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manav
04-03-2008, 07:07 AM
Please don't feel that I want to start a flame war or any such stupid things.

By hearing some board members views (some on the board, and 1 in chat) I felt that although MS products are mostly good.
But their policies, and monopolizing nature is mostly considered bad.

But there are alternatives.
Mac being my least favorite. And Linux being a direct replacement of Windows.

Why don't we. At least the ones among us who are a little more than average user. Start using Linux. Even if side by side with Windows.
And also help doing away with pitfalls that we see in Linux world. See its open. Every body, who has the will, and skill,
can contribute.

I wish to see all forum members using Linux. It has improved a lot. And all software has its weaknesses.
So try to help it improving. And Lets use it.

At least a comment from the experienced members is what I am looking for.

:)

Elysia
04-03-2008, 07:18 AM
OK, here's the thing:
If you can suggest how to:

- Get rid of command lines entirely
- To run, install and use Linux without the use of the konsole
- Install drivers without the konsole
- Fix drivers and 5.1 surround for Creative X-fi
- Make wine run all Windows apps without command line
- Make it possible to run Visual Studio on Linux

Then I will consider it.

Prelude
04-03-2008, 07:20 AM
>Why don't we. At least the ones among us who are
>a little more than average user. Start using Linux.
Why don't you give everyone a good reason other than "I don't like Microsoft's business practices". Unless you're just a mindless adopter, there has to be a good reason to switch from an OS you know and are comfortable with (that does everything you need), to something completely different that may or may not meet your needs.

>Even if side by side with Windows.
Once again, there has to be a good reason to bother spending time with Linux.

I can guarantee that when you say "Everyone should use Linux!", you'll get a resounding "Why?" in response.

SlyMaelstrom
04-03-2008, 07:20 AM
> WinDoes MacOwes LinSucks

Your signature appears to disagree with the content of your thread.

Anyway, I don't know anyone who considers themself a C or C++ programmer that hasn't worked in both Linux and Windows. It's almost expected that you can operate cross-platform when you apply for a programming job (at least for a language that can be used cross-platform).

To be very honest, I use Windows for nearly everything except when I am developing for Linux and I see no reason at the current time to change my practices.

Mario F.
04-03-2008, 07:26 AM
OK, here's the thing:
If you can suggest how to:

- Get rid of command lines entirely
- To run, install and use Linux without the use of the konsole
- Install drivers without the konsole
- Fix drivers and 5.1 surround for Creative X-fi
- Make wine run all Windows apps without command line
- Make it possible to run Visual Studio on Linux

Then I will consider it.

Ok... a direct counterpart, if you don't mind. I'm sure others can even come up with better ;)

If you can:
- Reintroduce command line to windows as a real alternative
- To run, install and use Windows with the GUI interface I want, on the partition I want.
- Install drivers. Period. (you know what I mean)
- Force driver developers to be backwards compatible
- Make Microsoft Virtual PC go back to support Linux on its free version... as it always did before Microsoft bought it

As for "Make it possible to run Visual Studio on Linux", you got me there. However let it be said that gcc under linux is not one step behind Visual Studio on Windows. In fact, I would consider it to be far superior due to so much IDE availability, you get to throw up, a larger community support and a huge user base.

Anyways, make sure that happens and I maybe... well not really... go back to windows.

SlyMaelstrom
04-03-2008, 07:29 AM
you get to throw upThat's always a good thing.

Elysia
04-03-2008, 07:29 AM
It must be hard for you, poor sod :D
But on a serious note, those are the quarrels I've got for Linux and why I do not consider it an alternative to Windows.

PING
04-03-2008, 07:30 AM
- Get rid of command lines entirely
- To run, install and use Linux without the use of the konsole
- Install drivers without the konsole
- Fix drivers and 5.1 surround for Creative X-fi
- Make wine run all Windows apps without command line
- Make it possible to run Visual Studio on Linux


That is more like "Convert Linux to Windows and i will use it"

I don't see the need to use Linux just because one is better than the average user. Using windows doesn't make you a noob and using Linux doesn't make you 1337. It depends a lot on what the person wants from his system. For casual use windows is the best, but it has its drawbacks.. I personally use both Windows as well as Linux based systems. There are a few things i like bout both of them, I like linux because it is open source,stable and i can configure it to run exactly according to my specifications. Windows on the other hand is easy to install and use and all major software / hardware companies support the latest versions of windows, so getting drivers is not a headache. On the other hand, some distros of linux can be a pain to install and to get them to work with your system. I'd recommend a windows user to switch to linux only if he/she wants to learn a new OS. Apart from that i don't think it matters a lot as to whether you are using windows or linux.

