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medievalelks
06-06-2008, 06:04 AM
Not drugs, but rather the so-called oldest profession - prostitution. I'm speaking mainly of the US because I'm ignorant of laws in other countries.

I say yes. It's a business transaction between two consenting adults. I don't see how this is different from going to a bar, picking up someone, and then sleeping with them the same night. Maybe the bars are against legalizing it since it would cut out the middleman.

And of course, you have the benefits of eliminating the black market - safer work environment, freeing up of law enforcement to worry about real crimes, etc.

Like drugs, the legalization of this wouldn't lead to my participation, but the government shouldn't criminalize it, in my opinion.

Elysia
06-06-2008, 06:15 AM
I'm somewhat torn on the issue, myself. Who's to stop someone from doing something they like? It doesn't have any negative effects on the body (mostly anyway).
The only problem is that a lot do it because they are forced to and which is probably why it's banned in most countries.
I would like to say - yes, it should be allowed. If you want to do it, you're free to do it (but you shouldn't have to do it because you're forced to).
And I'm not for legalizing it just because to reduce the black market, but rather because it's to give more freedom.

CornedBee
06-06-2008, 06:32 AM
but you shouldn't have to do it because you're forced to
That's sexual abuse whether it's prostitution or not.

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 06:32 AM
Of course people should not be forced into any kind of relationship. Preventing that is a legitimate role of government.

whiteflags
06-06-2008, 06:36 AM
The "transaction between consenting adults" point of view seems to be an oversimplification. In my opinion, legalizing prostitution is out of the question since some pimps basically enslave women (and children) to a life of sexual acts or sexual promiscuity; at least, I think human trafficking is a bigger problem than we might realize. Law enforcement can usually only help when they bust brothels and that sort of thing, like what happened when the FBI arrested these people (http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=43302) here. I cannot approve legalizing an activity that makes eliminating human trafficking from the free world a near impossible task.

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 06:38 AM
The "transaction between consenting adults" point of view seems to be an oversimplification. In my opinion, legalizing prostitution is out of the question since some pimps basically enslave women (and children) to a life of sexual acts or sexual promiscuity;

But why does the pimp/prostitute relationship exist? Because they need the pimps to enforce payment for them. They can't simply call the cops when a john walks out without paying. They also can't call the cops when they're abused or enslaved.

It's an underground business run by thugs. Eliminate the underground.

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 06:44 AM
Walk around Las Vegas for a few hours... sit at the bars, try to have a good time, and relax with your friends without interuption and then tell me you would like prostitution legalized. Prostitution, generally, brings crime and drugs along with it (in the same manner as gambling) as it tends to attract "the wrong crowd." Legalizing is too unrestrictive... I would perhaps say it would be more appropriate for police to turn a blind-eye to some forms of prostitution such as that done in a closed, fixed location such as, for lack of a better term, a "prostitution house." I would rather not see it on the streets of my city, though.

That's just my two cents.

Yarin
06-06-2008, 06:44 AM
No. No, No NoNoNoNo

Elysia
06-06-2008, 06:46 AM
That's sexual abuse whether it's prostitution or not.

The "transaction between consenting adults" point of view seems to be an oversimplification. In my opinion, legalizing prostitution is out of the question since some pimps basically enslave women (and children) to a life of sexual acts or sexual promiscuity; at least, I think human trafficking is a bigger problem than we might realize. Law enforcement can usually only help when they bust brothels and that sort of thing, like what happened when the FBI arrested these people (http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=43302) here. I cannot approve legalizing an activity that makes eliminating human trafficking from the free world a near impossible task.

These two are sexual abuse, but unrelated to prostitution.
If someone wants to prostitute out of will, then they be allowed to do so. The law should protect against those who would take advantage of that.
I see that the will to do it should be allowed. But abuse and other things should not be allowed, but they aren't part of the prostitution topic.

The black market and all that is sad, but I'd allow it simply for the sake to allow the freedom to do it. It's a natural thing to do it, so there should be no reason to disallow it.
Crime, though, should be punished.

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 06:49 AM
Walk around Las Vegas for a few hours... sit at the bars, try to have a good time, and relax with your friends without interuption and then tell me you would like prostitution legalized. Prostitution, generally, brings crime and drugs along with it (in the same manner as gambling) as it tends to attract "the wrong crowd.".

