Thread: Would you vote for Bush again?

i think it's safe to say that OSR has some of the most contriversial opinions on the boards...but hey, you cant be mad at him for sticking up for his beliefs

> but hey, you cant be mad at him for sticking up for his beliefs

Most people will tell you I've got no problem with that at all. It's because he's a complete and utter fscktard when he does it that I hate him.

*Vote for Bush*

The UN is the democratic assembly of the world. When the US president tells the UN that they must agree with him or be irrelevent, GWB is telling the rest of the world that our opinion is irrelevent.

If GWB has no respect for our opinion why should we help the US, now or in the future?


It is no secret now that the US and UK were major suppliers of the WMD to Iraq and Sadam. It has just emerged that UK tax payers spent US$ billions supplying Sadam with WMD (inc a chemical weapons plant used to produce the gases used on Iranians and Iraqis)

Should the US have sold Sadam WMD in over 700 shipments during the late 1980's?
OK. It did not know what he was going to do with them. (though they had a good idea given what they were selling)

Did it stop when Sadam used them on Iran or Iraqi Kurds?
No. The germs ect kept rolling in for the next two years.

OK. Prahaps it was a honest mistake.


My objection is that the US / UK does not learn from these mistakes and continues to sell these weapons to anyone with a $.

For example it is now trying to bribe Turkey with US$6 billion to allow US troops launch an invasion from Turkey.

What will these $ be in? More weapons.

Its not like its peaceful in Turkey.

Both Greece and Turkey claim Cyprus, more than a third of which has been occupied by Turkish forces since 1974, and the two countries have clashed hundreds of times in the last 25 years.

Though barred by Congress from selling offensive weapons to Cyprus, in 1997 the U.S. sold (or allowed American corporations to sell) more than $270 million worth of weapons to Greece and nearly $750 million worth to Turkey.

As to obeying the rules of the UN (which Iraq being in violation of is the trigger for this war), read this page on the US v Nicaragua in 1984. It clearly shows how the US considered itself above the rules of International Justice Court and the UN.

http://www.headnorth.com/clients/mattj/casestudy.htm

Not to mention the US support for Israel (which is in violation of UN resloutions for 35 years).

howdy,
all very valid points novacain.
this one is rather frustrating to a large number of Americans

Not to mention the US support for Israel (which is in violation of UN resloutions for 35 years).

M.R.

i dont get it, we cancel aid w/Nicaragua and help oppose the new government so they take us to UN and ...??? WTF?? i dont get your point, and how are we in breach by helping israel wheres the oh so helpful link to that site

His point was that the US feels itself above the UN, as evident in the US ignoring the resolutions calling for the US to compensate Nicaragua

It is rather interesting how the US wants Iraq to comply with UN resolutions and uses its non-compliance as a reason for war, yet the US ignores any resolutions it doesnt like. The US should voluntarily comply with decisions against it, if only to set an example for other countries to follow and especially if it plans on using UN resolutions as reasons for war

The UN is shyt jsut let bush put a rocket thru saddams head

Originally posted by *ClownPimp*
It is rather interesting how the US wants Iraq to comply with UN resolutions and uses its non-compliance as a reason for war, yet the US ignores any resolutions it doesnt like. The US should voluntarily comply with decisions against it, if only to set an example for other countries to follow and especially if it plans on using UN resolutions as reasons for war

...ok, i think i understand what youre saying, how come none of this is made public, i mean, obviously it IS public, but how come all these anti war people dont bring up this point because it is a good point, how hypocritical of us to say comply or we'll bomb you and overthrow you when at the same time we're saying to Nicaragua "ah, we dont have to comply we're the US" ???

i dont think most people are aware of some of the stuff that we've done and then tell other countries not to do or else we'll overthrow you?

[edit] by the way, what is the resolution that says we cant support israel, im kinda interested in reading up on that issue

>>The US should voluntarily comply with decisions against it, if only to set an example for other countries to follow and especially if it plans on using UN resolutions as reasons for war

Exactly.

If we ever want to become a peaceful world free from war (and WMD) then we ALL have to abide by the rules. Not just the when it suits our agendas.


>>we cancel aid w/Nicaragua and help oppose the new government so they take us to UN and

And mined their harbours, provided arms to the rebel faction and supported drug running. Nothing to do with the aid.

A "covert programme of backing Nicaraguan opponents" means "running guns, drugs to and from the US to Nicaragua". Search for 'Iran contra' or 'Operation TIPPED KETTLE' or 'Eugene Hasenfus' on google.

Basically the guns came from Israel (confiscated from the PLO) and were sent in secret to the Nicaraguan rebels using money Pres Regan got from Saudi Arabia. As the money ran out the operation (lasting 5 years) was financed by drugs. Lt Col Oliver North took the fall as Pres Regan could not remember anything about it.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm

>>what is the resolution that says we cant support israel

Israel is in violation of UNSCR 242 and 338 (anong others).

Seems strange that 1/3 of US aid goes to the 16 richest country in the world. Not to mention that private donations to Israel are tax deductable.

This is realy just a subsidy to US arms exporters as most aid is spent on arms. This creates a demand in other Middle East countries for arms. Israel actually tried to slow the arms race in the Middle East in 1992 but the US rejected the idea.

