US attack in Iraq (WAR Talk)

I read your artical from the NSA web site. Not exactly an impartial site, being run by the US military (.navy.mil/).

"The comments that follow are not intended to address the POW issue directly, still less the question of what should or should not count as "war" in present circumstances."

But I found it interesting. Especialy the following;

"The classification of prisoners taken in Afghanistan as "illegal combatants" immediately attracted much scrutiny, in part because international law provides no precise definition of what such a categorization implies, and in part because its use in the present instance was intended to deprive Taliban and al-Qaida fighters of the protections afforded prisoners of war under the 1949 Geneva Conventions."

the paragraph after your quote on the Hague Act of 1907 is also interesting;

"Among these the most ambitious is the first Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (Protocol I), concluded in 1977. Protocol I, which the United States has signed but not ratified, tried to take account of the perfectly obvious fact that no guerilla organization or resistance movement worthy of the name could possibly survive strict adherence to the requirements set forth at the Hague."

Correct me if I am wrong but the last instance of the Hague Act is the IJC which not only did the US refuse to sign, but activly campaigned against it . When it was passed and 78 countries signed the US enacted what has been called the 'Hague Invasion Act' and coerced 80 countries into signing a disclaimer that they would never prosecute US servicemen using the new international laws.



Can you explain the difference in treatment of Afghanii Taliban fighters who are suspected Al Queda members and Cuban terrorists?

Specifically why if I am a Taliban fighter in Afghanistan I get up to two years in Camp X-Ray Cuba without any rights / human contact. These guys are in solitary confinement, have about an hour outside a week and no contact with their families.

But if I hijack a plane an make it fly to the US I get BAIL!!?? (I am refering to the two very recent hijackings) Seems a uneven application of the law on terrorists.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/5535985.htm

"That same year, Cuban Army intelligence Lt. Col. Jose Fernandez Pupo hijacked a civilian plane to the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay. Pupo was acquitted of hijacking charges by a federal jury in Washington, D.C., but he was denied asylum because he used guns in the hijacking."

Hey, the Supreme Court just ruled that US law did not apply to Guantanamo Bay?


>>Yeah, Zahid -- almost all of that info? in those links are half-truths or incomplete or just plain wrong... 1 blatant one is it has the US invaded Panama in 1960's which is wrong - we invaded in 1988 and the further explanation in that 1 is just incomplete just like the others..

Again OSR you can't get it right.

First it was January 9, 1964 that Panamanians attacked US citizens and interests in Panama. Panama later took the US to the UN over the matter.

Second it was December 20,1989 that the US started bombing Panama (not 1988).

Like the rest of your posts this one contains "half-truths or incomplete or just plain wrong".

Quote:

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Originally posted by OneStiffRod
Yeah, Zahid --
.....................
........................................
plz don't be another novacain...

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I don't know how is novacain. Actually for further verification & explanation there are lots of resource on line, library, etc. This is just a list .
Did you visit other links? Specially FreeSpeech.Org

I'm not believe in the existence of absolutely true, pure , perfect, correct, right, happy, peace, neutral, etc ... .. . I think those are impossible. All you have to do or can do with is rules of paper. Democracy is not the only solution, but better in average. Sometimes ..

Anyway, how do you justify the US attack in Iraq? Okay.. Actually I'm not that much interested in politics but last few weeks I studied little on it, I mean I opened myself to be informed on Iraq issue.

I'm & was in dark, the people who are against US policy always want to explain that US did this & that, I never believed desperately. Even many old people. I observed US gov policy in Middle east, Palestine, WTO, UN, World Environment, International Law, etc. Lot about Vietnam War, Iran-Iraq War. And the Palestine issue is just alway in front of me. This is a life witness for last 50 years and I'm 28+. I'm sorry you can't make me believe that you are doing right over there. Please don't ever tell me about it. And another one.

It does not matter you agree with me or not. Actually I found that cultural history is a big factor. Root is very important. This war is important for me. It started another process for another concept in me, I guess you did not understand my words. I have few other concept, such as on religion, democracy, being neutral, believe, patriotism, etc. Religion is one of the most important. You know this is about true or lie. Day by day confidence grows or gets adjusted.

This WAR is a WRONG and we have to pay for it, it could be today or tomorrow.
If webmaster allow I want to open a poll. Not to strengthen my confidence, you know I thought on word patriotism too. I'm eager to know the opinion of my fellow members, specially from US. We know majority of you are from US.

US attack in Iraq is a WRONG. Do you agree?
No
Yes

>>Again OSR you can't get it right.
>>First it was January 9, 1964 that Panamanians attacked US citizens and interests in Panama. Panama later took the US to the UN over the matter.

um where in osr's statement did he say anything trying to prove facts...he simply said that they werent the truth.

>>Second it was December 20,1989 that the US started bombing Panama (not 1988).
god forbid he was probably thinking right off the top of his head and was a year off....

>>Did you visit other links? Specially FreeSpeech.Org
who the hell is trying to take your free speech? im definately not, i havent seen anyone else that is, you express your opinions and views and i express mine...so why do you keep bringing up this free speech thing?

>>This WAR is a WRONG...US attack in Iraq is a WRONG. Do you agree? No Yes

no, i think there is plenty of proof to support the fact that saddam has chemical and biological weapons. i think there is also proof of terrorist cells in iraq.(hell, we've found terrorists cells in the U.S.) even if you believe this war is wrong, the inspectors found and destroyed stockpiles of chemical weapons....if they found and destroyed these why would you think there arent more, better yet, how can you think we'll find them all.

i have to believe that there are more weapons ... i think people forget we didnt go into iraq to colonize, we want to get rid of saddam and help set up a new government and get out, thats it, someone already said it, we've secured most of the iraqi oil feilds if it were about oil...we'd have it by now.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just look at the reaction. The site FreeSpeech.Org is gone.

I'm not that surprised :) Now go for ThisOne

um...the freespeech.org site was still up, its the freespeech.org/F.uck_america_die_in_pig_$hit.html site thats not working correctly

youre other pro anti-american terrorism site is up and running swimmingly:D

Yeah.. you will find more than truth in real world.

Ohh . . I guess you all forgot few words for the time being, such as Human Rights, International Law, Democracy, Right & Wrong. Papa don't preach me.