So, the rest of us will magically become part of the "wrong crowd" just because something is legal? You're seeing a heavy concentration of the "wrong crowd" in one of the few places these things are legal.

And cities and townships can regulate where it is allowed, as they do with other businesses. That's why you don't see street vendors of all types on every street corner. Why would prostitution be different?

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 06:52 AM
To add to my last point about enclosed prostitution vs street prostitution:

Legalized street prostitution tends to promote incidents of statutory rape. As you would imagine, if it were allowed that anyone willing to give their body for money by putting themselves out on the street, you would certainly attract a certain group of desperate people looking for money that will not be checking the IDs of their customers. Now you have a 28 year old prostitute sleeping with a 14 year old kid. That, consentual or not, is illegal in the US.

In a regulated environment, they don't have to let you in the door without checking IDs.

That's two more cents for you all.

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 06:57 AM
T Now you have a 28 year old prostitute sleeping with a 14 year old kid. That, consentual or not, is illegal in the US..

Of course. What part of "consenting ADULTS" do you not understand? Strawman arguments are not going to sway my opinion.

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 06:59 AM
So, the rest of us will magically become part of the "wrong crowd" just because something is legal? You're seeing a heavy concentration of the "wrong crowd" in one of the few places these things are legal.

And cities and townships can regulate where it is allowed, as they do with other businesses. That's why you don't see street vendors of all types on every street corner. Why would prostitution be different?You're comparing a street vendor to a prostitute? What are they? Entrepreneurs? You think they're going to go to city hall and get their prostitute licence? Check the zoning laws?

Prostitutes are victims of desperation in society... dispite what they may tell you, they don't all love having intercourse with every person willing to give them money for it. They put themselves at risk of disease, rape, robbery, and pregnancy because they need the money to support themselves better than what they feel a normal job can offer them.

...and for every guy who goes to a prostitute thinking his the toast of the town and treats all his girls with respect, there are five that just want to get a quickie with a girl they would normally never have a chance with. They are with no respect for the girl and are capable of providing her with all of the risks listed above. So please... don't compare these girls (or guys) to hotdog vendors.

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 07:04 AM
Of course. What part of "consenting ADULTS" do you not understand? Strawman arguments are not going to sway my opinion.Yeah great... that's like saying "Let's leave the doors to our stores open at night and hope noone steals anything." I'm sure the prostitutes and customers are really going to make sure they're both "consenting ADULTS" because the law says so. Do you really want to open up a whole new division of law enforcement that makes sure all prostitution transactions are between consenting adults and pay for it with taxes?

...and please, while you're pondering that... look up Straw-Man argument. There is nothing fallacious about considering the potential results of an action. ...and also, look up the dozen or so European cities that have legalized prostitution in the last 10 or so years and look at what it did to their crime rates. Just cause I use Las Vegas as an example, doesn't mean it's the only example.

QuantumPete
06-06-2008, 07:11 AM
I'd vote yes, but only because I don't live in the US, so I don't care ;)

QuantumPete

whiteflags
06-06-2008, 07:13 AM
But why does the pimp/prostitute relationship exist? Because they need the pimps to enforce payment for them. They can't simply call the cops when a john walks out without paying. It's an underground business run by thugs. Eliminate the underground.


The point I tried to illustrate was that some prostitutes never wanted to be prostitutes. The whole reason this is a slavery issue is because people are kidnapped or duped by a false promise, and suddenly find themselves part of a "business" they had no intention of being in. How will we honestly know the people who are happiest simply being prostitutes and not the ones being trafficked around against their will?

There is evidence that the prostitution business isn't simply filled with young twenty-somethings who've made their own descisions. I highly recommend at least looking at the problem of human trafficking before you consider legalizing prostitution. I mean some of the facts (which I picked up here (http://www.traffickingaz.org/resources.htm)) are startling. The latest U.S. Government figures indicate that between 14,500 and 17,500 people are trafficked into the United States for forced labor every year. The United Nations reports that United States is one of the top three countries to which people are trafficked into modern-day slavery. Look up any happy statistic to let you know that a good chunk of those people are going to work in the sex industry (I use the word loosely). You might argue that it's a business but it's impossible to tell apart willing participants, and what exactly brought them into the business.

