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>>There is a difference between murder and killing.
And who decides the difference? Are you saying that our elected government recieves divine information? That they directly communicate with god? If the law says so then god says so? Where in the bible are we told about this?
>>You guys are too serious...
Aye! ... ... ;)
Hmm...Okay, a new definition. If it's justified, it isn't murder. But if any law defines the killing as murder, then it is murder, because the Bible also says that you should submit to authority.
One thing all civilizations have in common is an explaination as to how / why we are here (and an attempt to explain death).
Some civilizations were better, or more agressive in promoting their ideal.
I was brought up to believe, as a Methodist (follower of John Wesley).
In Nepal in the 80's I met a priest, the "crazy barba of Singapore" a pot smoking vegitarian who belived that cuttting an inch of his arm each year proved his faith. How strong must his faith was, stronger than mine it turned out. But if according to my faith he was going to hell for worshiping a false god.
Once I questioned, I understood. Religion is not about content it is about FAITH. Belief in what can not be proven.
No matter if you believe that the sun was created in a argument between an Emu and a Kangaroo (Aust Aborigine) or that Jesus went to New York and left copper tablets (7 day adventist) or Moses parted the Red sea ect, ect.
You have faith and act accordingly.
I have just bypased the faith bit and try to treat others as I want to be treated.
No organised religion is free from corruption these days. For example the Vatican is the largest owner of casinos in the world, and I have seen first hand the pain / dispair they bring.
Justify your beliefs any way you need to, just don't cut any important bits off.
One thing I always wondered.
If God created Adam and Eve. They had Cain and Able. Cain killed Able.
Who did Cain marry to produce the rest of us?
Are we all children of a muderer?
Call 1-888-537-2200 for a free copy of the Book of Mormon.
>>
>whatever you do just don't critisize the Bible.
Why ? Is it so fragile it shatters at the first thought of critisism ?
<<
I'm with nvoigt. Don't be so sensitive about it. Believe what you believe. Don't force others to believe what you beleive, or even make them tiptoe around what makes you sensitive religously.
About the adam and eve thing...I've always wondered if we were all imbred! ;)
On the cursing topic...I curse. I don't really see anything wrong with it. When I say .......... I don't mean "go have sex right now". f-you doesn't mean let's go do it...b*tch...It's not really right, but I have used it on occasion to show intense dislike of a girl...damn doesn't mean to send someone off to hell, or at least it doesn't when I say it...I say "Damn you" a lot but I always say it jokingly, and never meant it as "Go straight to hell".
Errm...on the point of everyone being slain and the ten commanments thing...I've enver liked that passage...I don't even pretend to comprehend his decision to do that and if it was right in God's eyes.
The bible has been changed, mistranslated, and slightly warped a bit over the years...don't take all of the passages at face value. Think about them. Mull them over in your head, come up with a meaning yourself.
I'm not one of those catholics who sweats under the heat of being asked questions about the faith they don't know the answer to. I just nonchelantly say "I have no clue." That's a valid defense. Am I supposed to know every nook and crannie of my belief? I doubt the Pope even does...
....and anyhow..."AYE!!!"...
I'll take the Adam and Eve one. They didn't JUST have Cain and Able. Yes, they probably had to procreate with their siblings (I guess it's a good thing they didn' have my sister back then *shudders to think...*). Cain eventually established what is now Egypt and probably the rest of Africa (no offense to anyone there - after all - I'm descended from a guy who killed the King of England...). There were others. I think it describes who they all are early in Genesis. Probably between 3 and 8. There are other records which we do not have yet. It mentions a lot in the bible, things like the book of Jashem, which we didn't have ten years ago, but I am... just as sec...... currently holding it in my hand here. There's more to come - plenty.
You could also visit mormon.org and learn ALL about us.
Okay, now that I am back...first I shall explain about the killing part.
When they were told to kill all those people, notice the part: "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel"
When the Lord commands something, it is justified. Simple as that.
Now for the next part, which might take a BIT longer explanation:
>>What happens when its done again? And again. And then interpeted... And people say that the bible is the exact words of God? How can they say that when its a fact that the current version isnt the same as the versions before it? If its changed it cant be the same!!! So either the old versions weren't the word of god or the new one isnt...
Okay...now...not all Christians will agree with my explanation...because we are not all the same sect. I am a Mormon, and this is the Mormon explanation. Please bear with me, read it, and ask whatever questions you want to ask me about it...
This is not the first time people have asked these questions. In 1820, a 14 year old boy, named Joseph Smith, in the midst of a revival in religion, was simply wondering which religion to join. His family members had all joined churches, and were very strong in their faiths, but all respected each others faith. Joseph could not figure out which faith to join, however, because they all argued against each other on certain points.
So Joseph read a simple scripture in the Bible, which we can all read. It is James 1:5-6,
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."