Universal & alltime truth, or you can say rule of Nature: Might is right.
I strongly believe in it. But cannot remember always.

um, im sorry, but i have no clue what this stammering incoherent post is supposed to mean?

wait a sec.. I have to find the meaning of stammering. omm..
Ohhh please, you are such a innocent guy. It's really difficult to find the meaning, specially in such a bad time for morality.

actually i was being serious, i have no clue what your message was in the above post, i never claimed to be innocent. you wanted to enlighten everyone w/your opinion and quite frankly i didnt understand it, so becuase i want clerification you flame me?

::flame suit: on:: :cool:
lets rock

I never think of flaming others, I always expect opinion from others, it can differ with me or agree with me.

Quote:

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Originally posted by dP munky
youre other pro anti-american terrorism site is up and running swimmingly:D

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You called it this way. I learned lots of things about US policy which are conflicting from the opinion of knowledge source. I could not trust them, they were in a process.

But I found this WAR more than terrorism. This is the first time in my life I'm experiencing.
Occam's Razor approach: Consider the choices and select the one that is the simplest, because simple explanation is almost always the best.

Now if one of us in any way says that this WAR is reasonable and this is not a wrong, than I have to learn more and learn about him & them.

i may call it that way? the name of the site is american state terrorism!!!
you wanna do "objective" reading about a topic and you go to a ultra left wing web site w/secret conspiracy theory's and u.s. troops killing kids, but oh wait, they fail to mention that that kid that sgt. gi joe shot and killed had an ak-47 in his hand pointing it at him, youre telling me if youre life is threatened you wont react....i dont care if its an old man, or a 4 year old, if either of the 2 point an ak47 at me i wouldnt think twice about pulling the trigger

This is not a new approach for me. Here is again for your reference:

Long time ago I heard two pairs of words: Religious-Hypocrite & Non Religions-Hypocrite.
One thing I found in last 28 years is that truth is beyond the question of belief. Such as (examples are in a broad sense):
Situation A. I'm standing right in front of you; you need not to believe it, do you? You are seeing me, this is true.
Situation B. I'm standing behind the wall, you are not sure.. You are confused.. But you have some sort of evidence ... now you may or may not believe.

So.. where there is a chance of not being true.. you have a choice to (will) believe. I smelt the word believe as dark, suspicion, confusion, lie.. Truth is even much brighter than sunshine.

If you think this WAR is justified. May be you are out of your mind, there are lots of reason to be.

Remark the use of "may", this is my daily life way of approach.

>>So.. where there is a chance of not being true.. you have a choice to (will) believe.

so by this rational you simply choose NOT to believe what may or may not be true??? for me i didnt make a decision about this war until reports start comming in about finding chemical suits and injectors. this is like you say standing behind a wall, youre behind the wall, im not sure if youre there, but another person can see you behind that wall and tells me he thinks that he can see you should i disregard him until i can see for myself?

Quote:

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Originally posted by dP munky

for me i didnt make a decision about this war until reports start comming in about finding chemical suits and injectors. this is like you say standing behind a wall, youre behind the wall, im not sure if youre there

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So.. what you do think ? You are the GOD?
You know everything?
You don't have to care others, if you are right or wrong?
You need not to justify?
You can do what ever you like?
What you say is true?
You can kill people, not only 1, 2, 3, also hundreds, thousands, millions?
You can occupy my country?
You know what is good/bad for me/my country/my family?
You will tell me what to do for me?
You are the authority to give the definition of freedom?
Did I ask you to free my country?
You have the right to have nuke because you need to kill people because you are GOD?
You will free my country and govern and play & drink my resources, if necessary will kill me again and I will smile at you because you are GOD?

Quote:

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but another person can see you behind that wall and tells me he thinks that he can see you should i disregard him until i can see for myself?

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Should you agree with him until you see me yourself?

I guess you already know, I still don't believe the existence of GOD.

WOW, way to take everything i said way out of context and turn it into something it's not

..im done arguing w/you, i dont think you funamentaly know what im saying, nor what you are saying so just take it somewhere else

::exits the fighting arena::

Quote:

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Originally posted by dP munky
WOW, way to take everything i said way out of context and turn it into something it's not

..im done arguing w/you, i dont think you funamentaly know what im saying, nor what you are saying so just take it somewhere else

::exits the fighting arena::

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I have given hints, just did not put my finger on the object.

Not only me, you also know what I'm talking about. If you really don't know, I wish once you will know. Actually I had to know, how old you are.

If you are 25+, I'm eager to know. How many people of you, you are representing here to place your opinion? The outer world is all talking about US gov , should it be gov or reality is that this is the people of USA doing?


"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction"

If Only COMMON SENSE prevails.the world would be a better
place to live.

The problem in this world is not mainly with the dictators
who rule over it. but with the naive uninformed masses
who obey them.


zahid:

Quote:

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"So.. what you do think ? You are the GOD?
You know everything?
You don't have to care others, if you are right or wrong?
You need not to justify?
You can do what ever you like?
What you say is true?
You can kill people, not only 1, 2, 3, also hundreds, thousands, millions?

You know what is good/bad for me/my country/my family?
You will tell me what to do for me?
You are the authority to give the definition of freedom?"

---

Thank you for asking saddam hussein these questions.
I hope saddam will write back to you in detail.With an appology.


Dear Mr zahid:

here is COMMON SENSE 101.
Look at this phrase:

"COMMON SENSE"

Now take the word "SENSE" out.
Add the word "NONSENSE"

Here we have it.

"COMMON NONSENSE"

zahid:

"One thing I found in last 28 years is that truth is beyond the question of belief. Such as (examples are in a broad sense): "

Many ppl around the globe cant handle the truth. because
they have no COMMON SENSE.

Here is the truth:

If you live in a country , that has a dictator who kills&maims
&totures&rapes its citizen, and when he is bored attacks
its neighboring countries to do the same. Its not an internal
tribal problem anymore. Here if you dont want world to
come to your door and kick the bast out, you should rise
up yourself and fix the problem.

from north africa to the middle east there are approx 200
million arabs and in 22 arab countries.Every single one of
them is ruled by an dictator.

