Future of European/U.S. Based Programming

**EvBladeRunnervE** · 08-04-2003

I have recently been reading articles saying how that up to 1 in 10 technology jobs will be overseas in asia(do a search on CNN for it). How willt his affect us the U.S. in our position as a technology leader? Is it going to be that programming is viewed as a worthless slaveshop job(which it is in india, they get payed crap compared to western countries), or quite simply the U.S. is leaving its educational system in a flop, and the demand exceeds the supply?

what are your guys opinions on this issue.

**KurtSurge** · 08-04-2003

I posted something here before reading the article on CNN, I realized it didn't make sense anymore and edited this in instead, so ignore this post. Basicly I have no idea how this will affect us, or if it will.

**vasanth** · 08-04-2003

well most jobs would remain in the US but i think they hire programmers from outside (India).. and by the way i am Indian.. i dont see the point in bashing us saying use we work for cheap.. In indian standards the pay programmers is quite high.. for example the rent for a very luxurious house here might be Rs 20000 that is around 400 dollors per month.. and thats a verry verry big house.. SO you see what i mean

**mart_man00** · 08-04-2003

Yeah will loose some ground.

Evtentually the jobs will come back. Some day a company will actually care about the code and not the price and some more will be hired here.

It seems to me that some of the higher level jobs(not VB,c assembly) are still here(a couple of people i know have sons working at ibm, the 'software developers' got canned but the programmers stayed).

We always seem to come up with the big advancements. It will be back.

**vasanth** · 08-04-2003

Originally posted by mart_man00
Yeah will loose some ground.

Eventually the jobs will come back. Some day a company will actually care about the code and not the price and some more will be hired here.

It seems to me that some of the higher level jobs(not VB,c assembly) are still here(a couple of people i know have sons working at ibm, the 'software developers' got canned but the programmers stayed).

We always seem to come up with the big advancements. It will be back.

Even the higher level jobs are being done by non Americans in many cases.. For example India in the only place where Intel has a research centre outside US, even the Motorola in India achieved big things in fields like PC on chip etc...

Below is q quote

``Almost every design that is shipped out of TI worldwide has components designed by an Indian team,'' said Mitra, who has worked for the company for more than 15 years, five of them in the U.S. Without India, where 900 engineers design chips today compared with 16 in 1985, ``you'd be taking the foundation out of Texas Instruments,'' he said.

Even Microsoft has a research centre here and some of the research for the next generation OS is being done here... these are just a few to be named...

I think there is no meaning in talking about cheap labour etc... IT will be a global phenomena where the bright will shine no matter where they are from..

**ZerOrDie** · 08-04-2003

easy to see what will happen

indian programmer average pay 10,000$ us a year(from some recent article in times magazine?)

american programmer average pay 50,000$ us a year...

is it really hard to figure out what is going to happen?

**Shiro** · 08-04-2003

In Europe companies are leaving India, it is getting too expensive, now they are setting up development sites in China, which is cheaper. One of the reasons why India is getting too expensive, according to a personel manager I once spoke, is that Indian technicians are becoming aware they can offer high quality for a relative low budget and now they are increasing the costs of their work.

Most of the European companies still have higher jobs, as well technical as commercial, in Europe. A main reason for this is communication. Communicating with Indian or Chinese people is for Europeans sometimes a hard thing and I guess otherwise too. Different culture, different way of thinking, different way of working and ofcourse a different language. It is much easier if you can work with people grown op in your own country and speaking the same language. But globalisation is quite normal these days. A couple of months ago I worked on a project together with a development team in China. Very challenging.

**moonwalker** · 08-04-2003

thinking about language issues, I find this article interesting
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/perl/story/21769.html

**mart_man00** · 08-04-2003

is it really hard to figure out what is going to happen?

Its actually a bad move.

We people out of jobs there less money for them to have and spend. America is a big seller of this crap. You you lay off a guy it will come back.

He may not buy everythign from his company but he still buys which keeps every one going. But now people cant afford it. So were making it in a cheap country, but who will we sell it too?

There are alot of other hi tech countries. But were a big player, for money and technology.

Plus if i was fired from a company or had a friend fired i wouldnt buy anything from them unless I had to even if i could afford it. Maybe some people are doing that.

