Thread: Religion

The thing I most dislike about religion is people who tell me that it is the TRUTH.
It may be the truth for them but I find no truth without facts. Nothing in the bible, koran or cave paintings proves it is fact.

You believe in it because you want to, you have faith. Nothing more, you have no more absolute proof that a god created the universe than I do that it was created in a argument between an Emu and a Kangaroo (as the Australian Aborigines do).

>>Tell me, atheists, what do you believe happens when you die? Nothing, right? Darkness? Boredom? What one might call, "end". Are you afraid to die because fear of...nothing? I'm not at all afraid to die. Because I know that it will only be the beginning!

In my opinion that means you are afraid of death. You need something to make death more palateable. I accept death, I know it will come and I will be gone, the way it must be. There will be nothing more, this is all you get.

Make the most of it while you can.

PS (on the hallucigenic food bit) It is documented that the Salem witch burnings were due to an unusually wet summer that caused an outbreak of Wheat Rust Fungii. This fungii produces a toxin almost identical to LSD and although it reduces quality bread can still be made from the flour. (that and how to make a giant mouse with growth hormones are all I care to remember from my uni MicroBiol/MolecBiol/Biochem)

Now imagine if you were slipped a tab of LSD and did not know, you might burn someone too.

Originally posted by Sorensen
>-Jesus rising into heaven.

Where's heaven? The sky?

> Supposedly hundreds of romans witnessed it. I'm sure you can find it in some non-biblical text or another.

Supposing all this was factually reported and not altered at all throughout the centuries, they had alot of bad bread in those times (fungus) which is often provided as a counter argument against religious visions. It seems if you go back far enough that nearly every man and his dog was having visions and then they stopped.

>The miracle at Fatima. Look it up, I really like that one

I vaguely remember that from my school days. Does alot of witnesses to a moving sun (or what they saw as a moving sun), prove in any way that Jesus is Divine? There are accounts of thousands of people supposedly witnessing the Ancient Olympic Gods. There were thousands of Hindus who supposedly witnessed one of their status drinking milk. People of all religions 'see' these miracles. Does this mean that they are all correct?


>Why spontaneously change from a religion you were brought up on to a brand new one because of the new testament...?

So only the ones that have been brought up on the New Testament are able to see the truth then .

>They've read, believe in, etc.etc. the torah and stuff all their lives...and now they're going to change based on a few passages in the new testament...?

That's it. People who put their faith in religions find reasons to justify their own beliefs more often than not based in the enviroment they're brought up in. I'm sure a muslim could point to supposed miracles that support their faith in Allah, and the same for Hindu's, etc. Everyone of them believing that they have the one true faith. To paraphrase something I read somewhere - I don't believe in your God for the same reason you don't believe in any of the others.

Aww, I missed all of this today?? Stupid School...

Sorenson, regarding your comments about the witnesses of Jesus's ascension. If this were true, then how could so many testimonies match? Also, wouldn't this happen with other things of that time, and not just the ascension of Jesus? If we believed this, for all we know, Julias Caesar, Alexander the Great, even ROME might have never existed, and it might have just been "Bad Bread"...

BTW, bread was probably healthier back then, because it was not processed and it was home cooked. Trust me, they did not have unhealthy bread unless they stored it for a few years.

Oh, and by the way, there are MANY Jews that have been converted to Christianity, as there are Muslims, Bhuddists, and Hindus.

Oh, and has anyone ever read any of the "Jesus Freak" books? This is kind of off the topic, but I thought that they were some inspiring books. Oh well, read it, anybody who loves God, it's inspiring.

Bread was healthyier because it was home cooked and not preserved..hahahaahaha. Thanks for that one. And mushrooms and pot are good for you cause they are all natural. Haha.

We have physical evidence of rome and alexander and what not. Conveintly\, all your real evidence has 'dryed' up.

Maybe I'm wrong about the bread thing, but there is evidence of Jesus. Have you researched this topic at all??? Even most athiests and evolutionists believe that Jesus exists, the real issue is the divinity of Jesus.

Originally posted by no-one
did you know athiesm can be classified as a religion?

yeah.. like NULL.. VOID..
or BLACKHOLE.. (bad example..)

If there is one thing ill agree on, its that a man named jesus most likely existed, and most likley played a large religious role.