Show me in the last 100 years one single uprising in any
arab nation against a dictator. your guess is right . none.

The problem is that every one wants to view this war from
the tribal point of view.
I look at it as an intl point of view. the world cant wait for
saddam to die of natural causes. it has to act in the face
of inaction.

I am iranian(persian) by birth.i dont hate arabs.i dont hate
americans. I was 13 and participated in iranian revolution
of 1979. i lost many friends and class mates during that time
and later in saddam war on iran.Today millions of my young
countrymen(college students, journalists,average teenagers)
are waging a daily successful battle with the fanatical
regime in iran. some battles they lose and some they win.

But win or lose they are doing some thing about it.

In middle east, there is no movement by arabs against the regimes where it counts.

ppl in iraq will be hurt by this war . i agree. and it bothers me.

But What anti war ppl are saying in effect is:


"since saddam has no WMD and no CW , and has not recently
killed&gassed its neighbours; then he should be left alone
to have the right to do his killings within iraq.untill he dies
of old age. so his sycho sons will start where he left off"

I dont buy all of reasoning by american side neither.
when they say iraq is a direct threat to america.i say bowl!.

when they say invading iraq will free the ppl from tyrany.
i say yes(never mind the orig intentions)

I look at it as a citizen of the world.
If the world wants to be politicaly correct .let it be.
but why dictators should feel secure from the wrath of their
victims.?

In bangeladesh you fought the tyrany of pakistan with the
direct military help by india . how is it any different this
time with iraq?
zahid, i am sure you agree with the statment "dignity for all".
As one persian poet (150AD) says;

humans are all branches of a tree,
lets keep all of them free!.


cheers!:)

i'll reply even though its really late,

>I read your artical from the NSA web site. Not exactly an impartial site, being run by the US military (.navy.mil/).

yet it covers the subject quite well.

>Correct me if I am wrong but the last instance of the Hague Act is the IJC which not only did the US refuse to sign, but activly campaigned against it . When it was passed and 78 countries signed the US enacted what has been called the 'Hague Invasion Act' and coerced 80 countries into signing a disclaimer that they would never prosecute US servicemen using the new international laws.
<

your not gonna like my answer but i say, good. You have no clue how much $$$$ they would get if they had done otherwise, let me put it this way, it would never have worked out.

>
Can you explain the difference in treatment of Afghanii Taliban fighters who are suspected Al Queda members and Cuban terrorists?
<

the circumstances, think about it.

>
But if I hijack a plane an make it fly to the US I get BAIL!!?? (I am refering to the two very recent hijackings) Seems a uneven application of the law on terrorists.
<

and now think about the difference in the actions, 9-11, and hijaking a plane and not kiling anyone, just to get to the U.S.
plus i'm betting they have a lot of sympathy around there.

though my arguments ARE mostly speculative since im not up to date on the subject, so i can't offer more than that.

I will answer you .. need little more time to pass, we want to see the progress .... .... ... . little more time to clear the cloud, let us see the reason of this attack.
If still anyone says that is war is for the freedom of Iraqies, this is like a joke. Once there will be no one to tell this joke and no one to hear.

One thing, you better get a hint and that is “I'm not a believer. Naturally I don't believe easily.” Most of the time I start to believe from scratch, I mean the trust level of zero.

May be you are already thinking about my title.

Actually we don't have enough time to hunt for all truth, rarely we pick few of them. I felt little interest to find the reason of this war or you can say the policy in ME. This is the zero+ state ...

Primarily I can guess if you are an Iranian, again if you are, You have the bitter experience with Iraq.

Quote:

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Originally posted by SAMSAM
If Only COMMON SENSE prevails.the world would be a better place to live.

zahid:
Thank you for asking .................
...................
Many ppl around the globe cant handle the truth. because they have no COMMON SENSE.

ppl in iraq will be hurt by this war . i agree. and it bothers me.

I dont buy all of reasoning by american side neither. when they say iraq is a direct threat to america.i say bowl!.

when they say invading iraq will free the ppl from tyrany. i say yes(never mind the orig intentions)
.................................................. ...

In bangeladesh you fought the tyrany of pakistan ....................................
zahid, i am sure you agree with the statment "dignity for all".

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This link will give you a simple idea on the history of Independence of my country.

I appreciate your knowledge that you have learned recently, that was March 25, 1971 beginning of the killing. March 26 declared independence, mark it's "Independence" from Pakistan. You know the real beginning of this ? That was 21st February 1952. This is our National Shahid Day(21st February). Now International Mother Language Day declared by UN.
..............................................
..............................................
Duration of nine months war, approximately 3,000,000 (Three millions) of civilians died in that bloody fighting that followed, and millions of refugees poured into India. During the early months of the civil war, East Pakistani guerrillas also crossed into India. Army officers of East Pakistan Regiment let them trained in and out of border. They fought and were devided into 11 sections in 11 areas. The government forces shelled Indian territory and followed the guerrillas across the border. Indian troops fourth border clashes with the Pakistani government soldiers. In December 1971, few thousands Indian army advanced into East Pakistan and joined the guerrillas. The combined forces of the Guerrillas and Indians overpowered West Pakistan, which surrendered on the 16th December, 1971.

> If still anyone says that is war is for the freedom of Iraqies

In the weekend I saw a TV program on the history of Iraq back in 1921. Then the English came there and said to the people of Iraq, which was not Iraq in those days: we are here to free you, not to take your country. The English defeated the Ottomans and installed an English government in Iraq. The Iraqi people first were happy with them, but then the thought came that the English were not there to free them, they were just another party taking their country.

These days the Americans and their coalition is telling the people of Iraq that they are there to free them, not to take their country. The Americans also want to install an American government for undefined time, as far as I know, to replace the regime of Saddam Hoessein. I wonder how the Iraqi's will react on that. Probably the first days or weeks they will be happy that Saddam Hussein is gone and they get food, medicines and other support. But after some time the same situation might happen as in 1921.

Some more info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2719939.stm

Yeah.. I read the article recently.. as I said, this is trust in zero+ state .
I guess future will provide more article to read on that. Hint: "Reconstruction", what an extraordinary word !!!!!!!!! You will see the meaning, if necessary new defination, at least this is GOD we are talking about. GOD destroyed and will reconstruct, that's GOD's wish, but this GOD needs money, oil, power, a place to do it, all is available under/above the sand. It will even help next war against next country, and of course the own people of GOD!!!!!!!.

