to Germany and other non-USA nations

**Vber** · 01-21-2003

Code:

Hitler is a very bad person, who had exploited the bad conditions of the people and made usage of very bad and horrible ruling

I think exactly like you...

**zahid** · 01-22-2003

New Hitlers are there as they were in this world with new arms, new techs, new styles.

ohh.. Japanese will never be able to forget. And they should not. Big monster is accompanied by little monsters.

**nvoigt** · 01-22-2003

Gades summed it up quite nicely.

Vergangenbeitsbewaeltigung:
The sum total of difficulties a nation encounters in struggling to come to terms with a dodgy past. Who but the Germans would have a word for it?

In Germany, in contrast to America, every man or woman old enough has participated in the war in one way or the other. As a member of the armed forces, as a civilian victim of the airraids or as a victim of Hitlers crimes. The last years of WWII happend to take place right in Germany. If you were alive and German, you simply couldn't not be affected by the war. For older people, memories are strong. Some of them will not be able to ride elevators or subway trains, because the closed space and wooshing sound reminds them too much of airraid sirens and bomb shelters. The war is present in private stories and public display. My Grandparents met when my Grandpa's 88 Anti-Aircraft gun was placed in my Grandma's garden. When you visit Hannovers Townhall, there are 8 dioramas of Hannover from becoming a city to the present. The one you notice first looks as if it had been turned upside down, smashed into the ground and turned to be visible again. It's Hannover in 1945 after the allied bombing raids. It's not possible to meet someone unaffected by the war, as I imagine it would be possible in the US. Even if you were not drafted as early as by the age of 12 when Hitlers Reich crumbled, you still had to fear for your own life every time the sirens came up.

Education varies, but in general this stuff happens to be in history classes at least twice. There are documentaries, mostly b/w original film with a background comment. I have 20 channels and I guess I could find you a documentary on WWII any day after 20:00. Hitler's Generals, Hitler's Women, Hitler's Henchmen, Stalingrad, Submarine Warfare, Africa, Rommel and so on. Same for the war in the Pacific. Must have been some anniversary of Stalingrad, I saw some b/w minutes of soldiers dying and Gen. Fm. Paulus when I was channel surfing yesterday.

Some things have changed dramatically after the war. For example, sayings that were used without thinking about them were dropped. We still know the meaning but wouldn't use them, as this could indicate that the user might be a Nazi. And no one would like to leave a shadow of doubt about no being one. Some years ago, an american girl I chatted with about prices said: "Don't be so jewish with your money". I did know what she meant, but I was mortified. You simply don't say this in Germany. For your social standing it would have been better to do a public strip on the table. At least you could claim you were drunk.

Showing symbols of Hitlers idealogy is forbidden. Actually, there is a law that allows the police to confiscate anything they think might serve someone as a Nazi symbol. If they see you with a football and this football might repesent some Nazi stuff to you, any policeman can destroy it. Pretty weird passing a law that allows policemen to guess what you think about items. But I have never seen it enforced without reason anyway.

I guess you will find germans to be quite well educated when it comes to WWII. Where else in the world would a visit to a real concentration camp be part of a history class ?

**rick barclay** · 01-22-2003

Originally posted by hk_mp5kpdw
In the same vein as this, I recently saw something on TV (Discovery/History Channel?) that said that many of the Iraqi's believe they won the Gulf War because Saddam told his people that they won. With near total control of the media would they even be able to doubt what they were told by him?

Yes. And do you know that if you travel to Syria and look for a
book on the whys, wherefores, and accounts of the Six Day War with Israel, you will wil find nary a one, zilch, nothing.

**rick barclay** · 01-22-2003

Originally posted by Clyde
"like they were justified for Pearl Harbor "

As far as i'm aware the Japanese were under the impression that the US already knew they were at war when they attacked pearl harbour.

That's because the Japanese were very bad at telling time. They
had arranged for their ambassador to Washington to deliver their
declaration of war at the precise time the attack was beginning,
but somehow the letter wasn't delivered until after the attack
had started. Not sure how late they were but I'm sure it's
searchable on Google.

**rick barclay** · 01-22-2003

Contemporary Germans might take solace in the fact that they
now realize what monsters the Nazis were, but they will
never escape the historical facts that thier forebears recieved
Hitler like the coming of a messiah. And Hitler's philosophy of
Aryan beliefs is rooted in ancient German history going back to
the times of Rome.

**Shiro** · 01-22-2003

>Where else in the world would a visit to a real concentration
>camp be part of a history class

In the Netherlands visits to the camp Westerbork and the house of Anne Frank are traditionals. Every year there in the Netherlands there is a commemoration to remember the WWII and relate it to the current situations in the world. To remember people who died for their freedom in WWII and to remember people who have died after WWII in their fights for freedom.

In the higher classes children go to places in Germany and Poland to visit such historical places, like Auschwitz.

Also in the city where I live, like many Dutch cities, there is a monument remembering of those who died in the WWII. Each year a lot of people go there to remember the day the Canedians got here to free our city. We also go there at the national commemoration day, to remember our country was freed.

