Thread: Too many people programming

  1. #16
    Hurry Slowly vart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Rishon LeZion, Israel
    yes there are unfortunatly
    All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection,
    except for the problem of too many layers of indirection.
    – David J. Wheeler

  2. #17
    Insane Game Developer Nodtveidt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Isabela, PR
    There are always tons of jobs for VB coders, especially in the freelance market. The only problem seems to be that the easier the language is to learn, the more slackers you have and the fewer experts you have. The signal to noise ratio in VB coding is pretty high on the side of noise, which is unfortunate because it's not a bad language at serves its purpose well in the hands of someone skilled enough to use it correctly.

  3. #18
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Out of scope
    I'd also have to disagree that learning everything about VB is any easier than learning everything about C or C++. They both have their tricks and they can both be very easy to learn with a proper programming background. Just because you can jump into VB and make a nice GUI calculator that would take days in C++ doesn't mean it's easier. It just means it's more suitable for making quick GUI applications.
    Sent from my iPad®

  4. #19
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator
    Let's say VB. Someone learns it. What is he going to do with that knowledge? Are there any jobs for VB programmers? And if there are, what is the possibility of getting that job if everyone can learn VB in 5 minutes?
    No one can learn VB in 5 minutes.
    I could start a debate in here about your perception of VB... again(!!), But I won't. Not trying to be insulting (as you where the previous post to the one being quoted, knowing a considerable chunk of my professional life was spent developing in VB), but I'm not going to talk with a 14 year old kid about the professional aspects of programming. Sorry.

    However, one thing I feel should be said. Visual Basic was one of the major players in introducing all the noise in programming and making wannabe programmers that never gone past being... wannabe programmers. Developing a working application that delivers what the customer wants was at the grasp of small-time software companies and badly prepared programmers. And so it was, a considerable part of the software being developed during 10 years was in Visual Basic. It was like building planes out of aluminium. It flew alright... but it was not very safe.

    But useless? No. It made a lot of people rich. It gave a lot of jobs, and it served, and still is, many customer needs.

    Anyways back to matter at hand...
    I don't think the answer lies in educating programmers alone. The pressure is on the other side; Fast and cheap delivery of solutions. Companies won't be willing to invest in training if the numbers don't show the need.

    What is probably needed is the clear introduction into the market of the perception that software quality is not only a good interface, good performance and reliability. It is also scalability and maintainability. The first 3 are achieved easily and are what one sees. It's the last two that complicate the development process.

    If that one day happens (I don't have any faith it will) then programmers will be naturally selected on their abilities, they will naturally try to improve them, universities will naturally try to better prepare them and the business players will naturally assume the costs of development.
    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #20
    Crazy Fool Perspective's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom
    Customers dictate deadlines by maintaining interest and nessesity. In order to keep your customers, you have to make deadlines suitable to what they expect, otherwise you lose them. Just because they don't directly say they want it by the end of the year doesn't mean that by the end of the year they'll start looking for business elsewhere. This is what marketing has to deal with and this is how deadlines are made.

    MS went what, like seven years without an update to IE, and almost that long without a new version of windows either. Customers only dictate deadlines if your building custom software or your a small start up company. Everything comes from marketing and executives great ideas of how to be competitive (which generally changes from day-to-day). I agree that customers are what drives the business, but the people making the deadlines are trying too hard to please the customer, not realizing the effect on quality.

  6. #21
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Quote Originally Posted by Perspective
    MS went what, like seven years without an update to IE, and almost that long without a new version of windows either. Customers only dictate deadlines if your building custom software or your a small start up company.
    In a sense, the customers did dictate a deadline for IE: they didn't care (or at least so it seemed), so there was none.
    Windows is a special case, holding a de-facto monopoly on the end user market.

    But your general point is right: the customers have much more power if the applications are developed specifically for them, instead of the broad mass of consumers in general.
    All the buzzt!

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

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