the subject of qualification, or lack of it, in order to have an opinion about music...

"After all what do I know?". Well, I know enough. Regardless of what my knowledge of musical history might be, as a parent I develop a certain set of standards which I can only after much fighting allow to be dropped. After all, if it is in the nature of a teenager to be rebel, it's the nature of a parent to not allow it to happen. It's a tug-of-war I'm more than willing to participate.

Music is a very precise result of a certain culture. Her tastes and, more important, how she reacts to those tastes will help me determine which culture she is fitting in. For instance, she may eventually like R&B one day (much to my dismay), and I will always grunt about it trying to make her understand "simple" things like true composition, quality of lyrics, music writing... basically music as a true artistic expression and not as a commercial endeavor.

But what if she starts getting out on miniskirts and tops, cheap jewelery, tattoos and behaving like a R&B slut? Well, it became more than just listening to crap music, hasn't it? It became part of a her culture. Or, to be more precise, because it's how it works, she assimilated the culture behind that musical style. A particular culture, I want my daughter to be as far away as possible.

It is in this context that I have an opinion about music. My own personal tastes, as Neo, mike and brewbuck addressed, also allow me to have an opinion (like, dislike, think is great, think is total crap). But things get more serious when it's my own daughter. And then, yes, I'm fully qualified to say what I don't like or like. And I couldn't care less if I didn't know one line of musical history or music making.

CornedBee
06-16-2008, 02:54 AM
How much of the music of the 60s and 70s was junk? How many one-shot artists were there, hampered only by the lower distribution rate of those times?

A local radio station here in Vienna has a weakly feature they call the "Retro Charts". They pick a year from anywhere between 1955 and 1999 and play the charts of the current date in that year. The amount of crap you hear there is amazing.

Bad music fades, good music stays. That's one reason why, when you think back to the sixties and seventies, you remember the good stuff, but when you look at today's music, you'll have a hard time picking the good stuff out from all the junk that is produced. Look again in ten years, and the dirt will have eroded away, leaving the gems exposed.


There are other influences, of course. I believe that the culture in general is headed for more "immediate satisfaction", which requires more music to be produced, and quality suffers from the quantity.

Also, I think people listen to music more. Before the walkman came out, you were limited to listening to music at home or in places where music was played. Switching music meant manually changing the tape or LP or whatever medium was used. Nowadays the portable MP3 players store hundreds of hours of music, and so do the non-portable ones, so you can effectively listen to music non-stop.
More listening to music means the songs get old faster. Which means you need new songs. Again, quantity over quality - even "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" (in my opinion the best song ever written) gets old if you listen to it twice every day.

Shaun32887
06-18-2008, 06:03 PM
I think the problem is that you're looking mainly at mainstream music. While there are some jems to be found (personally I'm a big fan of anything Billy Howerdel oh Danny Lohner does), there's always some good stuff under the surface. As a 21 year old musician myself, I've wondered the same thing, the music of my generation seems to have no longevity, the "hits" come and go like the seasons. No one pulls out old albums of any major artist, they chew them up like gum and spit them to the trash after their flavor runs out. But, if you look hard enough you can always find something good. King's X is a good example. They exist right under the surface, and in my opinion, are a great band. Solid structure, great musical proficiency, SOLID guitar work, catchy riffs, soulful vocals... I can go on for days. The problem is, the people in the band aren't young idiot kids, so they'll never get TV spots.

So what's going on? Alex Lifeson (mighta been Geddy or Niel, but I think it was alex) once said that if the industry worked like it does now back when they got started, Rush would be unheard of. Why? Industries used to sign a band for 2 or three albums. They started off as a niche and gradually their appeal broadened. Today, if a band's first single flops, goodbye. It's very frustrating, but it's all money driven.

So what's the solution? Take money out of the equation.

www.myspace.com

Originally designed for musicians, that site is slowly weakening the grip thatthe media has on us. Radio? Forget it, Clear Channel owns everything and will soon play nothing other than hip hop and R&B. Justin Timberlake on every station. TV? When's the last time you saw a music video on MTV? No, go to the internet. With the power of social networking and instant communications, the internet is the new platform. The best music of this generation will probably be found streaming for free. There's no record company to taint the artists vision, and any kid with a guitar, mic and computer can be heard by millions. Granted there's a lot to sift through, but if you want good music, you've gotta put in some work. www.pandora.com is a great site too.


