Thread: Asta-la-vista Babey...

Originally posted by axon
whatever you may think of our President is your bussines but he is STILL your president! and he is leading your country, - there should be a certain respect there.

I would certainly have more respect for the current president if he didn't do so many things that will have a negative impact on the future of the United States and of the world as a whole: unilateral withdrawal from important international treaties (e.g., Kyoto Protocol), disdain for the United Nations and diplomacy in general, the invasion of Iraq, inappropriate tax cuts, attempts to repeal minimum wage laws by his Republican Party, attempts to concentrate power in the executive branch (e.g., the Patriot Act) , etc. ad infinitum.

No government is sacred. It should be seen as the expression of the people's will, not an end in itself. And why shouldn't a British citizen have the right to criticize the government of the United States? The United States acts internationally and has, thus, opened itself to international criticism.

And I have found it incredibly difficult to be proud to be an American since September 11, 2001. I am embarrassed by what our government has done in our names. Actually, I see the whole patriotism thing for what it really is now: a way to silence constructive criticism and to prevent people from finding out about all the horrible governmental-corporate collusion and general corruption that occurs in our government.

Originally posted by Clyde
You're an idiot.

Firstly, I have not insulted anyone, and I don't know why you insulted me. Give me arguments that support your opinion instead of calling me an idiot. After that phrase your later arguments are seemed in a much dimmer light. How do you want to persuade anyone by starting your text by insulting them. You should think this over for the future.

Musolini, Hitler, Hussein, Pinochet are a few of the more obvious examples.

If you are comparring Bush to any of the above mantioned than there is something wrong with your reasoning my friend. And if you really think that Bush is at the same level as any of the above, than we have nothing to talk about.

we shouldn't be proud of our own nationality just because it's "our" nationality, we didn't even control which nationality we ended up in.

Actually a lot of Americans did have the control to which country they pledge their citizenship. Secondly if one despises ones one country, one can simply go to the country they feel good in. America is one of those places that millions upon millions of people would do anything to spend their lives in. That is one of the reasons why I am proud to be an American.

unregdregd: your arguments are quite plausable. Yet you could find "horrible governmental-corporate collusion and general corruption" in each and every government throughout history. The US is no different in that aspect by a long shot.

I am embarrassed by what our government has done in our names

what would you rather be done after 9/11? would you let this pass as a simple slap on the wrist as Clinton did when the suicide boat has killed almost 20 American navy men in Yemen? Yes, Alqueda has "exposed" the fact that America is indeed valnurable, and if our government did not retaliate who knows what would have happened next.

I do agree with you about the wrongness of the Patriot Act. I don't agree with losing any of my freedoms because of anything that happened. I oppose almost everything within the Patriot Act.

I would love to write some more, but I need to get to class. Talk to you later,

axon

H&R since you've never heard of Rush, I suggest you should keep any comments to your self before you find out much more about him. It is curious that if he is "such a bad guy" that he has the most popular show in America!!!!

Firstly, I have not insulted anyone, and I don't know why you insulted me.

What you said irritated me, but i suppose i should have been more diplomatic so uh sorry.

Give me arguments that support your opinion instead of calling me an idiot

I did give you arguments, ones i notice that you have still failed to address.

How do you want to persuade anyone by starting your text by insulting them. You should think this over for the future.

Perhaps, but you see my friend i have come to the conclusion that it is practically impossible to convince people who are nationalistic in the manner you seemed to be displaying of the errors in their stance. Thus the aim becomes not to convince them but to demonstrate the nonsense of their stance so that others who are more borderline see it for what it is: tosh.

If you are comparring Bush to any of the above mantioned than there is something wrong with your reasoning my friend. And if you really think that Bush is at the same level as any of the above, than we have nothing to talk about

Axon you have failed to grasped the reasoning, i was not comparing Bush to any of them i was merely pointing out the error in your statement.

You implied that the president of the united states deserved repect IRRESPECTIVE of what one thought of him/her, it is that notion that i disagree with, the idea that just because of a position we should respect someone.

Should we respect Bush merely because he holds the post of president?

Hell no, our opinion should be based purely on merit.

Actually a lot of Americans did have the control to which country they pledge their citizenship.

I would be very suprised if the vast majority of people living in the US were not born there, but this particular point is merely an added absurdity it is not the crux of the argument.

Secondly if one despises ones one country, one can simply go to the country they feel good in.

... except there are many factors involved in where you live: Your job, your family your friends. Furthermore things are rarely that cut and dry one could dislike many aspects of the country one lived in whilst liking others.

What reason is there for someone to move because they disagree with some (or even all) of their countries actions? Why shouldn't they fight to try and help change them? What basis do you or anyone else have for dispariging those who disagree with a particular policy or poltical stance? Why should one be proud of ones country?

I'm English, the English did some pretty screwed up things in the last millenium and i'm sure as hell not proud of them. If i disagreed with the government over the war in Iraq (i'm kind of neutral) then i imagine i would not be proud of them, i'm sure as heck not proud of the ever more prominent new age nonsense that seems to be proliferating at an alarming rate over here - why should i be?

In fact why the hell should i EVER be proud of "my" country? I didn't choose to be born here, and even if I did, so what? I wasn't responsible for their past military victories, for Newton, for Dirac, for Elgar. What justification is their for feeling proud of other people's accomplishments? Biology induces feelings of pride for the actions of our friends and families but it is not biological determinancy but social indocrination that binds us to the nationalistic feelings of pride for a people grouped merely by lines drawn on a map.