What would become of current victims? That might seem silly too, but we need the ways and the means to make sure that current victims had a recourse, and you would need one hell of an application process. I don't think legalization is practical and I think it undermines the minimum standard we have set with the current statutes for sex crimes.

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 07:15 AM
I'd vote yes, but only because I don't live in the US, so I don't care ;)

QuantumPeteGreat... it's nice to see the Brits planting the seeds of destruction in the modern empire. :)

Don't worry... it won't be long before England's colonizing again. :p

QuantumPete
06-06-2008, 07:16 AM
Great... it's nice to see the Brits planting the seeds of destruction in the modern empire. :)

Don't worry... it won't be long before England's colonizing again. :p

What makes you think I'm British? ;)

QuantumPete

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 07:17 AM
What makes you think I'm British? ;)

QuantumPeteWell, you claim to live there and that's good enough for me. :)

QuantumPete
06-06-2008, 07:21 AM
Well, you claim to live there and that's good enough for me. :)

lol, in that case my emigration to the US will be much simpler :D

QuantumPete

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 07:27 AM
The point I tried to illustrate was that some prostitutes never wanted to be prostitutes. The whole reason this is a slavery issue is because people are kidnapped or duped by a false promise, and suddenly find themselves part of a "business" they had no intention of being in. How will we honestly know the people who are happiest simply being prostitutes and not the ones being trafficked around against their will?

There is evidence that the prostitution business isn't simply filled with young twenty-somethings who've made their own descisions. I highly recommend at least looking at the problem of human trafficking before you consider legalizing prostitution. I mean some of the facts (which I picked up here (http://www.traffickingaz.org/resources.htm)) are startling.

You're missing the point. If it's legalized, there is no market for illegal trafficking.

GanglyLamb
06-06-2008, 07:32 AM
Indeed the same story applies here, legalize , cut out underground and everything will be better. Again I refer to the Netherlands they have red districts where prostitution is legal, anyone "whoring" outside of these so called red districts is instantly arrested.

Furthermore the one who owns the prostitution house (cant find the english word - anyhow) has to register all women/men that work there, so they can prove they are allowed to exercise whatever they do (probably get some id card as well...). Anyhow it worked out well over there so why not in the US. Thats why I voted yes (although I dont live there).

whiteflags
06-06-2008, 07:34 AM
You're missing the point. If it's legalized, there is no market for illegal trafficking.

Only because people who were victims at some point suddenly aren't, and their word wouldn't hold up in the court of law. I think I asked a valid question or two which you have conveniently avoided.

Elysia
06-06-2008, 07:35 AM
Furthermore the one who owns the prostitution house (cant find the english word - anyhow) has to register all women/men that work there, so they can prove they are allowed to exercise whatever they do (probably get some id card as well...). Anyhow it worked out well over there so why not in the US. Thats why I voted yes (although I dont live there).

Although, if you don't mind me asking: who says they DO register everyone who's there and not hide some people?

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 07:42 AM
Anyhow it worked out well over there so why not in the US. Thats why I voted yes (although I dont live there).Define worked out well. Those red-light districts certainly do have higher crime than the rest of Amsterdam and I think you'd have to be kidding yourself if you believe you couldn't find prostitution outside of the red-light district. Certainly not on the busy street corners, which is good... but like any other place where it's illegal... it's still there tucked in the dark. Some people can't afford to open up a legal prostitution business for one reason or another... but it doesn't mean they don't have the sound mind to realize that an illegal prostitution parlor near the red light district will get more through-traffic than one placed elsewhere. Especially if you're going to charge less than the legal alternative.

However, I do believe that much of Amesterdam's appeal is a gimmick. There are not many places in the world that offer similar laws and because of that, they get a lot of tourism. In truth, I'm sure Amsterdam would hate it if the US legalized prostitution as they would probably take a major hit on their own tourism.

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 07:44 AM
Although, if you don't mind me asking: who says they DO register everyone who's there and not hide some people?Exactly... it's no different than hiring illegal immigrants in any other business. If they're will to work for cheaper, then there is an employer willing to hide them.

*applauds Elysia for making a good point*

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 07:47 AM
Let's try this again since you didn't like my last answer.