You know? This is not the time for me to explain it to others, it's time to watch and learn. There are millions of people/history/elements/facts to explain.

I just wander to recall few words came out from mouth of US leaderships: Human RIghts, International Law, Democracy, UN . huh b..l.s..t

"Might is Right", no one will be able to change the rule, ever in future, never in the past.
So.. be mighty .. .. ... that will protect your right.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Shiro
> If still anyone says that is war is for the freedom of Iraqies
The Americans also want to install an American government for undefined time, as far as I know, to replace the regime of Saddam Hoessein. ... .. . .. .. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .. .. .. .... But after some time the same situation might happen as in 1921.

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Ohh.. don't be afraid. This is not 1921. It's 21st century. Do you think Kuwait(Gov & resource) is out of US control as well as KSA? No body does. So, that's never necessary in this century.
[Edit] Those words will give us comperative happiness in near future. I guess you know what happiness is, how it come. Those are roar of GOD, GOD can do whatever he wishes, but will give less pain because GOD is so kind.

i know i said i was done, but i couldnt resist....


...i cant wait to see the look on these peoples faces when they realize they're supporting a modern day hitler

Quote:

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Originally posted by dP munky
i know i said i was done, but i couldnt resist....


...i cant wait to see the look on these peoples faces when they realize they're supporting a modern day hitler

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Yeah.. as I said you are such an innocent guy, you don't even understand, that you are doing it. Iraq is under attack by the force of Hitler. Already occupied.
I feel sorry for you, you are killing yourself, your morality. See.. there are millions of people, not politicians, ordinary peoples... are protesting, talking about the authority to do this, Legality. Look at the UN now, ohh.. you will not be able to look at. You are into a jar. You have get out of the jar to see the shape. If possible physically, else at lease through thinking. Think, how will you prove that the earth is round?

okay.. sorry I will not try you.. actually your state is because of your mindset or you are naturally not a thinker or you are not enough mature to be at least near neutral, may be you are a patriot and anxious for soldiers fighting over there.

>>naturally not a thinker
im not a thinker, yet you cant string a sentence together to save your life

there is a difference between a patriot and a realist.....how can you say, iraq is already occupied by saddam (the new hitler) and then blame the US for trying to overthrow the government? you dont make any sense

i suggest you dont try to tell me what my morality is, you dont know how i feel about this war, you dont know if i have family in that country needlessly dying, no you dont care, unless theyre from the middle east they're the great satan... you people act like youre too good for help, and then when we do help you pretend like you did it youreself......

Quote:

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Originally posted by dP munky

there is a difference between a patriot and a realist.....how can you say, iraq is already occupied by saddam (the new hitler) and then blame the US for trying to overthrow the government? you dont make any sense

Ohh.. did I ever tell you that Saddam is A Hitler? Cann't remember. I guess, all that happened because of language problem.


i suggest you dont try to tell me what my morality is, you dont know how i feel about this war, you dont know if i have family in that country needlessly dying,

read it again.. I presented few possibilities .. did not specify what you are. Read it all again, you you think you are a guy of morality and you have enough data/information about the incident. Ask yourself why they are protesting? You will find the inspiration from hundreds of millions of people.

no you dont care, unless theyre from the middle east they're the great satan... you people act like youre too good for help, and then when we do help you pretend like you did it youreself......

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Did anyone invided you to be GOD? Did you care UN, who gave you the authority to do this? Whoooooo...? Please don't ask .... you better study more.

Quote:

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Originally posted by dP munky

there is a difference between a patriot and a realist.....how can you say, iraq is already occupied by saddam (the new hitler) and then blame the US for trying to overthrow the government? you dont make any sense

Ohh.. did I ever tell you that Saddam is A Hitler? Cann't remember. I guess, all that happened because of language problem.
>>iraq is already occupied by saddam
>>US for trying to overthrow the government?
Here is the difference, One. who told you that saddam occupied. Did you observed around? Is there any real wrold example there?
Two. Who gave you the permission to overthrow the government? Whooo.... or you just don't need permission, here I said you are GOD. Got it?


i suggest you dont try to tell me what my morality is, you dont know how i feel about this war, you dont know if i have family in that country needlessly dying,

read it again.. I presented few possibilities .. did not specify what you are. Read it all again, you you think you are a guy of morality and you have enough data/information about the incident. Ask yourself why they are protesting? You will find the inspiration from hundreds of millions of people.
Remark the last para:
>>okay.. sorry I will not try you.. actually your state is because of your mindset or you are naturally not a thinker or you are not enough mature to be at least near neutral, may be you are a patriot and anxious for soldiers fighting over there.


no you dont care, unless theyre from the middle east they're the great satan... you people act like youre too good for help, and then when we do help you pretend like you did it youreself......

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Did anyone invided you to be GOD? Did you care UN, who gave you the authority to do this? Whoooooo...? Please don't ask .... you better study more.

>>Did anyone invided you to be GOD?
no, but i didnt think i was playing GOD, since when is helping the guy who's down a bad thing?...

>>Did you care UN, who gave you the authority to do this?
who gave hitler the authority to kill 11 million people, who gave saddam the authority to kill hundreds of thousands of his own people?

>>dont asK?
why? because you dont have the answers, or becuase youre afraid of them?

Quote:

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Originally posted by dP munky
>>Did anyone invided you to be GOD?
no, but i didnt think i was playing GOD,
I guess you are missing. I was telling him the GOD who:
knows everything(he thinks),
don't have to care others, if he are right or wrong
need not to justify(he thinks),
can do what ever he likes(he thinks),
What he says is true(he thinks),
can kill people, not only 1, 2, 3, also hundreds, thousands, millions(he thinks),
can occupy my country(he thinks),
knows what is good/bad for me/my country/my family(he thinks),
will tell me what to do for me(he thinks),
are the authority to give the definition of freedom,
have the right to have nuke because he need to kill people because he is GOD
will free my country and govern and play & drink my resources, if necessary will kill me again and I will smile at him because he is GOD


>>Did you care UN, who gave you the authority to do this?
who gave hitler the authority to kill 11 million people, who gave saddam the authority to kill hundreds of thousands of his own people?