That is pretty simple. If you need to know something, ask of God with a real intent, and the answer will come to you. It may not come immediately, but it will come.
So Joseph decided to test this scripture. Make an experiment out of it if you want to call it that. He went out into the woods, where he could be alone and think, and he prayed to Heavenly Father asking Him which church was the true church.
The next thing that happens is what Athiests and others might find hardest to believe, but I firmly believe that it happened, and have a strong testimony that it did.
Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both appeared to Joseph in the woods, and told him that all the churches were wrong, and that:
"They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having the form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
Does this mean that all the other churches are TOTALLY wrong? No. It simply means that over the ages, through corrupt monks, preachers, etc., certain doctrines have been lost.
Several people tried to reform the Christian church throughout the medieval ages, but they failed...because it cannot be reformed once it is lost...it must be restored...
So it doesnt mean that all the other churches were evil. They simply did not have ALL the correct doctrine because it was lost over the years.
So Joseph was given the job of restoring the true church on the face of the Earth. Several times angels appeared to him and ministered to him, telling him of certain gospel concepts and doctrines that might have been losts, or needed to be cleared up. Finally Joseph was lead to the gold plates by an angel.
The gold plates are a record of the Native Americans, from the time they first arrived, up until 421 AD., and it contained the gospel in its fulness, since it was untainted by man over time. Joseph, with the Urim and Thummim, which are two stones used for the purpose of interpreting languages, translated the plates into what is now the Book of Mormon.
If you are questioning the existence of the Urim and Thummim, Aaron, Moses' brother, also had them several thousand years earlier. You can find references to them in the books of Moses (the first five books of the Bible).
Joseph, after finishing the translation of the plates, was told to go back to the Bible and with the help of the Lord, replace parts of it that were lost. So you are now saying, "So the Mormons dont use a real Bible? They use a Mormon Bible?"
No. We use the King James version of the Bible. We simply have a small index at the end, listing everything that Joseph Smith, with the help of the Lord, added and replaced that was lost from the Bible. You are probably saying, "How can you just make up stuff that was lost?" Well...simple...he had the help of the Lord...the Lord knew what was there...
That is my answer. Feel free to comment.
Yeah - that sounds right. No corrections here. I would also refer everyone to Isiah 29. It profesies the coming forth of another testament of Christ. That is what the Book of Mormon is. When Christ left The Jerusalem area we all here about once a year, he said that he had other flocks to visit. During his lifetime, the Gold Plates record many of the prophesied things ocurring. A new Star, a night that isn't dark. 34 years later, after he had been resurrected, he appeared in the Americas. If you want the full story, it is summarized in the first few pages of the Book of Mormon - right around the table of contents area.
Moroni 10:4-5 - the Book of Mormon.
I know that this is the truth. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and you can too. Just listen to this simple promise. Ask - there's an answer.Quote:
And when ye shall recieve these things I would exhort you that ye would ask God the Eternal Father in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intentm having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may the truth of all things.
Sorry it too so long to reply, but my life got in the way and I had to do some stuff :DQuote:
Originally posted by gnu-ehacks
There is a difference between murder and killing.
The men were killed because of the things they had done. It is like when a man commits a terrible crime, you kill him. When you murder someone, it is not within the bounds of the law, and it is totally against what the word of God says.
The 10 commandments say Thou shalt not MURDER, not thou shalt not kill.
Also, I haven't read through all the posts (I know tsk tsk) but its late (for me) and I need to be at work by 0630 so I should be in bed by now but I wanted to check back on this thread.
Anyway, back to the discussion at hand:
How can there be a difference if both acts (murder and killing) when they reach the same end result - the death of another by another's hand.
I see your point that it was justified killing because the were isrealites, yadda yadda yadda. It just seems to me that what the bible says is that as long as you kill in the lords name, you are justified. And this I disagree with.
So just because the isrealites were worshipping an idol, and this so offeneded Mo, he orders brother to pick up sword and slay brother, and it is justified becuase it is in the lords name. I don't think so, it just doesn't sit right with me. Its as if it's okay if a person spits another so long as the person spitting has blonde hair, if the person does not have blonde hair than the act may constitute assault (I know bad example, but I'm tired and can't think of much else :p ), again, it doesn't sit right with me.
That's all for now. Tomorrow, during one of my marathon breaks I'll come back and read through the responses again and see if I made any sense! :D
A bid of scriptrue humor:
You can Deuter on yourself, but don't you dare Deuteronomy!
(spelling may be a bit off)
Ken, what do you mean when you say these swear words? Is it still wholesome? Do other people know what you mean when you say the words?
Drakken.
You make good points here. Although, it is not always in the name of God that killing is not murdering...Take Osama Bin Laden. Would it be right to keep him alive, even if he is locked up in a prison cell for the rest of his life? It would be wrong NOT to kill him.