Elysia
04-03-2008, 07:33 AM
Yep, agree with you there. A lot speaks of "Linux will take over Windows" but I doubt it will come true. Windows and Linux are two different flavors of the same thing. They will exist beside each other. Linux isn't my type, so I'm sticking with Windows.

manav
04-03-2008, 07:35 AM
My sig speaks the truth.

For most of us:
Windows Does the job.
Mac seems to OWE everything.
Linux sometimes Sucks because of its hackish origins.

Only one more comment for now, I will add more, as I get to know more about Linux.
Eclipse is superb. Forget MSVC. Use Eclipse on Linux.
And please don't say that run this from Windows on Linux.
Instead try explore on you own, you are not a newbie anymore, and you will most likely find similar stuff in Linux.

Elysia
04-03-2008, 07:38 AM
Only one more comment for now, I will add more, as I get to know more about Linux.
Eclipse is superb. Forget MSVC. Use Eclipse on Linux.
And please don't say that run this from Windows on Linux.
Instead try explore on you own, you are not a newbie anymore, and you will most likely find similar stuff in Linux.

Visual Studio is excellent because of its superior GUI and superior debugging facilities. Not to mention, no messing with command lines, each access to everything within the GUI, etc, etc.
Find me something similar on Linux.

Mario F.
04-03-2008, 07:44 AM
Visual Studio is excellent because of its superior GUI and superior debugging facilities. Not to mention, no messing with command lines, each access to everything within the GUI, etc, etc.
Find me something similar on Linux.

gcc. Suprised?

Again you are confusing personal preferences with what defines a product to be good. If that was the only reason Visual Studio was good then we might as well dump it. Visual Studio is excellent because it apparently produces lean mean code and does it fast. It's IDE is top notch (except for Intellisense) and offer a lot of features that augment productivity. It also offers functionality for team based development, which is a must these days. It's debugger is powerful and fast.

Now... That is why Visual Studio is great in my opinion. However, I'm yet to see any developers capable of running me or you in circles sustaining gcc is crap. Do you dare?

Elysia
04-03-2008, 07:49 AM
I don't think GCC is crap, but it is also a compiler, unlike Visual Studio which is an IDE.
And again, other compilers don't like MFC. Getting cl to run under Code::Blocks will be a pain. And from what I hear, it doesn't support the full debugging facilities of Visual Studio either, which is a shame.

Visual Studio also features stack overrun checks and the ability to monitor when a certain memory address changes, which are invaluable tools.

Mario F.
04-03-2008, 07:57 AM
You are correct. I mixed Visual Studio with Visual C++. I did find one IDE which is superior, in my opinion to Visual Studio. That's SlickEdit. It also costs over 200 USD

Mario F.
04-03-2008, 08:06 AM
Anyways, I'm with manav on this one and partially reject Prelude's "you have to have a good reason". The reason may not be so good and it may be entirely simply because one just wants to experiment new things. A trait I find common among software developers and any computer geeks.

Learning other operating systems is a bonus, in my opinion. Not something to be disgruntled about. It broadens horizons, it allows you to learn new ways of performing the same tasks and guess what... it enriches your resume. It is almost always also a pleasure. I'll be forever in love with NeXTStep and BeOS for instance. I'll never forget my time spent with classical Mac OS... and now my eagerness to learn anything Linux related.

Learning new programming languages is a common trait here. Some of them we do it just for the kicks, knowing it will only enrich ourselves, but will have little practical use. I don't see how learning a new OS is any different.

SlyMaelstrom
04-03-2008, 08:22 AM
I don't see how learning a new OS is any different.I don't believe Prelude was speaking against the idea of learning a new operating system. She was just taking some offense to the OP's direct (almost demanding) opinion that everyone in the forum should "Start using Linux."... and essentially the only reason he gave was "just because..." If you read my original post, you might see that I agree that people who wish to study a cross-platform language (such as the one this forum is based on), should be learning to write it in multiple platforms. However, it does not excuse the OPs inability to produce some decent reasoning to switch to Linux as you had done just a few posts later.

Anyway... I won't speak for her, this is just what I took from her post.

rags_to_riches
04-03-2008, 08:24 AM
Windows Does the job.
Probably depends a lot on the job.

Mac seems to OWE everything.
What the hell does that mean?

Linux sometimes Sucks because of its hackish origins.
Again, what does this mean? Windows never sucks then, I assume?

Personal preferences are just that. I use and like at least some aspects of all of these operating systems. Zealots for any side are just...well, annoying.