The point I tried to illustrate was that some prostitutes never wanted to be prostitutes. The whole reason this is a slavery issue is because people are kidnapped or duped by a false promise, and suddenly find themselves part of a "business" they had no intention of being in. How will we honestly know the people who are happiest simply being prostitutes and not the ones being trafficked around against their will?

Sex slavery is bad, and it is a black market business driven by the demand for prostitutes and the illegality of prostitution.



There is evidence that the prostitution business isn't simply filled with young twenty-somethings who've made their own descisions. I highly recommend at least looking at the problem of human trafficking before you consider legalizing prostitution. I mean some of the facts (which I picked up here (http://www.traffickingaz.org/resources.htm)) are startling.

See above.


The latest U.S. Government figures indicate that between 14,500 and 17,500 people are trafficked into the United States for forced labor every year. The United Nations reports that United States is one of the top three countries to which people are trafficked into modern-day slavery. Look up any happy statistic to let you know that a good chunk of those people are going to work in the sex industry (I use the word loosely). You might argue that it's a business but it's impossible to tell apart willing participants, and what exactly brought them into the business.

See above. Black markets go away when their product is removed from the illegal list.


What would become of current victims? That might seem silly too, but we need the ways and the means to make sure that current victims had a recourse, and you would need one hell of an application process. I don't think legalization is practical and I think it undermines the minimum standard we have set with the current statutes for sex crimes.

I don't know, but I have to ask if you had the same concern for young people forced into dealing drugs as a way of living in the other thread?

QuantumPete
06-06-2008, 07:48 AM
You're missing the point. If it's legalized, there is no market for illegal trafficking.

That's a bit naive, no? Just because it's legal, doesn't mean there aren't still people forced to work against their will. And while working as a prostitute won't contravene the law, being a slave will...

QuantumPete

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 07:51 AM
That's a bit naive, no? Just because it's legal, doesn't mean there aren't still people forced to work against their will. And while working as a prostitute won't contravene the law, being a slave will...


Forcing someone to work against their will is illegal, and if reported to the authorities, it will be stopped. First, I believe the ability of those who control the supply and can force people to work as prostitutes will be greatly reduced. They'll have legal, lower priced competition.

Second, I would think someone would be more likely to report being coerced to do something legal rather than something illegal.

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 07:53 AM
Exactly... it's no different than hiring illegal immigrants in any other business. If they're will to work for cheaper, then there is an employer willing to hide them.

*applauds Elysia for making a good point*

Um, why do *illegal* immigrants work for far less money? And what motivation would a prostitute have to work for less when they can legitimately work for much more?

QuantumPete
06-06-2008, 07:54 AM
They'll have legal, lower priced competition.

I think you will find that the illegal version of anything will always be cheaper. I don't see people paying $50 for a track on bittorrent anytime soon.

QuantumPete

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 07:54 AM
I don't know, but I have to ask if you had the same concern for young people forced into dealing drugs as a way of living in the other thread?Don't even compare the two... most of the supporters for legalization of marijuana in the other thread related it to the fact that there is taxable income to be made there. It's completely naive to think that because prostitution is made legal that a majority of it still won't be done under the table. Unlike marijuana the legalization of prostitution would not benefit the government (to any significant extent). The ends will simply not outweight the means.

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 07:58 AM
Don't even compare the two... most of the supporters for legalization of marijuana in the other thread related it to the fact that there is taxable income to be made there. It's completely naive to think that because prostitution is made legal that a majority of it still won't be done under the table. Unlike marijuana the legalization of prostitution would not benefit the government (to any significant extent). The ends will simply not outweight the means.

Nonsense. It would be a taxable business like any other. And as far as being "under the table", you're begging the question. There is no more stigma associated with prostitution than there is with drug use, maybe less.

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 07:59 AM
Um, why do *illegal* immigrants work for far less money? And what motivation would a prostitute have to work for less when they can legitimately work for much more?Are you dreaming? Where can they work legitimately for much more money? An independant prostitute can make on any given night upwards to $1000-$2000. Where are these people going to find a legitimate job that pays the same? Like I said... prostitutes get into the business cause they're desperate. They have expensive habits and no legitimate means to support them. If you don't think that's true, then you've sugar-coated your reality.
There is no more stigma associated with prostitution than there is with drug use, maybe less.Oh my... you are dreaming. There is as much stigma with the smoking of marijuana as there is with prostitution?