It always seems to come back, the question is just when.

**novacain** · 08-05-2003

Did the textile (clothes) manufacturing jobs come back? No
(look how many countries Nike has moved thru looking for cheaper labour)

Did the car manufacturing jobs come back? No

Did the jobs that went to Mexico from the US come back? No

Will the IT jobs come back?
NO.

Corporations care more about the bottom line (the $$) than the long term effects of moving labour markets offshore. They accept no social responsibility only a duty to make profit for their shareholders (at any expense).

The problem is;
Each job that moves offshore is another person on unemployment not paying taxes.

Who pays the unemployment?
Not the corporation, we do thru higher taxes.

Does the corporation pay taxes on its increased profit?
No the profit is generated offshore and the corporation has negotiated lower taxes.

Do we see the cheaper prices the decreased labour costs allow?
Raw coffee has gone down in price over 60% in the last year (less than a $1 a pound now) but I don't see the savings at the market.

>>It always seems to come back, the question is just when.<<

Name one job that has returned after being sent offshore.

**EvBladeRunnervE** · 08-05-2003

I dont dislike the Indians, I know that you have experienced workers, but quite simply, they work for what an american would be below the poverty line on, and this will put people below the poverty line rather quick.

I will remain slightly unaffected by this, i will just move to India after learning Mandarin(India does speak mainly mandarin right? I read somewhere that it did), and it lets me speak with china to. This world is getting to the point that in order to do any tech jobs, one has to learn asian languages, and live in asia, just as a little hint to some people who think they can survive on C++ and English only.

I think also the main problem is it is very rare to find an adequate U.S. programmer, because it sucks when even some developing countries are better in mathematics(hell, make that english also

) than the U.S. (india being one).

**ZerOrDie** · 08-05-2003

india most certainly does not speak mandarin

**mart_man00** · 08-05-2003

To put it bluntly, who comes up with everything(most of the time)?

How many of the Idian guys are qualified enough to turn on a computer by themseleves without wearing a helmet? We probally lost the VB stuff(hey, it was useless from the start) but we will get the serious stuff back eventually.

Eventual some new arch will come out and all the VBs will be wondering why nothing works. I havnt heard of many coding masters over there or anywhere. The ones they have are either to scattered to work or will just come here any way(would you want to be a country that cant code? thats almost like bing in canada!!! canada!!!

)

Plus open source is alittle to blame too. Free software == no proffits. Its good for us but its also bad for business.

Thats the one reason i like Gates, he made this stuff a real business. Later he completelty screwed it but he help to come up with it.

**Perspective** · 08-05-2003

Originally posted by mart_man00
To put it bluntly, who comes up with everything(most of the time)?

How many of the Idian guys are qualified enough to turn on a computer by themseleves without wearing a helmet? We probally lost the VB stuff(hey, it was useless from the start) but we will get the serious stuff back eventually.

Eventual some new arch will come out and all the VBs will be wondering why nothing works. I havnt heard of many coding masters over there or anywhere. The ones they have are either to scattered to work or will just come here any way(would you want to be a country that cant code? thats almost like bing in canada!!! canada!!! )

Plus open source is alittle to blame too. Free software == no proffits. Its good for us but its also bad for business.

Thats the one reason i like Gates, he made this stuff a real business. Later he completelty screwed it but he help to come up with it.

i dont even know where to start. i feel like i have actually lost intellegence by reading that post. bah....

**mart_man00** · 08-05-2003

i dont even know where to start. i feel like i have actually lost intellegence by reading that post. bah....

So America never actually did anythign with technology/computers?
We dont buy alot of there crap?
We dont have alot of the infrastructure here?
All the best programmers in the entire come from places other than here?
Microsoft isnt a old and successful business?
People often pay 100s of dollars for things they can get free?
Companies dont need to a make profit to pay their employees?

Now i want to watch Candian Bacon.....

Thread: Future of European/U.S. Based Programming

Thread Tools

Search Thread

Display

Future of European/U.S. Based Programming

Similar Threads

looking for non-MFC based socket programming sample

why page based I/O can improve performance?

Actors, cues, event based logic.

need help with class based string

Bush vs. Kerry