Elysia
04-03-2008, 08:27 AM
I think the last quote refers to that to that Linux isn't as compatible as Windows and it's usually more difficult to get things done, such as installing and using on Linux than on Windows.

Prelude
04-03-2008, 08:30 AM
>The reason may not be so good and it may be entirely
>simply because one just wants to experiment new things.
Wanting to experiment with new things a good reason. However, "because that guy over there told me to" isn't a good reason.

abachler
04-03-2008, 08:38 AM
I don't think GCC is crap, but it is also a compiler, unlike Visual Studio which is an IDE.


:rolleyes: Last I checked VS compiles as well, which means it is a compiler. What exactly do you mean by its not a compiler?

As for me, Im sticking with Windows at least until ReactOS hits beta. I will continue to use XP for as long as it is supported, since I already own 2 copies of it, Ill just use ReactOS on my auxillary systems. I wouldn't use vista if they gave it away free. It's just not compatible with my existing applications.

Elysia
04-03-2008, 08:39 AM
:rolleyes: Last I checked VS compiles as well, which means it is a compiler. What exactly do you mean by its not a compiler?

Visual Studio is the IDE and Visual C++ is the compiler if I don't remember incorrectly.

Mario F.
04-03-2008, 08:44 AM
Wanting to experiment with new things a good reason. However, "because that guy over there told me to" isn't a good reason.

Yes. After having read Sly's and yours remarks I have to agree. That's not a good reason.


I think the last quote refers to that to that Linux isn't as compatible as Windows

Can you please elaborate... and no! I refuse to agree with the notion things are more difficult to do in Linux. I've heard it on this thread before and now again. I'm as much a linux advocate as I am a Microsoft one. Remember the only reason I moved to Linux is simply because of a very much personal preference to do with the fact I don't want to use Vista. Ever. However, I still look at XP and 2000 as two great operating systems. But... linux more difficult? Heck, it is if you don't want to learn how to use it. C'mon.

abachler
04-03-2008, 08:50 AM
Visual Studio is the IDE and Visual C++ is the compiler if I don't remember incorrectly.

Ah, I can see your point, but I dont really consider them seperate products, since they are integrated into the same package. They just extended VS to compile more than just C/C++.

Wraithan
04-03-2008, 09:18 AM
abachler: You can use the compiler independant of the IDE and if I recall correctly you can use a differnet compiler with the IDE, Though most do neither and use the IDE with the compiler it comes with.

I run both Linux and Windows, I have a linux desktop, a windows desktop (for gaming) recently my laptop made the transition. I like both, I prefer linux for most tasks, it is simple for me to update my system automatically, just as simple as it is in windows, except it doesn't require me to reboot. I have Code::Blocks on all 3 computers, which is my IDE of choice.

Probably one of the nicest things I have on my linux computers that just isn't ready for windows yet is git, a SCR (source code repository) which takes the most inovative ideas from current SCRs and merged them into one extremely fast, easy to use package.

There are lots of good reasons to make the change, but if windows works for you, by all rights use it, there isn't a really good reason NOT to use windows.

brewbuck
04-03-2008, 09:28 AM
Why don't we. At least the ones among us who are a little more than average user. Start using Linux. Even if side by side with Windows.
And also help doing away with pitfalls that we see in Linux world. See its open. Every body, who has the will, and skill,
can contribute.

Welcome to... 1995?

I would definitely not call Linux a drop-in replacement of Windows. It doesn't claim to be, doesn't try to be, and isn't.

laserlight
04-03-2008, 09:37 AM
Probably one of the nicest things I have on my linux computers that just isn't ready for windows yet is git, a SCR (source code repository) which takes the most inovative ideas from current SCRs and merged them into one extremely fast, easy to use package.
Neither Bazaar nor Mercurial are quite ready for Windows either, though Bazaar comes closest of the three, but is also still the slowest of the three.

abachler
04-03-2008, 09:39 AM
Linux is in no position to replace windows, nor vice versa. They both have their uses. Until it becomes far more AVERAGE user friendly, Linux has no chance of replacing windows. Until Microsoft makes windows open source it has no chance of replacing linux.

indigo0086
04-03-2008, 09:41 AM
Hans Reiser used Linux...

Think about it.

laserlight
04-03-2008, 09:43 AM
Hans Reiser used Linux...

Think about it.
Just don't use ReiserFS and you're safe :p

abachler
04-03-2008, 09:50 AM
Hans Reiser used Linux...

Think about it.
Using linux will turn you into a homicidal deadbeat dad, point taken. :

Mario F.
04-03-2008, 09:55 AM
Neither Bazaar nor Mercurial are quite ready for Windows either, though Bazaar comes closest of the three, but is also still the slowest of the three.