If nobody was in the military, to KILL enemies, and stop terrorism, how would this nation survive? Without killing, this would be a pretty terrible world. Now, if you are killing because God TRULY tells you to, which I doubt He will, then it is justified.
If you kill in the name of God, but God didn't truly tell you to kill, then it is wrong. A good example is the Christian Crusades. These were horrible injustices to Islam, and shoudl have never happened.
>>Take Osama Bin Laden
And here we would be reffering to the man who "believes" that he is killing heathen murderers at his gods will. Explain how he is different from anyone else then?
>>If nobody was in the military, to KILL enemies
Key word: nobody
If nobody was in the military and nobody killed enemies then there wouldnt be a need for them would there? I'm not saying this is in any way realistic, i'm just pointing out that we're all alike. The "other side" thinks the same things you do; That you are evil scum that deserve to die.
>>A good example is the Christian Crusades. These were horrible injustices to Islam, and shoudl have never happened.
And to be fair, its not fair for me (or others) to be constantly bringing them up as an argument against Christianity and their hypocracy. It happened a long time ago and its not like you had any part in it or believe in its ideals. I only bring it up to show the possabilities of things that could easily re-occure, and to demonstrate the failability of anyone, including (especially?) people of strong faith.
lightatdawn, I completely agree. If people would put asside their hate, then this world would be a lot better place, unfortunately that isn't the case. Also, with your Bin Laden statement, that is also very true. Although, even if us "infidels" are evil, we would still have the right to fight back...Am I right? It's self defense, which can be justified.
lightatdawn, I completely agree. If people would put asside their hate, then this world would be a lot better place, unfortunately that isn't the case. Also, with your Bin Laden statement, that is also very true. Although, even if us "infidels" are evil, we would still have the right to fight back...Am I right? It's self defense, which can be justified.
>>If people would put asside their hate, then this world would be a lot better place
Absolutly. I dont have to believe in a god to be a good person. I would consider myself to be a 'good person'. I may not always obey every law (*cough* understatement *cough*) but i do hold myself to my own moral code. I've done things legally wrong but i've never done anything morally wrong.
>>still have the right to fight back...Am I right?
Of course. We cant all be Ghandi. I for one would not sit about to die or while others where dying. Although i would be quick to defend myself and others I am also quick to point out that both sides have reasons. There is rarely a purely evil and purely good side to anything. As long as we understand that we're fighting people, no matter how twisted they may be, then we can stop ourselves from sinking to that level. Sometimes we have to do things to survive that aren't otherwise justifiable.
I apologise if my ideas appear to conflict sometimes. Perhaps i'm a Realistic Idealist. :)
>There is no god.
HA! I can prove otherwise.....
I believe in God of course, but I practice no formal religion. I think they tend to be controlling. I have yet to attend a church that was funded by God.
Your agruments are pretty one-sided. If God declares his will through a human being, all laws are unimportant. This is what you have been arguing about Moses and the slaying of the Israelites. Now, either this only comes to you as a special gift because you know who the real god is, or you aren't giving others the same rights and chances to do so.
"God told me to go and punish the heathens. Take up your weapons and kill them all."
This was said by
a) Moses
b) Osama bin Laden
You've got 10 seconds... *meep* sorry, your time is up. Both answers are right.
Your personal freedom, even the freedom of faith, ends right where it begins to hurt someone else.
Open your eyes. If your god's will is to follow him blindly and without asking, why did he create you with a brain inside ? The real strength is not blindly believing. The real strength in faith is to ask all the questions, even the ones that are repressed by many, and still come out a believer. This is true faith. Not chanting the same sermon time and again.
By born I'm a Muslim (Islam is the Religion) ..
but from my boyhood I was looking for Allah (God) ....
and still searching.. so.. Until I get any understandable evidence of his/her/it's existence.. I don’t think he is there…..
I voted for Atheist
Because the meaning of Atheism is
a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods. 2. Godlessness; immorality.
Wow...I'm surprised to know that I’m not alone, there are so many people around the world who believe religion was created as a means of control of weak minded individuals....
Note for moderator: Please don't close the thread.. after a long time got a chance to discuss about it.
>>Oh, by the way, please don't answer Tuxist....
Why not? Maby Tuxist/atheist would be better?
And 'cause I'm the first tuxist ever existed I have right to answer so... :D
I was thinking of calling myself as a the Tux-messiah!
LOL
>>There is no god. religion was created as a means of control of weak minded individuals....
That's my oppinion too...
Like I sayed in some other thread:
"Religion is for the weak ones."
Ofcourse I doesn't mean that you shouldn't believe in something. I think it's okay to believe in something if you don't start to "worship" some god or something...
Please submit your papers.. :)Quote:
Originally posted by mfc2themax
>There is no god.
HA! I can prove otherwise.....