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 08:01 AM
Are you dreaming? Where can they work legitimately for much more money? An independant prostitute can make on any given night upwards to $1000-$2000. Where are these people going to find a legitimate job that pays the same? Like I said... prostitutes get into the business cause they're desperate. They have expensive habits and no legitimate means to support them. If you don't think that's true, then you've sugar-coated your reality.Oh my... you are dreaming.

I was pointing out that your comparison to illegal immigrants working for less was flawed. They are forced to work for less because they can't work legally in this country. They take what they can get.

What is the parallel to prositution if it's legal? Why would a prostitute work for far less when she can legally make more? It's nonsensical.

GanglyLamb
06-06-2008, 08:02 AM
Although, if you don't mind me asking: who says they DO register everyone who's there and not hide some people?


Yes and just like people who harbour people to work for them without paying taxes can get raids by a task force to search for them...

Example:
I take a car and drive it around a bit without license, who will know ? No one unless someone stops me and asks for my drivers license.
Legalizing and controlling by setting up task forces and conduct regular searches/raids go hand in hand.



However, I do believe that much of Amesterdam's appeal is a gimmick. There are not many places in the world that offer similar laws and because of that, they get a lot of tourism. In truth, I'm sure Amsterdam would hate it if the US legalized prostitution as they would probably take a major hit on their own tourism.


I didnt even knew Amsterdam had such an appeal, to me its just another capital in another country. There are enough places in this world where you can do whatever you want and get away with it by using the correct leverage (read bribe), the only difference is that in the Netherlands they are using common sense.
You cannot wipe out corruption , underground activities etc if the soil where it can grow is enough potent to sustain it. And clearing that ground of its potency is exactly what they do over there.

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 08:06 AM
There is as much stigma with the smoking of marijuana as there is with prostitution?

I wouldn't want my employer, family, priest, etc. knowing I did either. I can't imagine many people would.

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 08:07 AM
What is the parallel to prositution if it's legal? Why would a prostitute work for far less when she can legally make more? It's nonsensical.So I guess you aren't reading what people have said, then... why would a prostitute work illegally when they can work legally for more. Let's think about this? Well for one... they might be illegal immigrants themselves. After all, we've already established that prostitution is an occupation of desperation... who is more desperate for money than people living in a country illegally? Can I think of any? How about... drug users... felons... underage runaways... I'm sure they don't need money *that bad* that they wouldn't work in prostitution for less money than the legal professionals.

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 08:09 AM
I wouldn't want my employer, family, priest, etc. knowing I did either. I can't imagine many people would.Really? Do you watch TV or read news papers? Do you want to count up the number of people that openly admit they enjoy marijuana to the people that openly admit they visit prostitutes?

I'll start...

For many of my teen years, I smoked pot with my friends and I enjoyed it. I haven't smoked for about three years, now. See? I had no problem admitting that... do you think I'm special?

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 08:11 AM
So I guess you aren't reading what people have said, then... why would a prostitute work illegally when they can work legally for more. Let's think about this? Well for one... they might be illegal immigrants themselves. After all, we've already established that prostitution is an occupation of desperation... who is more desperate for money than people living in a country illegally? Can I think of any? How about... drug users... felons... underage runaways... I'm sure they don't need money *that bad* that they wouldn't work in prostitution for less money than the legal professionals.

But...none of the people you mentioned above could get *any* job above board. This is a problem with illegal immigration, felons, etc., not with prostitution.

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 08:13 AM
Really? Do you watch TV or read news papers? Do you want to count up the number of people that openly admit they enjoy marijuana to the people that openly admit they visit prostitutes?

Anecdotal.




I'll start...

For many of my teen years, I smoked pot with my friends and I enjoyed it. I haven't smoked for about three years, now. See? I had no problem admitting that... do you think I'm special?

So this boils down to what you find acceptable and what you don't find acceptable. I think that's the case with most folks. They don't want a nanny state, unless they get to be the nanny. Because after all, they know what is best for everyone.

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 08:19 AM
I didnt even knew Amsterdam had such an appeal, to me its just another capital in another country.Really? You mean the dozens of movies that reference the desire to visit Amsterdam for the prostitution and marijuana didn't clue you in?