So..... you can see the face of Hitler on Mr. Bush and the face of Mr. Saddam too.


>>dont asK?
why? because you dont have the answers, or becuase youre afraid of them?

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Did you find any hint of that? Because you have not yet answered lots of question infront of you. You cann't handle the answer. You will find more questions after answer. And will be ramain unanswered as well.

nows the part where you call me the white devil .......... american satan pig right?

i dont think you understand what youre saying, why dont you just quit while youre ahead....well, why dont you just quit because really.....you dont get it?

i think i've answered every "question" that i could make out from your posts, like i said, i dont understand anything youre saying becuase...well, it doesnt make sense, so...when you can clearly and concisly make an argument for whatever your position is... THEN post.....

Quote:

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Originally posted by dP munky
nows the part where you call me the white devil .......... american satan pig right?

See.. here we don't use that f.. word. But I have observed through this board and movie.. online chat.. Except books, news papers, articles.. use of this word is very common among you people. I guess age is another reason.
Your answer: No, I can watch CNN, BBC, as well as other TV channels, News papers, Radios.. .. and other sources.. specially online. There are millions of people over there who is agains the WAR many of them are protesting, many of them are not, there could be lots of reasons.

And not only this issue, there are lots of other very interesting issues, that will not let it happen. And for me??? it's almost impossible at least for now. I can't think of it. I can debate with you on it, I'm sure you will not be able to win. This board is a witness, and ohh.. there are hundreds of reasons.


i dont think you understand what youre saying, why dont you just quit while youre ahead....well, why dont you just quit because really.....you dont get it?

i think i've answered every "question" that i could make out from your posts, like i said, i dont understand anything youre saying becuase...well, it doesnt make sense, so...when you can clearly and concisly make an argument for whatever your position is... THEN post.....

---

See .. I guess.. we are not close enough to understand the fact. We are physically far away from each other, and far away mentality, and of course information resources on this issue. So, you did not get all of my symbolic examples, questions. If you have time, if you find little interest, you can start from level zero too. If you are eager to know the truth. I need not to tell you the truth. I don't believe that way. You know, how I do, I already explained.

>>Did anyone invided you to be GOD? Did you care UN, who gave you the authority to do this? Whoooooo...? Please don't ask .... you better study more.

Zahid, who gave the UN the right to administer the whole world... who gave the UN and YOU and anyone else the right to question the United States of America.

Please, you have not the right to involve yourself in our affairs and your lack of knowledge about these issues involving the US only hurt your argumentz... noone gave you the right to question the UNITED STATES - i command thee to stand down and shut your pie hole...

NO ONE shall speak out against us anymore, and that is a commandment - empowered by god - god bless the USA.

uuuuffffff .. .at last we found the GOD. There is the roar of GOD

Read first all above new hero.

Here is your answer:

Quote:

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Originally posted by OneStiffRod
Zahid, who gave the UN the right to administer the whole world... who gave the UN and YOU and anyone else the right to question the United States of America.

Ans: The member countries of UN. ohh and USA is one of them. As you voted for your gov. as you sign on agreement.


Please, you have not the right to involve yourself in our affairs and your lack of knowledge about these issues involving the US only hurt your argumentz... noone gave you the right to question the UNITED STATES - i command thee to stand down and shut your pie hole...

really? ohh forgot, you are GOD?


NO ONE shall speak out against us anymore, and that is a commandment - empowered by god - god bless the USA.

---

I can see great progress of you life to be next Hitler X of this world. Congratulations in advance.

> Iraq is under attack by the force of Hitler.

It is the US and its coalition which attacks Iraq. Hitler is already dead, according to historicians he killed himself in WWII, back in the period 1940-1945.

> This is not 1921. It's 21st century.

Yep, I know that dude. My point was that it is interesting to see how things happened in almost the same way in history.

Hmmm. I followed this discussion a while, but I think I'm lost now.

21st Day of WAR: Seems this is the END of the very primary stage of this WAR. (If there is anymore stages).
Lets see what happen till 27th, 29th day of WAR. Problematic numbers for USA. I guess next week will clear all problems.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Liger86
fine, don't be my friend. I guess I was born in a dumpster!:mad:

---

I dont know what Bush thought but no one would like to see his or her dead in the war, it really sucks~ :rolleyes:

> Problematic numbers for USA.

What's problematic about it? That the war might last a whole month?

I don't understand the view that winning the war in more than 2 weeks is somehow a failure. Our progress has been amazing so far; I don't see how anything can really be called a failure so far.

$$$ They may need coders to develop new military software. $$$

> They may need coders to develop new military software.

They always need coders, because military products are always under development and every year new military products appear. That's a bit sad. Technology used in and developed for military products is usually the latest technology and extremely interesting for technicians, but the sad thing is that it is for the army.

>>Technology used in and developed for military products is usually the latest technology and extremely interesting for technicians, but the sad thing is that it is for the army.

Unlike you or probably most europeans with exception of UK the US takes great pride in it's military and appreciates developing the best stuff for it...

http://www.virtualbattlefieldsystems.com/

This is software made by Chech's for the US military -- same ppl who made OperationFlashpoint...

you see the price tag on that bad boy....ouch

"Unlike you or probably most europeans with exception of UK the US takes great pride in it's military and appreciates developing the best stuff for it..."

The amount of money the U.S. spends on "defence" is a disgrace.

>>The amount of money the U.S. spends on "defence" is a disgrace.
i kind of agree on this, it's bad that we have so many domestic probelms and pour billions of dollars into the military, it pays off when we want to take military action but if we can afford it for the army how come not for welfare reform or other stuff like that?

>>The amount of money the U.S. spends on "defence" is a disgrace.

I don't think it's a disgrace - I think it is far more troubling that all of our states spend most of their money fielding TRAFFIC COPS that spend all their time ticketing and creating revenue for the state to field more trafic cops.

>>you see the price tag on that bad boy....ouch

it's only $149 but they expect you to buy 10's and 100's of copies.