It's hard to beleive in anything that is governed / preached by a population of people with a percentage of them being corrupt in some form or other.
I think an easier question would have been what government do you beleive in?
:::::::::(i think this makes me an athiest although i don't like to tar myself with anyones brush):::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
nvoigt
O to have your clearity of speech...
-------------
Osama is as positive about his beleifs as you are about yours...Im sure he could also quote and back them up just as strongly...if not stronger, as you. The same go's for many other religions. You must be lucky you werent born osama's son. Or even luckier you werent born to that cheif of the local african tribe...just being discovered, they now know about christ...but they still think king Idol is the real god, and that your crazy. By discovering them and telling them about christ we have condemned them to hell.
The meanest thing I could do is go back in time and start telling egyptians about the bible and god...Ill be damned if they will beleive me...but for everyone I tell..thats one more that satan gets:)
By the way...to become informed on religion, I dont reccommend the bible...read Good Omens (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman)
Its all the religion you can stand. A wonderful read:)
And it was good...
:)
>> I dont reccommend the bible... <<
Who are you to recommend?
> Who are you to recommend?
TG's recommendation's just as valid as yours, Garf... Sorry.
I didn't recommend anything, Govt. I was just stating, who is he to say that the Bible, which has been here for thousands of years, is not a good choice? None of us have the authority to say that...Quote:
Originally posted by Govtcheez
> Who are you to recommend?
TG's recommendation's just as valid as yours, Garf... Sorry.
Garfield
I meant you implicitly are recommending reading it.... Whatever - doesn't matter....
> None of us have the authority to say that...
Actually, yeah - if he rad it and doesn't agree, he's got just as much authority to recommend or not as anyone else could have.
>> Actually, yeah - if he rad it and doesn't agree, he's got just as much authority to recommend or not as anyone else could have. <<
Okay, I guess I agree. Now for the next question...
TrojanGekko, did you ever read the Bible?
Look, I'm not attacking anybody here and I'm not looking for enemies either. I'm just looking to prove my point. And I'm not going to back down.
Garfield
> And I'm not going to back down.
:sigh: Such is the problem with message board jihads. Nobody's going to change their opinion based on what a person they know nothing about for sure says. Beliefs are a very deep and rooted part of most people, and I know that it'll sure take a lot more than people typing to change mine.
>I'm just looking to prove my point. And I'm not going to back down.
Prove what point?
> Who are you to recommend?
>TG's recommendation's just as valid as yours, Garf... Sorry.
If youre atheist you have the authority to say that they are all good novels or story books.
That's the thing about religon, people tend to defend it too vigorously, & that's why i only believe in my kin they believe in me and i them.
i don't think i could put the same faith into something that someone wrote 1200 years ago, & a person i never knew.
Who's to say what thousands nay millions of people should think & set morals for them to live by.
another example (don't take offence christians ) even though i don't profess to know everything about religions, ijust know more about christianity than others, is this correct a theologian becomes a saint for adjusting the way people concieve the bible.
True or False?
>> Prove what point? <<
I should have said "religion" instead of "point". In that case, Christianity and everything that I believe in.
>Christianity and everything that I believe in.
Fair enough, but you're going to have to accept that some people think it's a load of old ****.
did you know athiesm can be classified as a religion?
and for the most part is?
>> Osama Bin Ladin
>
And here we would be reffering to the man who "believes" that he is killing heathen murderers at his gods will. Explain how he is different from anyone else then?
<
lightatdawn, he about as much believs ths a we do!!
religion can a dangerous an misusable thing in the wrong hands, it is just his tool of maintaing his power.
this does not mean all religon is.
> did you know athiesm can be classified as a religion?
Makes sense... the belief in nothing... the belief in something... what's the problem?
athiesm is the "Belief" that their is no god.
is a deep explainaton required?
they are hypocritical in saying religion is bad or wrong or misusable.
> religion can a dangerous an misusable thing in the wrong hands, it is just his tool of maintaing his power.
this does not mean all religon is.
So, what if it was in those hands from the beginning?
>athiesm is the "Belief" that their is no god.
>is a deep explainaton required?
No, I don't think so... I was just wondering why it's such a problem to have atheism classified as a religion.
>did you know athiesm can be classified as a religion?
Yes, but you can make up your own mind about things. I'm willing to be proved wrong.
govt, don't get into hypotheticals it will get us no where.
>Yes, but you can make up your own mind about things. I'm willing to be proved wrong.
so is anyone, but the fact is God can neither be proven nor disproven.
Why? Isn't that kinda where we always are? What'll happen if this? What coulda happened if that?
Is your faith really that blind that you're not willing to challenge it a little? I don't think you can have true faith without asking "why?"... Otherwise, you're not much more than a robot.
but such a hypothetical like you question "what if it was in the wrong hand in the begining" is not mere speculation and is less provable than wether God existis or not
>Is your faith really that blind that you're not willing to challenge it a little?