My favorite thing about religion has got to be islam. Where mohammad is ordered from god to have his people pray like 50,000 times a day...then mohhamed leaves and mosses is like.."hey man, that be a lot of praying..go back and get HIM to cut y'all some slack", so mohammad goes back and asks god for less...and gods like..ok. And then mosses is like.."mohamed you foo...your makin your peple work there asses off...get back there and ask for less"...and this was repeated till they got down to like what? 5. I love that. Moses was a man after my own heart.

Gekko...Do you study anything? LoL

Mohammed lived in around 500-600 A.D. Moses lived thousands of years before...

Okay.. let’s talk about it.. I was reading and reading all the board replies. it’s very much sensitive in Bangladesh or countries where religious people or activists are weak on it…

1. Long time ago I heard two pair words: Religious-Hypocrite & Non Religions-Hypocrite.
2. One thing I found in last 27 years is that truth is beyond the question of belief.
Such as (examples are in a broad sense):
Situation A. I'm standing right in front of you; you need not to believe it, do you? You are seeing me, this is true.

Situation B. I'm standing behind the wall, you are not sure.. You are confused.. But you have some sort of evidence ... now you may or may not believe.

So.. where there is a chance of not being true.. you have a choice to (will) believe.
I smelt the word believe as dark, suspicion, confusion, lie.. Truth is even much brighter than sunshine.


Occam's Razor approach: Consider the choices and select the one that is the simplest, because simple explanation is almost always the best.

Note on Holy Books: I do believe (because I'm in dark or confused, not sure) the guys (not girls ) who wrote the books were the most brilliant of that times. But because of the evolution or ... in this 21st century, I guess there are lots of brilliants around the world to understand their ideology to make people discipline (for peaceful life). I think they did that because wanted to guide people for a peaceful life. Their motivation was positive (though they created imaginary Superman, which was a lie).

(May be I will update this post soon)
Check the reply

READ THIS POST. IT WILL ANSWER MANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS

okay...dang...i have been off the computer for 1 day and this thread has boomed by almost 100 posts...

Its time to go to sleep, so I dont have much time, but before I go, I would like to have my say in some things, correct some things, answer some things, etc...so here I go:

>but you can make up your own mind about things. (referring to Athiesm by Govt)

ever heard of free agency? its an interesting concept....you should read about it....i will explain more about it tomorrow...after school....

>But where did God come from?

>If "god" has existed forever, then explain why the physical universe cant have existed forever as well?

Both of these can be answered by answering the next question down:

>God is not physical....

Yes he is.

Over my skimming of the last several pages, I have seen this has been one of the hottest topics of debate while have been gone for a day. So I would like to address it. It is a very simple concept.

My answer to this will be two fold, so read it all.

The first part will explain HOW God is physical, and evidence of it. The second part will explain HOW God could have existed forever if he is physical, etc.

Part 1:

Lets turn to some passages in the Bible, shall we?

The first one I would like you to turn to is Acts 7:55-56,

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Plain and simple. All three SEPERATE MEMBERS of the Godhead (aka the Trinity) are there: the Holy Ghost, Heavenly Father, and Jesus Christ. It clearly states that they (except the Holy Ghost, who is a spirit) are physical. He (being Stephen) clearly saw both Jesus and Heavenly Father. You might argue that Jesus and Heavenly Father are one being, read this: John 17:20-23,

"Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou has loved me."

All throughout that scripture, Jesus talks of us being one AS he is one with the Father? What does that mean? It means one IN PURPOSE. Jesus and the Father are not one in entity, but they are one in purpose. Jesus wants us to be one just as they are one. The church should be united. That is what it is all about when they talk about being one. They do not mean one entity. They mean united in purpose.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48).

Next, we know that the Father is perfect, right? We also know that Jesus was not perfected until he ascended to the Father, right? That means that Jesus HAD to be resurrected before he could be made perfect. Therefore to be perfect Jesus had to have a body. Therefore, since the Father is perfect, he must have a body.

The resurrected body is not like our physical body, however. It is the same in shape and form, but it is perfect. With a resurrected body, you cannot be wounded or hurt. It is a perfect body.

Several times in the scriptures it talks about the Father being a spirit. You might be turning to those scriptures right now to try and prove me wrong. Well, we are spirits too, right? You can be a spirit and have a body too. Look at all of us. We all have bodys and all have spirits. Same with the Father, and the Son.