I wonder what this world would be like if arms sales were illegal and free trade actually existed. If the companies and countries that sold WMD were responsible for the use they were put too.


The U.S., Europe and Japan spend US$350 billion each year on agricultural subsidies (seven times as much as global aid to poor countries), and this money creates gluts that lower commodity prices and erode the living standard of the world's poorest people.

According to Mark Malloch Brown, the head of the United Nations Development Program. These farm subsidies cost poor countries about $50 billion a year in lost agricultural exports.



Strange, that's about the same as the total of developed countries' foriegn aid.

Quote:

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Originally posted by dP munky
>>The amount of money the U.S. spends on "defence" is a disgrace.
i kind of agree on this, it's bad that we have so many domestic probelms and pour billions of dollars into the military, it pays off when we want to take military action but if we can afford it for the army how come not for welfare reform or other stuff like that?

---

While the US may spend billions on defense, it accounts for only about 16% of total expenditures. The majority (39%) goes to pensions and income security.

"While the US may spend billions on defense, it accounts for only about 16% of total expenditures. The majority (39%) goes to pensions and income security."

The US will spend 1.6 trillion dollars over the next 5 years on defence. 1.6 trillion dollars.... imagine what could be done with even a fraction of that money.

alternative energy sources so we can blast off to other planets and live there comfortably so we are not close to the sun when it expands and eats up the earth.

That and a really big computer for me.

Hey Clyde, I'm not saying that it isn't alot of money, but it is estimated that the U.S. will budget 1.8 trillion dollars for human resources in the year 2008 alone. I am not trying to start a flame war, just wanted to point out that the defense department doesn't get as much of the budget as people are led to believe. I have no problem spending 1.8 trillion dollars for human resources, the government should spend most of it's money helping the people that it represents.:)

got my info from http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2004/

"I am not trying to start a flame war"

:) Don't worry i wouldn't get into a flame war with someone who has a quote from Feynman as their sig =)

What i find gauling about the US budgeting is that it spends a greater percentage of its considerable wealth on "defence", than other 1st world countries and less on environmental issues, aid for third world countries,etc. I mean the US has a poor literacy record that could easily be rectified by spending a bit more on education and a bit less on tanks, planes, bombs et al.

As uncle Ben always said "with great power comes great responsibility" and I just think that continuing to increase the military budget when the US is already vastly superior to everyone else and at the expense of many other humane causes is not exactly showing "great responsibility".

<<I mean the US has a poor literacy record that could easily be rectified by spending a bit more on education and a bit less on tanks, planes, bombs et al.

I see your point and agree with you. Reading is the most important skill a person can learn.

Greatest Progress!!! in 21 Days of USA Vs Iraq WAR : US flag-raising understandable

Nothing to be serious: This is symbolic and symbol of freedom. I cann't hide myself for 86400-7-365.


LIBERATORS OR CONQUERING INVADERS?
Cpl Edward Chin from New York of the 3rd battalion, 4th Marines regiment, set up the star and stripes flag on the face of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's statue before to tear down it, in downtown Bagdad, Wednesday, April 9, 2003. (AP Photo/Laurent Rebours)

Nothing to be serious: This is symbolic and symbol of freedom. I cann't hide myself for 86400-7-365.


US servicemen hoist the Stars and Stripes flag at the deep-sea port of Umm Qasr.

if you were comming to liberate america from the opression of a tyrant and you and your squad fought like hell against the resistance, even though youre here for the betterment of the U.S. you'd still raise YOUR flag.....or wouldnt you?

am i imagining things i saw the whole thing live or did they not put the OLD iraqi flag on him afterwards? and were the iraqis not try to bust the hell out of it and kissing our soldiers?

edit:: i forgot to add the fact that they cheered when the American flag went up, and they cheered even louder when the old Iraqi flag went up.

Haha, maybe next they'll call it "United Iraq" or something.

I think my nude body should be the new symbol of freedom. Naked pictures of me everywhere. Doesn't get any better than that my friends.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Silvercord
I think my nude body should be the new symbol of freedom. Naked pictures of me everywhere. Doesn't get any better than that my friends.

---

Okay, post your picture on a poll, we'll all vote.

Why USA in Iraq?

this looks real official.....

marines just dont shoot peaceful protestors...unless they are under attack...they'd be court marshalled, its called Rules Of Engagement, look that up w/all this free time you have finding these anti american "real" stories from iraq

>>.unless they are under attack
So they are under attack by

>>they'd be court marshalled
What your gov do, doesn't matter. Court marshalle if Bush wants, defination covers. That is not for Iraqies for US.

Lack of gray matter, you have to be little more old or you are a hypocrite.

No but they do make mistakes and then the 'official' line covers it up.

Take the bombing of the TV station Al Jazera in Afghanistan and in Iraq.
Why was a purely civilian instalation bombed in both conflicts?
Official line: because it met with government officials and sent transmissions out (as most TV stations tend to do if they want to report)

Unofficial reason: Because the US disagrees with what it has to say and would prefer only the US propaganda to be circulated (ie US and British POW's were executed by Iraqiis, the Medina division has surrended)

Or take the seven civilans killed at a checkpoint.

Official line is that:
there were warning shots fired,
then the cars engine was shot,
then as a last resort the car was 'stopped'.

the embedded reporter saw it differently.

Note this source, credible enough DP?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Mar31.html

" "Cease fire!" Johnson yelled over the radio. Then, as he peered into his binoculars from the intersection on Highway 9, he roared at the platoon leader, "You just [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!""

sorry i am a man of reason and "lack grey matter" and cant compete w/you well informed people

my point is simply this, if youre in combat, you hear of suicide bombers blowing themselves up at checkpoints and you feel threated, im not going to give someone 10 chances...if i fire a warning shot and people are still roaring their car upon me, i will open fire, just like the "peaceful" protestors, the 1st molotov cocktail that comes my way gets a bullet back at em.