I guess last year it was the first time in the Netherlands we invited Germans to be present at the commemoration at camp Westerbork, which is a camp where Dutch people, mainly Jewish, were send to before they were send to German camps. In my opinion it is a good thing that Germans can be present at such events here. It promotes a better understanding between the Germans and Dutch, which is necessary because still there are people, young and old, who don't like the Germans very much.

Many years after WWII our current queen decided to marry a German prince. This lead to a lot of commotion, there was a lot of resistance, but this German prince became one of the most popular Germans in the Netherlands. He made a big contribution in bringing the Dutch and German closer.

**minesweeper** · 01-22-2003

>>Contemporary Germans might take solace in the fact that they
now realize what monsters the Nazis were, but they will
never escape the historical facts that thier forebears recieved
Hitler like the coming of a messiah.<<

Of course they did. It was our rediculous reparations plan that meant Germany was to be subjected to dire poverty forever more. Put yourself in that situation. No matter how hard you work you will never be able to improve the diabolical lifestyle that someone else has put upon you. Then someone strong comes along and offers you a way out. Of course you would take a chance with them. There was no way the average German could have forseen what Hitler was planning and by the time they could, it was too late. You don't argue with the Gestapo. When a society of people are downtrodden with no way out it is very easy to brainwash them.

>>Hitler's philosophy of
Aryan beliefs is rooted in ancient German history going back to
the times of Rome.<<

English history shows that we destroyed and pillaged our way to governing a quarter of the world's inhabited surface. Does that make contemporary Brits like me likeminded tyrants?

**SMurf** · 01-22-2003

Originally posted by minesweeper
English history shows that we destroyed and pillaged our way to governing a quarter of the world's inhabited surface. Does that make contemporary Brits like me likeminded tyrants?

Not exactly. British doctrine was essentially to turn a world full of "savages" into "civilised people". Yes, we did kill quite a few in the process, but things improved and many countries are grateful for British influence/aid.

Also, rather than beating difficult people round the head with our entire armed forces, we instead "lost" wars and set up strong trade links instead (The US being a good example of this). With the exception of the world wars, we knew a lost cause when we saw one.

This didn't apply to France, however, until quite recently. Not sure it does even now...

**salvelinus** · 01-22-2003

Oh, this discussion of national pride/shame/responsibility is upsetting me mightily! Can't we close this thread? Where are those padlocking mods when we need them?

**SMurf** · 01-22-2003

They're chasing the void main()ers, naturally. If you start swearing and flaming all over the place, then they'll close the thread.

**novacain** · 01-22-2003

>> my fiance's grandma is German, and she lives in Germany. Her husband fought with them, as he had to. Last year, she found in her basement an old picture of Hitler, from the previous owner of the house.<<

My great grand parents moved from Germany to England between the world wars. They changed their name to Johnson. When WW2 started my grandmother burned the family heirloom, a bible with family tree in it in case it was used to intern them.

>>Hitler's philosophy of
Aryan beliefs is rooted in ancient German history going back to
the times of Rome.<<

Racism was / is not confined to any country. It was more to do with the times (and hopefully time and effort will eradicate it). In the British atomic tests in Maralinga and Woomera, Aboriginal casualties were recorded under 'flauna' as they were not considered to be human.

Interview with Harold Stewart (When the War came to Australia documentary)
"Harold Stewart enlisted as an 18 year old in Warwick Queensland. He joined because his mates were joining the Army. As an Aborigine, he didn't experience any discrimination when he joined. In combat situations, there was no prejudice, when in camp he was made to feel "inferior" to some degree. He recounts episodes of prejudice in civilian life, for example going to church in Warwick. Aborigines were grouped together as a drunk and untrustworthy race, which was a gross generalisation. He was trained as an artillery gunner and sent to Magnetic Island, Queensland. He mentions the American troops'relations between black and white servicemen - they had divided camps between Negroes and whites, they didn't mix and there was tension and even killings. "

**rick barclay** · 01-23-2003

>Racism was / is not confined to any country. It was more to do with the times (and hopefully time and effort will eradicate it). In the British atomic tests in Maralinga and Woomera, Aboriginal casualties were recorded under 'flauna' as they were not considered to be human.<

Actually, Aryanism didn't originate with any racist ideal. Hitler's
idea of Aryanism added racism to the mix. The early Arians
were followers of a Christian philosopher of the same name
who espoused certain principles concerning the essence of
Jesus Christ and the concept of the Father, Son, and Holy
Ghost. The Arians were in direct conflict with another group called
Athaniasians, over these same principles. Eventually, the Athanasians held sway and the Arians were branded heretics
by the Holy Roman Church before Rome fell. But through some
ironic twist of fate, one of the many different hordes Germanic
tribes that gained control of Rome embraced the Arian doctrine
and forced it on all its subjects, Roamn and otherwise. These
German warriors must have been mythical-like figures to
Hitler and his troupe, and he incorporated them into his
own German nationalist thinking.

This is really a half-assed explanation or Arianism, which is
an extremely complicated subject that figures prominently
in the history of the Catholic Church, but I have no references
with me, and even if I did it would take many pages to half-
decently explain why Arianism and Athanisianism are so
important to Western civilization. Sorry if I impress you as a
pedantic schmuck. Just trying to make a point.