I could go on and recite more scriptures and a lot more evidence that Heavenly Father is a real and physical being with his own body, and if you want me to, tell me, but I think I have written enough about that, and so I will go on to say exactly HOW God could exist forever and be physical.

Heavenly Father has something called the Plan of Salvation.

I have already explained much of it in earlier posts, as I talked about the Kingdoms of Heaven, Hell, etc. However, I did not mention our premortal existence. In Job it says that God knew us before we came into the womb. That is one of the most evident scriptures in the Bible of the preexistence. It also talks about the preexistence in Revelations, and the war in heaven.

In the beginning we were all intelligences. Then, we were born to our Heavenly Father (and Heavenly Mother...yes we have a Heavenly Mother...she is rarely mentioned...but she is there, I will talk more about this in another post) as spirit children.

Then our Heavenly Father decided that he wanted us to have bodies so we could progress to become like him.

This is important: Just like we can progress in this world, grow up, and become like our parents, we can progress and become like our Heavenly Father. If we make it to the Celestial Kingdom of Heaven, the highest degree (refer back to my posts about the kingdoms of heaven. Also look at 1st Corinthians 15), we become like Heavenly Father himself.

We ARE LITERALLY his sons. Not just in some symbolic sense. We are LITERALLY our Heavenly Fathers sons. You might mock and say, how could be sons of God the Father? Its not that hard. God works in natural ways quite a lot of the time. Just like we have real parents here on Earth, he is our real parent there. We are literally his children, and can therefore progress to become like him.

Therefore if we make it to the Celestial Kingdom we become Gods ourselves. So how does this relate to our own Heavenly Father? Well...he went through the same thing we are going through now. He had his own Heavenly Father. He went through his own Father's plan of salvation. He had his own life. He made it all the way and he wants us to make it all the way too. Because he loves us and cares for us. If we are willing and do all we can, he will help us out as much as is possible. He literally became a God through his own Father's plan of Salvation. Just think about it....it makes sense doesnt it? Does the gospel have to be confusing? No. Does it have to be some mystic thing that nobody understands? No. It is plain and simple. It is not hard to understand. God is a physical being. He loves us all and cares for us. I know this to be true.

I know that the gospel of Christ is true. I know we CAN repent of our sins and return to live with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, our redeemer and saviour. We must do our part though, and then our Father will do his. I know the Bible and the Book of Mormon to be the true word of God. Follow the teachings in them and you cannot go wrong. Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. I know my redeemer, Jesus Christ, lives. He made a great sacrifice for me and for all of us.

I say these things, in the name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Christ, Amen.

Hey read the rest of the new testament, and read it thoroughly, it clearly states that

1) the trinity is of one person mind and spirit
ei. think of it this way, God the father, is the head, the Holy spirit, the heart, and jesus the body. different parts yet of the same.
2) Jesus, was perfect while a man
he never sinned nor did he have to be resurected to become perfect, he was resurected because he was perfect.
if you read genisis, the only reason why death has power over us is because we are with sin, if one is without sin then death has no hold on him( note: I did no say he couldn't die), death is a punishment of sin.

I'm tired I'm going to bed, I'll give you some scripture references tomarrow.

oh for more reference on the first statement, read exodus, where moses sees the burning bush . . . you now the whole I AM who I AM statement, then read john 10

>Lets turn to some passages in the Bible, shall we? <

Oh man, lets not bring non-factual information into the discussion. Okay?

>I'm not saying that its a fact, i'm just demonstrating that this particular argument is ineffective.<

So the entire physical world, came out of thin air?

>>So the entire physical world, came out of thin air?

No, thats not what i'm saying. I apologise if i wasn't clear. I'm just saying that if its possible for a god to have always existed (i.e. Never Been Created) then it is possible for other things to have that same attribute. Meaning that if you use the argument that god has always existed to 'prove' he does, it can also be used to prove that he doesnt. Lets look at this step by step:

A)
1 - Assume god has always existed
2 - If god has always existed then it is possibe that physical matter has always existed.
3 - If physical matter has always existed, there is no need for a god to have created it.

B)
1 - Assume god was created at some point in time
2 - Who created god?


I'm just saying that its not a valid reason. If you say that god has always existed then you are arguing aginst an earlier point; That there must be a god for there to be a universe. Is that any clearer?