>>Unofficial reason: Because the US disagrees with what it has to say and would prefer only the US propaganda to be circulated (ie US and British POW's were executed by Iraqiis, the Medina division has surrended)

[sarcasm]exactly[/sarcasm]
i would say because they were flat out lying...did you not hear the iraqi defense minister "oh, we took the airport back from the US forces and drove the forces back, we control the area now"
this was an hour or 2 after the US said they drove everyone back to central Baghdad. everyone's throwing propaganda ITS WAR!!! HELLO??!! thats what happens in war your country makes propaganda to out-propaganda the other guy, not saying its right, its just how it works...

the more important matter is that he pulled that image off of aljazeera's website. That says it all to me. Every headline is anti-US. Go to the site if you wish. http://english.aljazeera.net or if you speak arabic http://www.aljazeera.net

On either you will see hateful tirades from terribly spiteful people.

as far as families getting shredded. if my country was in the position Iraq was in right now I would make damn sure not to drive my car quickly in the direction of American troops. I've seen plenty of this, but quite frankly Arabs created that environment by continuing suicide attack tactics. I would have shot the b*stards myself. How often do you have to be told to keep your distance?

i found this picture, pure truth right here

My point was on HOW the event was reported. How the media accepts the official line without question. I understand the difficult situation the troops are in and was not criticising their actions.

But they can only do their job properly if given the right tools and information.

>>as far as families getting shredded. if my country was in the position Iraq was in right now I would make damn sure not to drive my car quickly in the direction of American troops. I've seen plenty of this, but quite frankly Arabs created that environment by continuing suicide attack tactics. I would have shot the b*stards myself. How often do you have to be told to keep your distance?<<

It would be helpful and informative then if;

A. The coalition had more than 10 Arab intrepreters in the WHOLE of Iraq.

B. Had some stop signs in Arabic at these check points. Not exactly brain surgury to work out that these people may not read English.

from that Washington Post link
"To try to prevent a recurrence, Johnson ordered that signs be posted in Arabic to warn people to stop well short of the Bradleys guarding the eastern approach to the intersection. "

aljazeera has few friends except in the Arab world.
Sadam kicked them out, the US bombs them in two wars.

They would go away tomorrow, if only the big TV networks stopped paying for thier footage.

At least they report what the US media ignores. ie
"Although it is not legally binding, the House of Representatives last week approved an amendment to bar French, Russian, German and Syrian companies from gaining any reconstruction contracts in postwar Iraq."

dP monkey, You may claim yourself reasonable, because you have a mouth. But many of your posts do not justify your demand. More seems you are like a fundamentalist. World is trying to find Bush reasonable but not yet. Master key will kept in the right place at the right time. And than found the reason but not yet.

You are talking about rules of war, ..
In case of situation A, you would do X,
In case of situation B, you would do Y,
In case of situation C, you would do Z.
Didn't you get that you are far away from equal position to discuss about it. You are going in details of war... You forgot that world asked you question on this war..
Who told you to attack Iraq? and start this WAR.
Who justified that Iraq attacked your country?
Who authorized you to bring democracy in Iraq?
Who authorized you to kill Iraqis?
Who authorized you to destroy Iraq?

Here is the list of question-answer again:
what you do think ? You are the GOD?
You know everything?
You don't have to care others, if you are right or wrong?
You need not to justify?
You can do what ever you like?
What you say is true?
You can kill people, not only 1, 2, 3, also hundreds, thousands, millions?
You can occupy my country?
You know what is good/bad for me/my country/my family?
You will tell me what to do for me?
You are the authority to give the definition of freedom?
Did I ask you to free my country?
You have the right to have nuke because you need to kill people because you are GOD?
You will free my country and govern and play &amp; drink my resources, if necessary will kill me again and I will smile at you because you are GOD?

>>Who told you to attack Iraq? and start this WAR.
Saddam, when after 12 years we got tired of putting up w/him giving us the run around w/inspections.

>>Who justified that Iraq attacked your country?
No one said Iraq attacked our country?...did they?

>>Who authorized you to bring democracy in Iraq?
you got me there, but who authorized Saddam to personally overthrow the Iraqi government and become a tyrant?

>>Who authorized you to kill Iraqis?
the iraqi's that pointed ak47's at our troops

>>Who authorized you to destroy Iraq?
i dont think we are destroying the coutnry, you just seem to think america is out to get you for some reason...we arent


>>>what you do think ? You are the GOD? You know everything? You don't have to care others, if you are right or wrong? You need not to justify?
You can do what ever you like? What you say is true? You can kill people, not only 1, 2, 3, also hundreds, thousands, millions? You can occupy my country? You know what is good/bad for me/my country/my family? You will tell me what to do for me? You are the authority to give the definition of freedom? Did I ask you to free my country? You have the right to have nuke because you need to kill people because you are GOD? You will free my country and govern and play & drink my resources, if necessary will kill me again and I will smile at you because you are GOD?

i think we've answered all of these questions, dont be ........ed at me becuase im giving logical reasonable answers...im not reasonable because i have a mouth, im reasonable because i think, i use the grey matter i have.....you my friend just dont listen, everything eveyone here has said you've ignored claiming youre right, we're wrong because we think we're GOD...you arent even from iraq, so dont "govern my country" me. i think before you post again, you should really think about what you are saying because it gets more vauge every time you post.


EDIT: define rules of war?
i would think anyone w/half a brain would defend themself if they felt threatened.

>>>dP monkey, You may claim yourself reasonable, because you have a mouth. But many of your posts do not justify your demand. More seems you are like a fundamentalist. World is trying to find Bush reasonable but not yet.

i think before you post again, you should really think about what you are saying because it gets more UNREASONABLE every time you post.

Because you haven't have the total idea what you are discussing about.

are you running out of ideas....this has went from a reasonable discussion about the war to a flame war, i know what im talking about, you choose not to believe it.....

...once again....im done.....get over it, move on, there is more to life than some dumb munky on a message board

>>but who authorized Saddam to personally overthrow the Iraqi government and become a tyrant?

Actually he was elected because he organised the return of Iraqs' oil to the Iraqi people in the '70s. Before that he was vice president.

[j/k]
I bet GWB would love to get the 99.9% vote he got in the last election rather than the 25% of the population that voted for GWB.
[/j/k]

>>when after 12 years we got tired of putting up w/him giving us the run around w/inspections.

The inspectors were withdrawn by Butler after the US informed him it was going to bomb Iraq (Desert FOX)
As Iraq pointed out the US was using the UNSCOM inspectors to spy on Iraq.
Not surprising that they were not allowed to return.