CHANGE!! thats exactly what leads TO OSAMA BIN LADIN!
a little here a little there!! and what have you?
>I don't think you can have true faith without asking "why?"... Otherwise, you're not much more than a robot.
of course not, i asked why. and the answer is there is no other choice.
if there is any part to be questioned or that needs change then something is definatly wrong.
>and the answer is there is no other choice.
and where did you get this answer from?
Um... I didn't say change, I said challenge.
> "what if it was in the wrong hand in the begining" is not mere speculation and is less provable than wether God existis or not
Yes, it is mere speculation. No, it's not less provable...
> of course not, i asked why. and the answer is there is no other choice.
If that's the answer you arrived at, good for you. Not everyone reached the same one you did.
it could take me hours to explain... but i'll try to simplify.
i looked at other religions(i am a Christian) and they almost all sprout from the "Devine Revelations" of a Man which in all is agreed on as an imperfect being, Christianity's Origin is Strictly Devine, and it doesn't change ever weekend, all the information in the bible is correct and know well before it should have been the morals are strict and don't get wishy washy here or there they are agreeing all the wa through. all the prophicies can be and most have been proven other tan the ones that havn't happened yet, most of the stories can be or have been proven, most other religions take from or follow from Christianity, take Roman Chatholics, or Islam, they came from Christian roots, it just makes sense, everything in it fits... there is so much more to it than this, but it would take days to explain.
and besides that, if you have ever truly believed in Christ there can be no doubt.
no-one - what do you mena when you say Christian? I notice you list Roman Catholics as a different group...
> it just makes sense, everything in it fits...
Boom! I'm converted! You've shown me the way! "It's right.... because it is!"... See DavidP's sig.
>
Boom! I'm converted! You've shown me the way! "It's right....
because it is!"... See DavidP's sig.
<
i dont get your meaning?
>no-one - what do you mena when you say Christian? I notice
you list Roman Catholics as a different group... <
Roman Catholics have a much different Bible than we, when i say Christian i mean they follow the unchanged Bible the Holy Bible
excuse me i see where that could cause a problem there are many different groups of Christianity :
Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Mormon, Quakers, ect...
though some of these such as the mormons and quakers consider themselves seperate.
sorry for the misunderstanding.
>i looked at other religions(i am a Christian) and they almost all sprout from the "Devine Revelations" of a Man which in all is agreed on as an imperfect being, Christianity's Origin is Strictly Devine
Which is fine (if you accept that Jesus was divine), but I think you'd have to have dubious critical facilities to claim -
>all the information in the bible is correct
For example, how can you know that any of the 'miricales' actually happened.
>all the prophicies can be and most have been proven
Yes, and my star sign was spot on today ;) .
>most other religions take from or follow from Christianity
which in turn follows from Judaism. Why aren't you Jewish?
> excuse me i see where that could cause a problem there are many different groups of Christianity
That's what I meant.
> i dont get your meaning?
DP's sig says (among other things): "Circular logic works because it does." You're explanation for why the Bible's right was because it is.
**** that, swearing ****ing rocks the **** out of not swearing. Not swearing is proof that you fear some ****ty made up bull**** by a load of monks who can't **** because they spend their ****ing entire ****ing lives ****ing writing stupid ****ing books about not ****ing swearing because, ****, it's just ****ing wrong. I don't believe in swearing because there are ****ing better words than ****, ****, and ****. There are ****ing ****-brilliant words like "idiot", "dickhead" and "tosser". ****, if I ever ****ing swore I'd probably be so ****ing ........ed off with my pathetic ****ing life, I'd slit my ****ing wrists although it's not as if I'd ****ing condem other people who ****ing swear, that's their own mother****ing piece of **** problem. They can ****ing go to hell for I care, if they are such careless ****heads that they swear endlessly like ****ing drones to stupid ****ing bands like limp mother****ing biskit who sing a load of ****ing **** that doesn't really ****ing make any mother****ing sense at all. Those bands are ****ing ****holes of damnation and anyone who ****ing listens to that ****ing filth is ****ing deserving of all the **** they get shoved up their ****hole.
Quote:
Originally posted by gnu-ehacks
Ken, what do you mean when you say these swear words? Is it still wholesome? Do other people know what you mean when you say the words?
Actually, they are more or less wholesome. I don't WHY I say damn so much, but it's grown more or less used as much as "at" or "on" or what-have-you. Everyone seems to know what I mean...and if they don't I can always explain. If I tell someone to f-off it's sort of like a strong "go away". On the contrast of what davidp says about curse words, I just think it's become adapted by society to show different things which weren't exactly the meaning way back when. So if you think about the words back in the 1950's I can see how it may be grotesque...but now it's just...slang :). I only really use it with friends, though. I might say damn a few times around my parents...I don't really keep track.