Probably because of its python codebase.

It's an unfortunate characteristic of windows this apparent lack of initiative regarding SCM. Everything that mattered (at least to my knowledge) was ported from Linux. However both CVS and SVN are widely used now; despite torvalds criticism I find SVN almost everywhere I look.

Baazar would indeed be a great addition to windows. It's philosophy of providing compatibility with other SCMs may still prove to be its biggest asset in both the Linux and Windows world.

indigo0086
04-03-2008, 09:57 AM
Just don't use ReiserFS and you're safe :p


But one MUST!

brewbuck
04-03-2008, 10:01 AM
Hans Reiser used Linux...

Think about it.

Can you at least wait until the man is convicted?

Perspective
04-03-2008, 10:12 AM
I think the last quote refers to that to that Linux isn't as compatible as Windows and it's usually more difficult to get things done, such as installing and using on Linux than on Windows.

Last time I checked windows runs on 2 CPU architectures (32 and 64 bit variants of the same arch actually) and linux runs on over 40. Compatability is in the eye of the beholder.

Elysia
04-03-2008, 10:14 AM
Compability with programs, hardware, drivers, etc. Windows runs 'em all, but Linux is sometimes left in a pinch.

Mario F.
04-03-2008, 10:19 AM
"Compatibility with programs" is left for the programmers to decide. It's not a trait of the operating system. In fact, it has been the Open Source project and similar movements born out of *nix die hards that allowed the widespread of porting philosophies that Microsoft always shunned.

As for drivers, I concede there. However, you'll have an hard time finding one that isn't developed yet these days and won't be available within the month.

abachler
04-03-2008, 10:21 AM
Compatability with X number of architectures is irrelevant to most users. Compatability with my existing software is what is important.

Perspective
04-03-2008, 10:21 AM
Compability with programs, hardware, drivers, etc. Windows runs 'em all, but Linux is sometimes left in a pinch.

Programs are OS dependent (or if written in an OS independent language, linux has no problem with them). Drivers are written for specific hardware, and my last posts illustrates that linux is compatible with an order of magnitude more CPU archs than windows, and thus is compatable with all of the drivers for those hardware architectures.

As I said before, it really depends on the point of view, if you want to count every keyboard and webcam that windows is compatible with, you might get a big number. But if you look at the big picture, linux can run in many more places with many more hardware devices than windows.

CornedBee
04-03-2008, 10:22 AM
Is this thread going anywhere the last one didn't?

abachler
04-03-2008, 10:23 AM
Is this thread going anywhere the last one didn't?

My magic 8 ball says - Doubtful...

Elysia
04-03-2008, 10:23 AM
Hey, I didn't write the signature, I was merely reporting what I perceived it as.

Mario F.
04-03-2008, 10:24 AM
Is this thread going anywhere the last one didn't?

Does it need to? Or you have something to say that will make it go somewhere?

abachler
04-03-2008, 10:27 AM
Hey, I didn't write the signature, I was merely reporting what I perceived it as.

Which signature woudl that be?

Elysia
04-03-2008, 10:28 AM
Manav's:

WinDoes MacOwes LinSucks

vart
04-03-2008, 10:29 AM
Last time I checked windows runs on 2 CPU architectures
You should recheck...
It is Pro version that is limited to 2 cores...
Data Center is able to work on 64 Core system

indigo0086
04-03-2008, 10:30 AM
Is this thread going anywhere the last one didn't?

There's a point in GD threads which come to a slow crawl. I wish I had an equation for such an event.

CornedBee
04-03-2008, 10:31 AM
You should recheck your semantic analysis.

Windows runs on x86 and amd64 -> 2 architectures. (Win NT up to version 4 ran on the Alpha, too. And isn't there a version for IA-64?)

vart
04-03-2008, 10:32 AM
You should recheck your semantic analysis.

Windows runs on x86 and amd64 -> 2 architectures. (Win NT up to version 4 ran on the Alpha, too. And isn't there a version for IA-64?)

Ok sorry for misreading it...

Mario F.
04-03-2008, 10:33 AM
Does may mean it does what its not told to.
Owes could also mean it owes much to the mac community
Sucks may also mean it sucks in the competition.

Dunno. I'm on that frame of mind

Neo1
04-03-2008, 10:34 AM
You should recheck your semantic analysis.

Windows runs on x86 and amd64 -> 2 architectures. (Win NT up to version 4 ran on the Alpha, too. And isn't there a version for IA-64?)

AMD64 is a superset of X86. IA64 is supported by Windows Server 2003....