That was very long for a first post, but it's a topic I feel pretty strongly about. Sorry if I rambled a bit. My name's Shaun, I'm new here. I guess I'll go introduce myself...


Edit: I didn't see the extra pages of discussion, my mistake. Sorry if anything I touched on has been remarked upon already.

Mario F.
06-18-2008, 07:39 PM
Well, thank you very much for your thoughts Shaun. And welcome.
Curious about Pandora...

BMJ
06-18-2008, 08:39 PM
Definitely going to give a shout-out to Pandora. I've picked up a lot of great music thanks to it. Though, it does take some time to "teach" the stations properly. :)

idelovski
06-19-2008, 09:07 AM
More listening to music means the songs get old faster. Which means you need new songs. Again, quantity over quality - even "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" (in my opinion the best song ever written) gets old if you listen to it twice every day.

Well, you really struck a cord with "While My Guitar Gently Weeps", at least for me.

I have that song on my car's current mp3 mix. Re-mastered version from the recent Love album. I liked that song when I was kid and I like it now. Usually, I play it twice. Harrison did only a few songs, but all of them were really something.

But, yes, you have a point - I made a very long pause, I don't think I have listened to that song even once between 1986/7 and 2007 when I bought Love out of curiosity.

cyberfish
06-22-2008, 12:20 AM
Wow. Such a long thread and no one has mentioned classical music, yet. Unless I missed it, of course, my apologies then. The conductor of an orchestra that I play in told us that, what we consider classical music today, used to be popular music back then, 3 or 4 hundred years ago. People would welcome someone like Rossini to town to stage a live performance of "classical music". And they have their fans that would cheer for them, just like how "musicians" nowadays do. I wonder what has changed since then.

I love classical music, and no, I don't have crazy musical background. And I am 18 :). So while Mario you have a generation gap between you and your daughter, I have one with most people of my own age.

Oh and I agree modern pop is largely garbage. Most of them have little musical content, and nonsense lyrics. When I listen to music I have a tendency to ignore the lyric (if there is one), and actually listen for the music. With modern pop, I can't. There is nothing underneath those spoken words, except maybe constant drum-rolls.

I guess I listen to music many many generations earlier than everyone here :).

Mario F.
06-22-2008, 05:22 AM
I pretty sure most everyone here enjoys classical music. Some more, some less, but all agreeing it's an enthralling experience. My favorites are Eastern European and Russian composers, my favorite epoch is the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and my all-time favorite composer is perhaps Tchaikovsky, but certainly being unfair on all accounts since I can really enjoy about any composer from any time period and location from Giovanni Palestrina, to Michael Edgerton, spanning 5 centuries, 3 continents and 5 periods.

The topic however, was more to do with mainstream contemporary music styles

indigo0086
06-22-2008, 05:51 AM
I don't enjoy classical as much as I do modern Orchestrial music. I like classical and it even has roots in genres you'd never think they did (jazz being one of them) but I like the more modern stuff.

cyberfish
06-22-2008, 02:06 PM
Ah. All is well then :) I thought no one cares about classical anymore.

shawnt
06-23-2008, 11:27 AM
This is going to sound strange, but the reason I speak of this is because I worry about generation clashes. In short, I want to learn how to speak with my daughter...

Do you remember you parents telling you music these days is no good and in their time things were better? I had mine saying this back in the days when I was listening to bands like Fischer-Z, The Cult, Queen, Led Zeppelin (even though this one is from their time), Meat Loaf, Pink Floyd (Roger Water's pink floyd. Just not the same without him), and a million other et ceteras. It was part of my education this intimate knowledge that my parents could never understand me and my times.

So what happens now? I listen to today's music and I vomit. What happened to the 60's to 90's proliferation of colossal bands? What is this that we hear today? Smashing hits that don't last in your hear more than 12 months when bands like Rolling Stones or Nirvana produced songs that gained their place in history.

Even the rap and hip-hop crap we hear today. Do you remember when rap became popular back in the early 90s? Do you remember the quality of lyrics and rap structure of Wu-Tang or Snoop Dog. Do you remember the rap wars? What is this I hear today? What is this crap? And hip-hop... don't get me started on the worst musical style since elevator music was invented.

