Bowling for Columbine

**Govtcheez** · 09-04-2003

As a Marine, though, you've been trained in them and know how to use them effectively and safely, right? Do you think we should have mandatory safety classes for people using the guns?

**Thantos** · 09-04-2003

I would not be opposed to mandatory safety training.

It still would not address the underlaying social problems and of course it would be hard to do with all the people that illegally own weapons.

**Govtcheez** · 09-04-2003

What about tighter regulation of gun shows?

**PJYelton** · 09-04-2003

I really don't buy that argument that people will just find other ways to kill people, for two major reasons. First off a gun is an EXTREMELY easy way to kill somebody. It is very easy for someone in the heat of the moment to just kill somebody without thought with a gun, while another method requires more deliberation and planning which allows the person to change his mind and come to his senses. True, if someone truly wanted to kill someone and had thought it through, then yes he can do it with or without a gun, although without the gun it would be MUCH HARDER. How many people are killed with spur of the moment decisions with guns? Do you honestly think that a convenience store owner is just as likely to get killed if his agressor has a knife instead of a gun? A kid gets beat up by a bully. What are the odds of the bully dying if this kid owns a gun? What about if he doesn't?

Also, guns can be MASS killing weapons. There is no way the Columbine kids could have killed so many people without guns. Ditto for a deranged employee who goes back into the office that fired him. With a gun, many die, without, maybe one or two. Ever heard of a drive-by knifing? Me neither.

So the argument that people will just find other ways to kill each other is totally invalid here.

**Thantos** · 09-04-2003

PJYelton - WHY are they killing each other? The energy that people are putting into stopping guns should be better served answering that question.

Govtcheez - Can you explain your question a little more. Honestly I don't know much about gun shows, but if people that shouldn't be able to buy a weapon are able to at the shows, then yea I would think that needs to be corrected.

Just to clarify I'm not against reasonable gun control laws. But to say "guns are bad" is just ignorant.

But to what benifit would these laws have on the criminals that don't care to begin with?

**confuted** · 09-04-2003

Originally posted by Govtcheez
What about tighter regulation of gun shows?

If you take a look at the statistics, only a VERY VERY small portion of the guns used in crimes were purchased at gun shows. Most came from other avenues. So the Brady Bill and the Gun Show "loophole"... are fallicious and based on incorrect information. I swear that the legistlation was designed to mislead people.

**PJYelton** · 09-04-2003

First off, part of your argument was that people will kill each other anyways and I was just showing why that was a bad argument.

I know that its the people doing the killing, not the guns. Why do people do it? Heat of passion, depression, being ........ed, need money, want to make a statement, or maybe they are just outright insane. And you know what? If we could find a way to solve these problems then I would have no problems with guns. If we had a way to know who might snap and who might not, ditto. But I'm also realistic and know that these problems will always be there, and that there isn't a way to know beforehand in most cases who would kill and who would not. A person needs to be ........ed for a total of one second to kill with a gun. If he doesn't have a gun, then that person will almost certainly not kill. Period.

To me guns just aren't needed and certainly are not worth the numbers who are killed with them. I don't buy that they are necessary for self-defense. How many times do you hear about people getting killed either by accident or by an act of passion with a gun? Every day! Now how many times do you hear about a gun saving somebody? Never. Seriously, where are these stories? Show me some. If they are even remotely near the amount gun activisists say they are, then there should be tens of thousands of stories. I agree that a gun death is more headline news than a story where nobody got hurt because a gun saved them, but still there should be plenty of stories to give as evidence since afterall they happen 3-5 times more often than a killing according to the stat you gave.

**joshdick** · 09-04-2003

Govt, I'm not sure why you dislike the word "fark". I think it's less offensive and more humorous than it's expletive counterpart.

As for that fictitous interview, I want to remember the argument and the joke. I'm not going to try to pass it off as a real interview.