I appreciate your arguments and I agree that Amsterdam has done some things correctly to clear the ground of its potency, as you put it. However, the factors that lead to marijuana use and the factors that lead to prostitution are very different. One is fairly innoncent (simple curiousity) and the other is not (desperation). Prostitution your body is led by the same factors that lead someone to rob a store. A desire for money at the risks of what I listed above. Taking away the potential that you may be arrested will not destroy the risk in being a prostitute. It will still be a job only for those desperate enough to accept the risks and as such it will remain in majority under ground with "the wrong crowd."

There is nothing wrong with someone enjoying the company of someone and willing to pay for it... it's human nature to want companionship. I'm not throwing you in the wrong crowd if you enjoy this... but the fact is, among those who do enjoy this... you're attracting almost anyone and everyone willing to violate the morals and respect of these women.

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 08:24 AM
But...none of the people you mentioned above could get *any* job above board. This is a problem with illegal immigration, felons, etc., not with prostitution.Well congratualions on finally understanding the point... so now that we agree that there are a certain niche of desperate people in this country... those that cannot find legal employment... are we willing to agree that within that group there are people that would rather sell their bodies for a lot of money than work in a grocery store for below minimum wage?
Both with the same legal risks, I might add...

matsp
06-06-2008, 08:31 AM
Um, why do *illegal* immigrants work for far less money? And what motivation would a prostitute have to work for less when they can legitimately work for much more?

Because the employer of illegal immigrants can get away with paying them less, since they are not in the country legally. Do you think the customer of a prostitute cares whether the prostitute is "registered" or not, or whether he/she is paying taxes for example?


--
Mats

Elysia
06-06-2008, 08:37 AM
The problem I see is that legalizing something won't just make problems vanish in smokes...
Maybe it will undermine the black market... maybe not. Companies cheat regularly. Yes, legal companies.
That is to say, they can hide their customers, spoof their income and other things.
The government and the police will probably be on outlook, but... they can't catch everything. Do much still goes right by under their nose.
In this sense, legalizing it is no different from having it as illegal.

I simply vote for legal for the rights involved. I don't think it will solve the problems with prostitution in the society.

whiteflags
06-06-2008, 08:39 AM
I don't know, but I have to ask if you had the same concern for young people forced into dealing drugs as a way of living in the other thread?


That is a legitimate concern: drug users may end up selling drugs. Fortunately it's not topical to this debate. But drugs are a manufacted product which implies that it has an objective value in the first place. Is it ok for minors to sell drugs? Not in my opinion, but I don't see the consequences going away when we legalize the production and marketing of cannabis. Over half of meth houses are found with the help of concerned citizens, for example - I see the same thing could happen with finding unlicensed cannabis dealers. We have the ways and the means to regulate: as I pointed out to Elysia, the responsibilities of the DEA wouldn't go away when the law changes. Who the DEA arrests and under what circumstances would.

If a liscense to sell were falsified, their legal age would betray them if they were a young person, and you would simply convict in any other case. ... If I were a judge.

In the context of that argument, I guess we could argue simplicities. I don't think concerned citizens deserve to be confounded by the legal activities going on around them. I'd draw a parallel to other types of abuse (specifically in the home) and how difficult it is to prosecute. Because you've got the registered prostitute, and then you have the person who was coerced into the sex trade who needs to report her personal incident. Provided that even happens, then you need to employ the police to investigate the incident and find sufficient evidence to prosecute. But once again the vurden falls on the proponent in the debate. What would constitute sufficient evidence to convince a jury?

This is why I said it undermines the statute we have for other sex crimes. I have little faith in a simple registry in this case. Let's assume a prostitute has her pimp arrested: On one hand, you could prove that she has done sexual activity through physical evidence, but legal documentation for her employment could be easily falsified. We'd be dependent on the technology and eye witness testimony to convict which to me is not enough. I'd much rather convict all the cases. Selling yourself may be construed as a service, but given the difficulty I see in legal conviction and how it further obfuscates real abuse cases as I see it, I can't support it.

Moral decay was sort of shrugged off in this debate too, but that's ok.

Elysia suggested that human trafficking is unrelated to prostitution. Well, it is, if you squint really hard. There is no legitimate counterclaim yet: human trafficking is how prostution rings seem to be running themselves around the world, irrespective of the willing participants. I just wanted to point that out to you Elysia. If human trafficking is something that we would like the law to handle, then we must outlaw its practices as I see it. I find other approaches impractical.