>Which is fine (if you accept that Jesus was divine)
i do.
>which in turn follows from Judaism. Why aren't you Jewish?
read the New Testament... it explains why.
>
For example, how can you know that any of the 'miricales' actually happened.
<
woah boy... here we go again with this.
>
DP's sig says (among other things): "Circular logic works because it does." You're explanation for why the Bible's right was because it is.
<
well yes and no.
yes, because in actuality and factually it is right.
no, because not all of the bible has been proven, not al of the prophicies have become true and because miracles cannot be proven, because Gods existence cannot be proven, this is where faith comes in.
>read the New Testament... it explains why.
I'm sure there are countless Jews that have read the New Testament. Why are they not all Christians?
The statements "factually it is right" and "miracles cannot be proven, because Gods existence cannot be proven, this is where faith comes in." in the same paragraph produce a syntax error.
>>"Religion is for the weak ones."
Really, I'd LOVE you to elaborate on that, because I have the sneaking suspiscion that your'e dead wrong...
>>For example, how can you know that any of the 'miricales' actually happened. <<
Well there's at least 2 which I can remember have been documented:
-Jesus rising into heaven. Supposedly hundreds of romans witnessed it. I'm sure you can find it in some non-biblical text or another.
-The miracle at Fatima. Look it up, I really like that one :)
Oh, and I believe there was one such thing where a nun or something struck water outside of a church, and it turned out to be a spring of holy water, able to heal...something like that.
>>I'm sure there are countless Jews that have read the New Testament. Why are they not all Christians? <<
Why spontaneously change from a religion you were brought up on to a brand new one because of the new testament...? They've read, believe in, etc.etc. the torah and stuff all their lives...and now they're going to change based on a few passages in the new testament...? I doubt it. But hey, for all you know they DID convert.
>I'm sure there are countless Jews that have read the New
Testament. Why are they not all Christians? <
in truth i cannot say you'd have to ask them,
but heres what i hear,
they don't believe it because Christ came back to save us all and not just them as they believed he would and that they disreguard him as a mere prophet and are still waiting for the "real" Jesus to come, and jews won't believe it simple because they are jews and jews just don't do that.
>
The statements "factually it is right" and "miracles cannot be proven, because Gods existence cannot be proven, this is where faith comes in." in the same paragraph produce a syntax error.
<
not at all, the factual parts are the provable part such as the prophices the stories the events everything else as such.
>Please submit your papers.. <
How can you create something, from nothing. If there is NO god. That means everything, was created from nothing, which is impossible.
So, that "something" that created everything, or caused or set the chain events for everything to be made, is God.
(argh, to many 'ings in there.)
But where did God come from?
>But where did God come from?<
Ahhh yes, but God is not physical.... so the idea that God had to be "created" is not applicable. Everything else is physical matter, it had to be created somehow.... and physical matter, can't be created from nothing...
Considering the fact that there is no such thing as time, factor that into the whole picture, and think about it for a few hours.
>and think about it for a few hours.<
ya i know, don't point out the fact that a few hours is time... time is something made up by humans, and is only based on the fact that the earth goes around the sun......
>-Jesus rising into heaven.
Where's heaven? The sky?
> Supposedly hundreds of romans witnessed it. I'm sure you can find it in some non-biblical text or another.
Supposing all this was factually reported and not altered at all throughout the centuries, they had alot of bad bread in those times (fungus) which is often provided as a counter argument against religious visions. It seems if you go back far enough that nearly every man and his dog was having visions and then they stopped.
>The miracle at Fatima. Look it up, I really like that one
I vaguely remember that from my school days. Does alot of witnesses to a moving sun (or what they saw as a moving sun), prove in any way that Jesus is Divine? There are accounts of thousands of people supposedly witnessing the Ancient Olympic Gods. There were thousands of Hindus who supposedly witnessed one of their status drinking milk. People of all religions 'see' these miracles. Does this mean that they are all correct?
>Why spontaneously change from a religion you were brought up on to a brand new one because of the new testament...?
So only the ones that have been brought up on the New Testament are able to see the truth then ;) .
>They've read, believe in, etc.etc. the torah and stuff all their lives...and now they're going to change based on a few passages in the new testament...?
That's it. People who put their faith in religions find reasons to justify their own beliefs more often than not based in the enviroment they're brought up in. I'm sure a muslim could point to supposed miracles that support their faith in Allah, and the same for Hindu's, etc. Everyone of them believing that they have the one true faith. To paraphrase something I read somewhere - I don't believe in your God for the same reason you don't believe in any of the others.
Interesting historical fact... yes i said fact.
How was it decided that Jesus was the son of god? 400 years after his death, there's some sort of meeting held, by a king, and everyone in the room was asked if they thought Jesus was the son of god, the majority just happened to raise their hands....