**Govtcheez** · 09-04-2003

Originally posted by Thantos
Govtcheez - Can you explain your question a little more. Honestly I don't know much about gun shows, but if people that shouldn't be able to buy a weapon are able to at the shows, then yea I would think that needs to be corrected.

Basically that you don't need a background check to buy a gun at a show.

> more humorous

That part - it's not funny IMO. But that's just my opinion.

> I'm not going to try to pass it off as a real interview.

OK, as long as you're not going to do that.

::goes to fix desk::

**~~Silvercord~~** · 09-04-2003

pelton I basically agree with everythign you said.

What about tighter regulation of gun shows?

The columbine kids bought their tec 9s at a gun show, here's a picture of one:

http://www.impactsites2000.com/site3/images2/tec9ls.jpg

And honestly, who here HASN'T wanted to kill someone at some point in their lifetime? Guns just make it super easy, I imagine it'd be pretty difficult to knife someone to death (being up front and personal and actually having to TRY).

**Govtcheez** · 09-04-2003

Originally posted by Silvercord
And honestly, who here HASN'T wanted to kill someone at some point in their lifetime?

Um.... never to the point I'd actually do something about it.

**Dalren** · 09-04-2003

Originally posted by PJYelton
To me guns just aren't needed and certainly are not worth the numbers who are killed with them. I don't buy that they are necessary for self-defense. How many times do you hear about people getting killed either by accident or by an act of passion with a gun? Every day! Now how many times do you hear about a gun saving somebody? Never. Seriously, where are these stories? Show me some.

This is the stupidst thing I have ever heard, ok maybe not, but close. Just because the media doesn't report something doesn't mean it doesn't occur. Remember last summer there were all those stories about children being abducted, everyone seemed to think this was some record setting year for child abductions. Infact the number of child abductions was down last year, and has been on a downward trend for the last few years. A few years ago there was a hype on people getting attacked by sharks, judging by the media covereage you would have thought that shark attacks had incresed dramaticaly, again in reality the number of shark attacks for the summer was around the average from the last ten years. The volume or lack thereof, of stories on a topic does not reflect on how often they occur. If you want some stories of people using guns to defend themselves, pick up an NRA magazine, they usually have several stories of people defending themselves with their legaly owned firearms.

Incase you wanted a statistic guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.

And since you wanted a story of people using guns to defend themselves I will give you two. I have a friend who lives in tampa, one night he heard a noise coming from his basement. When he got down there he found a crocodile had broken a hole in a door and gotten into his house, he shot it in the head, problem solved. Second story, the same person had recently caught someone embezling from his buissnes. A few nights later he heard a noise from downstairs. He slowly went downstairs and saw a guy with a knife, luckily my friend had grabed his shotgun before going downstairs, he got two shots off and the guy fled out the front door he had forced open. When the guy was arrested it turned out to be a friend of the man who had been caught embezelling and there was little question as to what he was planning to do inside the house.

Silvercord, the Tec 9s used in the colombine shooting were illegal to begin with so Im not sure how they got them.

Also, All commercial arms dealers at gun shows must run background checks, and the only people exempt from them are the small number of non-commercial sellers. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, at most 2 percent of guns used by criminals are purchased at gun shows, and most of those were purchased legally by people who passed background checks.

Edit2: all stats are from the Cato institute http://www.cato.org/ccs/2nd-amendment.html, http://www.cato.org/legalissues/gun-control.html unless stated otherwise

**~~Silvercord~~** · 09-04-2003

I'm pretty sure that statistically guns are used more for murder than self defense. If that's true, which it is, then you've pretty much made a total ass of yourself, and you owe an apology to Pelton (with whom I agree)

**Dalren** · 09-04-2003

You misunderstood my point, what I was calling stupid was the idea that if you hear alot about it on the media, then it must be happening alot. That point is stupid, and I won't apoligize for it, I apologize if you thought I was calling him or his beliefs stupid, but I did mention a stat that shows guns are used 3 times more often for self defense then violent crimes