America is one of those places that millions upon millions of people would do anything to spend their lives in.

As far as i can see America has a lot of things going for it, but your statement is still unreasonable, i would give almost anything to live a life of (relative) luxury; to live in an environment with modern healthcare, where clean water is bountiful, where I do not have to engage in back breaking physical labour for 16 hours a day just to earn enough for watery soup.

But is living in US really that much better than living in France? or Spain? or Germany? or the UK? or any other 1st world country?

So much better in fact that it merits doing anything to get there?

Doubtful.

Such opinions are not based on reason but on nationalistic indoctrination.

That is one of the reasons why I am proud to be an American.

Axon i think you are inventing reasons to be proud of America to justify the pride that you already feel. The question you should ask yourself is why do you feel that pride. I would be willing to bet you felt this pride well before you even began to look at the reasons.

It gets instilled into all of us, i feel it too, when they play Elgar and they show the classic British pomp and cirumstance demonstrated when the British withdrew from Hong Kong or when the Queen Mother died. I felt it. None of us our immune to the power of social influences, but our opinions need not be a slave to them.

Clyde: Know that I love to discuss such topics as we are doing right now my friend. Yet at the moment I'm really lacking the time to rebut your arguments, and believe me I am not the on to back down from a heated debate as the one that has developed. For the time being, I will step down thought, and respond to everything tomorrow. This reply is just to let you know that my silence does not mean submission. Till then,

axon

Is this "Kyoto Protocol" the one which deals with environmental stuff? I was talking to someone from Britain who mentioned it when I said something about global warming...When I said it sounded like a good idea, he replied, "That's exactly what everyone else thinks too... sounds like some of you Yankies have got your head screwed on right afterall "
I imagine we will lose a lot more than money if we don't start taking care of the planet

>> Actually, the Canadian government 'signed up' for that protocol and it is generally understood that it is going to cost that country a lot of money...

Actually they will make a lot of money.

Thru 'carbon credits'.

Countries that produce ozone polutants must 'even' this up with these carbon credits. Carbon credits can be gained by growing trees and other environmentally friendly activities.
I understand a multi billion $ deal set between Japan and Australia is moving to Canada after Australia followed the US lead and did not sign.

>> Kermit >>Its not like the Palestinians have no blood on their hands.

I was referring to Israel’s attack on Syria.

As to who is 'winning' Israel v Paleistein I think you just have to compare casualties and GDP (average income, living standard).

Originally posted by novacain
As to who is 'winning' Israel v Paleistein I think you just have to compare casualties and GDP (average income, living standard).

how can you compare any of these figures between the two countries. Isreal is heavilly supported by the US, both indirectly and directly with billions of dollars in aid and weapons. Palastine is a country under siege. In our [American] media you only hear about the Israeli casualties, but nothing about what crimes against humanity the Isrealites are commiting against the Palestinians.

Don't get me wrong, I condemn the palastinian "terrorist" attacks against innocents [women, children, unarmed citizens]. But in reality they are only retaliating against an oppressor. When Poland was under Natzi oppression you had similar acts committed daily; only difference was that these were against army men.

Unfortunately a big part of our country [America], is controlled by supporters of the Israeli couse...and there is nothing any of us can do about it.

So you see Clyde, I am critical of my country as well. I see how my statement about respecting Bush could be seen as "blind loyalty"; I guess I had a bit too much of bombarding him thrown in to my face. When the war was about to begin all around my university people carried signs "Bush = Hitler", and some other statements which I truly dispise. Emails from anti-war student organizations were sent daily where the whole US government was condemned for its actions. Unfortunately these same people can only shout few lousy phrases, but when confronted do not want to discuss. And it seemed like the college students joined the loud voices, not knowing what was really going on. A bunch of these, so-called protesters, admitted to protesting just because they are college students, and "that is why they should protest."

I'm not sure if any of this makes sense as I am dog tired, and I cannot articulate my words the way I would want to.

One more thing to novacain: I'm not certain where you are from, but if anywhere in the US a suggest whatching international media to get a bit bigger picture of what is realy going on around the world, and esspecially the middle east. I am an avid watcher/listener of the BBC.

axon
WTF??

I am Pro Paleistein.

I think that the US sending over 40% of all it foreign aid (+billions in intrest free arms loans and tax deductible private donations) to the worlds 16 richest country is deplorable.

If you had looked at the figures I recommended (since the start of the Infatada) you would have seen my point.

Here is a list of the UN Security Council Resolutions Israel is in violation of;
252 (1968)
262 (1968)
267 (1969)
271 (1969)
298 (1971)
446 (1979)
452 (1979)
465 (1980)
471 (1980)
484 (1980)
487 (1981)
497 (1981)
573 (1985)
592 (1986)
605 (1987)
607 (1986)
608 (1988)
636 (1989)
641 (1989)
672 (1990)
673 (1990)
681 (1990)
726 (1992)
799 (1992)
904 (1994)
1073 (1996)
1322 (2000)
1402 (2002)
1403 (2002)
1405 (2002)
1435 (2002)
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...esolutions.pdf

Here is the list of UNSC resolutions Paleistein is in violation of;



See the difference?

God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.
-- George W. Bush, according to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas

Did he really say that..... oh dear.

Ari Fleisher addressed that "quote"
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0701-6.html#18