(can't remember where it was held, or by who, but i have the info, I’ll get it together and post it up later)
doesn't sound like very solid way to figure out something that important, does it?
What really irritates me is the fact that so many Christians fail to question the validity of their own religion. I may be Muslim, but all my life, I’ve spent time researching other religions, and beliefs, looking for what makes the most logical sense.
I mean there are people who believe the world is 5,000 years old! Come on, that’s absolutely ridiculous, people take religion with absolute blind faith, and never logically look at things, its really dumb. Many Christians are raised to believe that if they do question there own religon, then they will end up going to hell, because they have doubt about their faith....
If my faith, made no logical sense, why would i stay with it?
First, its time for some of my favorite religion based quotes:
"If god doesn't like the way I live, let him tell me, not you." - anon.
"Organized religion: The world's largest pyramid scheme."- Bernard Katz
"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad." -Nietzsche, lets face it between the inquisition and the crusades, Christianity has killed alot of people
"Religion...is the opium of the masses." -Karl Marx, it hurts to agree with Marx, but you have to give the devil his due(ignore the pun).
"religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few." -Stendhal
"Which is it, is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's?" -Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
"I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time." -Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
"A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes." -Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
and my personal favorite on the list:
"This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness."
-Dalai Lama
Personally I voted other, Is there a god, maybe, maybe not. Is there an after life, could be, I hope so, because it just gets confusing trying to rationalize death in your head. However the christian idea that i have to go to church to experiance god, and that i have to confess my sins and all that is pure BS.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
-Bjarne Stroustrup
> it hurts to agree with Marx, but you have to give the devil his due(ignore the pun).
Why?
>Where's heaven? The sky?
maybe its not on the physical plane, so therefore i doubt you could find it.
and so Darlen, you believe on mas word over another?
>
"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad." -Nietzsche, lets face it between the inquisition and the crusades, Christianity has killed alot of people
<
neither are a result of Christianity,
both are a result of the ambition of men using religion as a scapegoat.
>
However the christian idea that i have to go to church to experiance god, and that i have to confess my sins and all that is pure BS.
<
Do not judge all Christendom by the Roman Catholics , there are many "sects"
>>However the christian idea that i have to go to church to experiance god, and that i have to confess my sins and all that is pure BS. <<
>>Do not judge all Christendom by the Roman Catholics , there are many "sects"<<
I am Catholic, but I don't believe you have to go to church like some sort of crazed....crazy person...sorry, couldn't think of anything to say there...:)
>>Where's heaven? The sky?
As was said, it's not a physical plane...
>>Supposing all this was factually reported and not altered at all throughout the centuries, they had alot of bad bread in those times (fungus) which is often provided as a counter argument against religious visions. It seems if you go back far enough that nearly every man and his dog was having visions and then they stopped. <<
Good for them, but when hundreds of people witness the same exact thing, you may have something real on your hands :rolleyes:...Hallucegenic foods is probably the worst excuse for religious visions I have ever heard an athiest use...
>>I vaguely remember that from my school days. Does alot of witnesses to a moving sun (or what they saw as a moving sun), prove in any way that Jesus is Divine? There are accounts of thousands of people supposedly witnessing the Ancient Olympic Gods. There were thousands of Hindus who supposedly witnessed one of their status drinking milk. People of all religions 'see' these miracles. Does this mean that they are all correct?<<
...did I ever SAY it proved Jesus divine? You're just sort of putting words in my mouth, there...but yes, in a way it does. See, they witnessed more than just the moving of the sun...if I remember correctly these kids kept having visions of the Virgin Mary, and one day they gathered th whole town for a miracle she had told them she would preform to convince the town...If I remember correctly she revealed herself to the townsfolk and made the sun dance across the sky. That's gotta mean something :)
>>So only the ones that have been brought up on the New Testament are able to see the truth then <<
No, I never said that. I'm just saying that people are so into whatever religion that they've been brought up on, they jsut can't let it go...and I don't like how you used that as an argument against religion, when really it's the people's closed-mindedness that causes them not to give the other religion a chance.
Got this in one of my groups and I couldn't help but post it here:
And God populated the earth with broccoli and cauliflower and spinach,
green and yellow vegetable of all kinds, so Man and Woman would live long
and healthy lives.
And Satan created McDonald's. And McDonald's brought forth the 99-cent
double-cheeseburger. And Satan said to Man, "You want fries with that?"
And Man said, "Super size them." And Man gained pounds.
And God created the healthful yogurt, that woman might keep her figure that
man found so fair.
And Satan brought forth chocolate. And woman gained pounds.
And God said, "Try my crispy fresh salad."
And Satan brought forth ice cream. And woman gained pounds.
And God said, "I have sent your heart healthy vegetables and olive oil with
which to cook them."
And Satan brought forth chicken-fried steak so big it needed its own
platter.
And Man gained pounds and his bad cholesterol went through the roof.