>>but how come all these anti war people dont bring up this point because it is a good point

Because the media wants the war. great ratings.
The arms manufactures want the war (obviously).
GWB can't go to the next election with SH in power or he will look weak.

All in all, because they don't want you to know.

nova,

Im sorry, but i have to say this

you're an idiot.
now my apology... i'm sorry i was a little ........ed, i feel better now.
and plus now you dont have to listen to a 3 page rant.

on a more serious note,
You are blinded by you ignorance and incredible hate for the U.S. you are and have been extremely anti-american since i can remember.

please explain to me why do you hate the U.S. so much, please share.

no propaganda no bull$$$$, don't give me the yearbook answer either, lay it out.

howdy,
i'll take a stab at it.

ultralibral

M.R.

Yeah, NOVACAIN quit bringing up old crap... remember that there was such a thing as a COLD WAR and the BS you keep quoting is all from that era and your govt.s were just as complicit in it's acts as the US.

Your arguments make no sense when a power like the SOVIET UNION comes into south america to make trouble the US is not allowed to play defense?? Maybe we should all look into the actions of the Australians and what they did in EAST TIMOR and INDONESIA. Maybe u don't recall that they supported evil regimes that kidnapped and murdered to maintain stability...
All of the western powers played just as dirty as the SOVIETS and I'm glad they did, b/c we won.

Many historians argue that after the COLD WAR and the fall of the soviet union that a new measure of history should begin - a new era. It's unfair to tie too closely that past to the new post cold war era as it is a new game and a new world with new evils.

In many ways the problems we see today are the result of the collapse of communism and the soviet union...

---North Korea used to get all it's oil and supplies from the soviets for FREE - not anymore and that is why they are trying to bribe the world now as they are on the verge of collapse.
---Saddam a stalinist soviet client state, was UNRESTRAINED after the fall of the soviets, he no longer had a force to dictate his actions or ppl to listen to.
---Most of the AFRICAN nations at war today were client or supported states by the soviets, and the civil wars have spilled over to everywhere on that continent turning that region into one big MESS.

U try to blame the US for the worlds problems u r blind as SH** as the answer is the collapse of an evil system and an evil power and it is the MESS they left in their wake that we are cleaning up today - that includes IRAQ.

Why is it that some Americans want to silence debate?
(although I enjoy it when the personal attacks start, as it shows that you have no factual basis to debate me upon)


>> You are blinded by you ignorance

ignorance::lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified

Sorry I thought I was well informed. What fact have I got wrong?

Or is my interpretation that the US will act against UN resolutions incorrect?


>> It's unfair to tie too closely that past to the new post cold war era as it is a new game and a new world with new evils.

So pointing out that the US is making the same mistakes it made then is wrong?
Is it too much to expect the US to live up to the ideals it demands the rest of the world live up to?

>>Saddam a stalinist soviet client state
Check your facts, actually SH was aided by the US as he was both anti Communist and non Muslim.

>>Australians and what they did in EAST TIMOR and INDONESIA

Actually it is how we are ripping off the East Timorese now over the Sunlight Oil fields by ignoring the UN costal waters charter.
It was Indonesia v Australia in East Timor.

What exactly did we do in Indonesia?

Why don't you pick on how we treated OUR indigenous peoples?
Hey up until the late 50's they were considered flauna.

What is the UN??? Is it the final say in things? Obviously not, in fact if it were for the UN the US would not be allowed to go in Afghanistan, Tawain would not be free of CHINA repression and threat, KOSOVO would still be being ethnically cleansed, the BOSNIAN war would still be going on.

SOMALIA is still in dire straits and it was the UN who commanded that operation and then LEFT after america did.

HAITI was a UN operation that FAILED.

And the list continues, the UN has a sorry ass record on taking action - it just doesn't - it is as expected of a body of DEBATERS and many nations with different interests and a reluctance to PAY for the large social projects they try to force on the world.

ASK the PPL of Africa nations if they appreciate the UN when it says that they must not use ENGINEERED CROPS b/c the UN hasn't decided on whether it's a good thing since environmentalists have UNDUE influence over this part of UN policy. They instead have "ORGANIC FARMING" projects that use 2 - 3 times the land and produce half the produce - while elitists pat themselves on the back for implementing their IDEALS - ppl starve.

THE US has the power to make the UN irrelevant as it is the US who pays a large amount of the bills, it is the US who leads in supporting the resolutions, it is the US who leads in ENFORCING the sancitions and resolutions and it is the US who who gives credence and relevance to the actions of the UN as it is one of the only members who backs up the UN's mandates with actual money and FORCE.

Maybe the UN should ask RUSSIA, CHINA, or FRANCE - the other permanent members to belly up and start commiting forces, money, and a GODDAMN backbone to support UN actions... Oh, wait none of these countries do a damn thing - they sit back and let the US take the lead and take on the debt to help the world. Maybe the US should become like these other members and do the absolute minimum - I hope we do as we DONT need the UN. U might try to argue that FRANCE does commit peace keepers to the UN but so does a host of other countries including PAKISTAN and ANGOLA as well as others - so it aint much, especially for a permanent member.