GanglyLamb
06-06-2008, 08:41 AM
Really? You mean the dozens of movies that reference the desire to visit Amsterdam for the prostitution and marijuana didn't clue you in?

I appreciate your arguments and I agree that Amsterdam has done some things correctly to clear the ground of its potency, as you put it. However, the factors that lead to marijuana use and the factors that lead to prostitution are very different. One is fairly innoncent (simple curiousity) and the other is not (desperation). Prostitution your body is led by the same factors that lead someone to rob a store. A desire for money at the risks of what I listed above. Taking away the potential that you may be arrested will not destroy the risk in being a prostitute. It will still be a job only for those desperate enough to accept the risks and as such it will remain in majority under ground with "the wrong crowd."

There is nothing wrong with someone enjoying the company of someone and willing to pay for it... it's human nature to want companionship. I'm not throwing you in the wrong crowd if you enjoy this... but the fact is, among those who do enjoy this... you're attracting almost anyone and everyone willing to violate the morals and respect of these women.
As for the movies to be honest I have only seen one or two that talk about it, but like I said , you can easily replace Amsterdam with any place you like (Ill give you one since I know the situation there first hand: Lagos - Nigeria). Only difference is that in those other places those things are illegal but like said with the right leverage it makes it perfectly legal to do so (or at least it appears to be legal, thus lowering the step you have to take).

You are right about the risks involved with prostitution. But if I would need to choose with which prostitute I would do anything. Ill go for the legalised one, reason: much higher standards all around probably...

Compare an escort service that also offers sex as the cherry on top of the pie or a regular prostitute dwelling the streets ... Ill know which one to pick.

So be legalizing you raise standards and expectations, so the illegal ones will be getting less attraction, therefore making it less appealing to work in the underground community, since indeed the incentive for all this is money.

Elysia
06-06-2008, 08:44 AM
Elysia suggested that human trafficking is unrelated to prostitution. Well, it is, if you squint really hard. There is no legitimate counterclaim yet: human trafficking is how prostution rings seem to be running themselves around the world, irrespective of the willing participants. I just wanted to point that out to you Elysia. If human trafficking is something that we would like the law to handle, then we must outlaw its practices as I see it. I find other approaches impractical.

Yes, it's true that trafficking and sexual abuse are often tied to prostitution (where prostitution happens, these often happens too), but if you'd look at the law, they are two different things:
Sexual abuse or any other abuse is illegal by the law.
Prostitution is a term for selling the body for money, not abusing someone, and therefore, they are not the same thing.

I meant to separate these categories, because I do find nothing wrong in selling your body for money (if you like that sort of thing, not because you are forced to do it). However, there IS something wrong with abuse, and it should be disallowed. The law should protect against that.

medievalelks
06-06-2008, 08:47 AM
Really? You mean the dozens of movies that reference the desire to visit Amsterdam for the prostitution and marijuana didn't clue you in?

You keep citing television and movies. You know how many TV shows and movies say there are aliens among us?

SlyMaelstrom
06-06-2008, 08:49 AM
As for the movies to be honest I have only seen one or two that talk about it, but like I said , you can easily replace Amsterdam with any place you like (Ill give you one since I know the situation there first hand: Lagos - Nigeria). Only difference is that in those other places those things are illegal but like said with the right leverage it makes it perfectly legal to do so (or at least it appears to be legal, thus lowering the step you have to take).Yes, but you misunderstood the appeal being legal prostitution and marijuana. It's not... it's that on top of the fact that you're surrounded by a completely westernized culture. Something western tourism would feel more comfortable with. It's also nice because it's surrounded by other culture and history that many people find appealing (the other European countries included). The movies (and there are more than two) that reference Amsterdam aren't doing it because it's the easiest word to pronounce... they do it because it offers things that very, very few other communities offer.



So be legalizing you raise standards and expectations, so the illegal ones will be getting less attraction, therefore making it less appealing to work in the underground community, since indeed the incentive for all this is money.But that's where you're wrong. It will certainly make it less appealing to the above-ground commmunity and the people who can afford escorts... but for your guys that would rather not pay that much and just want a quickie... they'll settle for the illegal girls. And trust me... there is a large community of people that will not want to dish out the extra cash.