And God brought forth running shoes and Man resolved to lose those extra
pounds.
And Satan brought forth cable TV with remote control so Man would not have
to toil to change channels between ESPN and ESPN2.
And Man gained pounds.
And God said, "You're running up the score, Devil."
And God brought forth the potato, a vegetable naturally low in fat and
brimming with nutrition.
And Satan peeled off the healthful skin and sliced the starchy center into
chips and deep-fat fried them. And he created sour cream dip also.
And Man clutched his remote control and ate the potato chips swaddled in
cholesterol.
And Satan saw and said, "It is good."
And Man went into cardiac arrest.
And God sighed and created quadruple bypass surgery.
And Satan created HMOs.
:D
lol! Drakken, i'll be saving that one. :D
>>Ahhh yes, but God is not physical.... so the idea that God had to be "created" is not applicable.
Uhh... What? The idea that only physical things need be created is also not a very sound one.
>>"Which is it, is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's?" -Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
"I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time." -Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
<<
Oh good! Nietzsche! He created the idea of a "superman" who should crush all the weaklings of society. Where do you think Hitler got that idea?
You may as well have quoted a Satanist...
At the beggining...i was skeptical...confused...I didnt know what to think. You might say I was lost. But garf and company have shown me the light...religion was greated to control weak minded individuals.
I posted that a little while ago...an accusation without proof is just that...Quote:
>>"Religion is for the weak ones."
Really, I'd LOVE you to elaborate on that, because I have the sneaking suspiscion that your'e dead wrong...
As far as you know we believe you a weakling among weaklings in the brains department for not having the strength to take the leap of faith.
I happen to believe that most athiests are just scared that if they actually believe in something and get their noses out of a physics book they'll be seen as weak, so they go on living their lives by scientific principals and the like...Don't get me wrong. I like science. I actually love my current science teacher because she joyfully points out where science provides proof to various religous things.
But really, I think that if you opened your mind and your eye to religion you'd understand clearer all that's been said here, instead of glowering and grunting "religion is for the weak".
Tell me, atheists, what do you believe happens when you die? Nothing, right? Darkness? Boredom? What one might call, "end". Are you afraid to die because fear of...nothing? I'm not at all afraid to die. Because I know that it will only be the beginning! The beginning of a new life eternally with God. Full of happiness and bliss.
Hmmm..."nothing", or a happy and eternal life with Jesus and God. I think I know which one I'm going to choose. I hope you choose the same, too...
Garfield
>> But garf and company have shown me the light...religion was greated to control weak minded individuals. <<
Why do you keep saying this? You are trying to prove something to yourself. Because it doesn't affect me at the least bit. You see, my friend, you are the weak one!
Uh oh. This is beggining to degenerate. If left unchecked this would be the point where this thread loses it. And this has been one of the most constructive, least abusive, threads on this subject i've seen yet.
>>Are you afraid to die because fear of...nothing? I'm not at all afraid to die.
Same here. Why would one be afraid of nothing? By definition there's nothing to be afraid of... :)
>>Hmmm..."nothing", or a happy and eternal life with Jesus and God. I think I know which one I'm going to choose.
Were i suddenly confronted with this choice i would choose the former. I'd like to think that mt time here is at least a little meaningful. It makes time worth spending and life worth living if you've only got so much of it to spare. If i've got an unlimited amount of it, why do i care what i do with it?
But to reitterate my earlier point: I'm not trying to anger or convince anyone here of anything. I just enjoy the disccusion. Its constructive. We're all learning how other people think.
>religion was greated to control weak minded individuals.
you DONT EVEN PAY ATTENTION!
i quote(me)
Quote:
did you know athiesm can be classified as a religion?
>religion was greated to control weak minded individuals.
I have to say i dont 100% agree with this. More like 60%. It appears (at least to me, and from my own possibly biased view of events) that religion was created as a means to easily lend a semblance of order, and thus control, over a widespread population. I'd have to argue the weak minded point. Granted, i know more weaker minded types who are devout church goers (consider that i dont say 'deeply religious types' because i am being specific about the church part) than those that do not. However i do know some very strong minds that do. There is something about the faithful church going crowd that i see as slightly different from the faithful worshipper crowd. The aformentioned first crowd does tend to attract a more... lets say... insecure... person IMHO.
I've been to churches before so i'm not just making things up here. I even attended a Bible camp twice (they had sweeeeet paintball games, ok?), so its not like i'm talking through the hole in my head. I dont activly participate in discussions of which the content is foreign to me. I dont much like relying solely on other peoples experiences to back up my opinions. I like the first-hand variety. I'm not saying this makes me right i'm just pointing out that i'm only throwing out things here that i've seriously considered and not just stuff i'm saying in reaction.
>Uhh... What? The idea that only physical things need be created is also not a very sound one.
Uhhh... why?