When they did Iraq was complying (admitedly only as little as they could get away with) but the US could not wait for the UNSCOM inspectors to finish and they again were withdraw after US informing them the bombs were coming.

So far the UNSCOM inspectors have destroyed 9 times more WMD than the wars.



Its all a matter of if you get all your information from the US media or look for a balanced view elsewhere.

Try this for a then and now
http://www.fair.org/extra/0210/inspectors.html

thats the thing though, who are you supposed to trust, cant trust the US because we lie, cant trust the arabs because they lie.....so am i just supposed to sit here w/my thumb up my ass forever? i honestly try to be as objective as i can when it comes to the news but it seems the daily show is more 'credible' than anyone else....

....and why not spy on iraq, thats what the inspections were doing, trying to find hidden weapons, if you spy, you gain more intel on where those weapons might be, or even if they exist....

im not advocating this war, im not saying its right, i just think that iraq has been acting like they are hiding something...i really didnt want this to turn into a flame war.

>>novacain,
Yeah.. we know all of them. I just again and again pointed him that he is not well aware of all those facts. He needs more to learn. Or he is just fighting against himself.

This is the only issue (Attack in Iraq) of USA, which is pretty clear to me to understand. It lead me to start to think about middle east issue and US involvement.

May be I will not be able to answer all questions instantly but this is the beginning of the start to believe. Confidence will grow up after learning more and more and of course future is there...

You know? this is the situation, the first time for me, I feel that anyone agree with this attack in Iraq will not be able to win morally with me.

Quote:

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Originally posted by dP munky
thats the thing though, who are you supposed to trust, cant trust the US because we lie, cant trust the arabs because they lie.....so am i just supposed to sit here w/my thumb up my ass forever? i honestly try to be as objective as i can when it comes to the news but it seems the daily show is more 'credible' than anyone else....

....and why not spy on iraq, thats what the inspections were doing, trying to find hidden weapons, if you spy, you gain more intel on where those weapons might be, or even if they exist....

im not advocating this war, im not saying its right, i just think that iraq has been acting like they are hiding something...i really didnt want this to turn into a flame war.

---

Again... look at you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are just like a born-blind child. You are just in a jar, you can't be sure about the shape and size of the jar unless you are out of if, theoretically or physically. You still don't know that the earth is round and it moves around the sun


>>to sit here w/my thumb up my ass forever?

I noted this type words earlier.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dP munky
nows the part where you call me the white devil .......... american satan pig right?

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by zahid
See.. here we don't use that f.. word. But I have observed through this board and movie.. online chat.. Except books, news papers, articles.. use of this word is very common among you people. I guess age is another reason.
Your answer: No, I can watch CNN, BBC, as well as other TV channels, News papers, Radios.. .. and other sources.. specially online. There are millions of people over there who is agains the WAR many of them are protesting, many of them are not, there could be lots of reasons.

---

Is that the culture of you guys over there?

Quote:

---

among you people

---

I hate that, a much better choice of words could have been found :mad:

Anyway, yes the use of the work .......... is somewhat regular over here. So what? Different cultures have different slang. Plain and simple.

I don't understand the question behind "Is that the culture of you guys over there?" though. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't find a question about culture in your post. :confused:

The "news" portion of our culture for people under the age of about 60 is pretty weak over here. I'm sure there's the random 20 or 30 year old that is very well informed and watches a lot of CNN, MSNBC, etc... but even as infomative as news programs such as those may be, they are still moved not by what is relevant but instead by what the people "want" to hear in order to best their ratings. But then again ALL news is slanted in one way or another, as it is written by a person with their own personal views and opinions.

The few pages of this thread that I've actually read seems to be a lot bickering. Everybody is always right in their opinion, and it's very hard to be moved either way.

Pro-USA, Pro-war side of things: The Iraqi people celebrate the freedom they have gained by tearing down statues of their former leader. The country will rebuild itself through the help of USA to be stronger and better than ever before. They finally have the freedom to express their views as they want about the prior leadership without worry of harm to themeselves or their family. Etc...

Anti-USA, anit-war side of things: The Iraqi people are dieing by USA's despicable acts of bombing and shooting civilians. The people in turn act out in riots, getting killed for their views by the American soldiers. USA is only there for the oil :rolleyes:

Doesn't matter which side you pick, there's arguments for both. I'm pro-war, and for what I believe is good reasons. Honestly though, I'd be happy if my country just left it's nose out of other people bussiness. I want to see that happen, and then see just how long untill it takes other countries to blame up for not being involved :rolleyes:.

Your voice: seems you love to be reasonable .. .. .. I can smell the tone of your voice.

>>Anyway, yes the use of the work .......... is somewhat regular over here. So what? Different cultures have different slang. Plain and simple.

They are not only slangs, those type of bad words are used to hurt someone and by majority the uneducated, uncultured people here in Bangladesh. Educated, gentle guys never use. Never think of in public place. So, I thought those words were used to hurt me.
Anyway.. leave it.

Look at the sun everyone... so bright.
The photographs tell the story...

zahid, that photo was likely taken later in the day after crowds had dispersed. I, like many others saw the footage live. it was nothing like that. chalk another one up to anti-american slant.

Confess by Zahid:
As I have seen, CNN, BBC had never covered the area from this angle, and in a total. I guess you did not visit the link. What about the other part? Anyway, Don't take it as a proof, just start to find the truth.... This is the beginning. .. Once you will find the truth .. . truth is so bright. we can separate from others. You will find more clue in future when you know the truth, and find differences when you don't. We have to remember that as earth is getting older, we are going more complex, and among us few are hiding truth, few are searching truth, few believe what other say, few avoid truth.

I cannot give you the truth, you have to find yourself. I can point only for more options, as you can point me. I can check for other options.. but have to find myself. The fact must be one. If we differ so much to each other, that will make problem in future, when it will be more difficult to resolve.

I'm here for a long time. You all are almost friends. You know why I'm doing this? I never gave that time in my life on board. I can not accept that we have difference here on this issue. We are programmers and we must have very sharp logic, not politicians, investigators, .. ... even if this picture is found correct, does not proof all. But if you star to find options.. ... there is a chance always that you know the more accurate fact.