What's worst? Do you remember a time when mainstream popular bands and singers composed their own songs and lyrics? When they mastered writing and composing along with performing? When you knew that what you were listening to was what was in their hearts. What is this crap I see today? Semi-naked wonderful bodies, pretty faces and ass shaking to go along with songs you cannot remember next year written and produced by someone else who just wants to use their pretty faces.

I vomit and I suffer from chronic yearning. I wish I was back in my youth getting extremely high on Led Zeppelin - Been Loving You, closing my eyes and drinking every sound of U2 - One, bowing my head in respect to names like Vangelis, Cult, Cure, Doors, Procol Harum, Thin Lizzy, Ozzy Osborn, Jimmy Hendrix, and learning for the first time how to love a woman to the sound of Gary Moore - Parisienne Walkways.

So... what's wrong with me? Is it a generation clash or is indeed the music that changed to worst?


Jesus Christ. Couldn't agree with you more. I highly suspect that anyone with the slightest inclination towards intellectualism has felt this way about contemporary music some time or another.

I'll keep it short. Personally, I think the music industry became a purely capitalistic machine (disclaimer: i am not against capitalism. i use the term here to ephasize commercialization) as soon as producers embraced what I personally call the 99-1 principle.

The 99-1 principle states that 99% of all people are basically, sheep. Not that they have sub-par IQs, but simply that they accept whatever is preached as the worldview to be gospel. They do not critically analyze anything beyond simple cost-benefit. They are primarily concerned with survival, at a level that is only slightly higher than biological. The 1% of the population who have a superior general awareness and criticial thinking are the one's who are responsible for delivering the truly valuable products of humanity....like technology, innovation, music, arts...stuff that makes human life better as a whole. This principle holds true universally across the world, regardless of nationality, ethnicity, or religion.

Since the majority of the urban populus is interested in being obscenely rich and indulging in hedonism, hence results the popularity of c-rap. Since kids now read fewer book and fare worse in schools, hence the borderline juvenile content and quality of popular music. And since this has been going on for decades, hence we now have adults who listen to the kind of music that sounds like it was written by teenagers.

whiteflags
06-23-2008, 12:31 PM
Ah. All is well then :) I thought no one cares about classical anymore.

I might play violin - I've wanted to get into orchestra and music for a while.


Jesus Christ. Couldn't agree with you more. I highly suspect that anyone with the slightest inclination towards intellectualism has felt this way about contemporary music some time or another.

I'll keep it short. Personally, I think the music industry became a purely capitalistic machine (disclaimer: i am not against capitalism. i use the term here to ephasize commercialization) as soon as producers embraced what I personally call the 99-1 principle.


Interesting principle, but I really doubt it's an intellectual thing. I mean, people who care about music will find samples of genres to be proud of. Pop in the eighties was huge, and it's pretty much Michael Jackson's fault. Radio stations have to go mainstream and play the latest tunes, just because their clinging to their business model (rather than doing at least one dedicated podcast to break out), and need to catch listeners rather than let listeners come to them.

It's not that music suddenly sucks, but marketing sucks, and it always has. It doesn't matter what your test scores are.

shawnt
06-23-2008, 12:45 PM
Interesting principle, but I really doubt it's an intellectual thing. I mean, people who care about music will find samples of genres to be proud of. Pop in the eighties was huge, and it's pretty much Michael Jackson's fault. Radio stations have to go mainstream and play the latest tunes, just because their clinging to their business model (rather than doing at least one dedicated podcast to break out), and need to catch listeners rather than let listeners come to them.

It's not that music suddenly sucks, but marketing sucks, and it always has. It doesn't matter what your test scores are.

I agree with what you said, but you're proving my point indirectly. The marketing only sucks in that it promotes the distribution on the basis of popularity rather than quality. But its doesn't suck as a system because it works...it gets the $$. And the reason it works is because more people would rather listen to music that's easy to ...dare I say....comprehend? And the reason most people comprehend/enjoy such music is because of the 99-1 principle.

Btw...MJ's Thriller is orders of magnitude more structured, richer, and deeper than the no.1s today.

indigo0086
06-23-2008, 01:27 PM
Some of the greatest Jazz Musicians were "popular" same with rock-n-roll like chuck berry and elvis (though serious fans can get into arguments about which was a real rock-n-roller).

But back then for most jazz musicians being popular meant more than today than it does these days.