Thread: Follow Iraq, North Korea trying to mess the World.

Im really undecided on the issues about iraq and north korea, but I do have a few comments and questions.

Regarding using the fact that Iraq has ignored UN resolutions for the past X years as a reason for war:
UN resolutions are not binding to any country. The UN was/is not meant to be a police force for the world. A country has to agree to be under the jurisdiction of the UN and can pull-out at any time (with a few short-term consequences, like losing the ability to vote). The US itself once pulled out of the jurisdiction of the UN when they passed a resolution that they didnt like (I forget the circumstances of the resolution). So Iraq has every right to ignore UN resolutions they dont agree with, esp. since they arent even a part of the UN.

Regarding using Iraq the fact that Saddam is a dictator and he massacres innocent civilians, etc:
Okay... but if thats enough of a reason, why didnt the US intervene in the massacres in Rwanda? Because Rwanda has no strategic interest to the US. Why did the US intervene in Kosovo? Because a destabilizing of parts of Europe could impact the world economy and hence the US economy.

It is well-known that presidents put a moral spin on wars to rally support for them, when in many cases they are just hiding their true motives which by themselves might not garner as much support. Im just wondering what the ulterior motive for this war is.

Also, by that criteria the list of next-in-line-for-oustings would be quite long. I doubt the US plans on taking on all of those countries in the near future, which again leads me to believe there is an ulterior motive for singling out Iraq.

Preventing the proliferation of chemical/bio/nuclear weapons:
Okay... but what gives the US the authority to oust leaders who build these weapons?

>>> Whitness the power of indocrination.

Indeed. I was trying to get one of the members to actually stop and think for himself, but then along came OSR sounding off, and voila, it was not neccsary to think about anything, he could just trot out the indoctrinated propoganda again as he had been doing earlier.

It's such a shame, these people are obviously intelligent, but refuse to use their intellect. They don't question things.

>> if (Saddam and Kim Jong Ill do harmful things to the World > their contribute to stabilization, peace for the World)then
Remove their regime by any means.
else
Let them join with us to keep the World as whole peace
end if


and what

if (Bush does harmful things to world peace > his contribution to stabilization & peace for the World)
then
Remove his regime by any means.
else
Let America join the rest of the world to keep the World as whole peace
end if



>> Regarding using Iraq the fact that Saddam is a dictator and he massacres innocent civilians

If you do a little research on the matter, and not blindly follow the propaganda that the American media is propagating, you'll see it isn't really that bad i.e. "the massacres innocent civilians" part. Saddam is not some external person. He is also from Iraq, head of the Iraqi Army. If he were really that cruel and harsh, the army would've just thrown him away. The army also consists of Iraqi people, including the Kurds. There are examples of some very harsh military dictators in the recent world history, who were dethrowned by their own fellow Generals (this has happened atleast twice in Pakistan).

BTW, still it's not that I like or admire Saddam or anything. He is a DICTATOR, good or bad, doesn't really matter. But, this doesn't give US the right to take any action against him. Only, the UN may jointly decide what to do, keeping in mind that a military action could result in the lives of thousands of innocent civilians and devastation of major assets of the country.

Zeesham:

You talk about the propaganda the US sticks out, and yes, they do, but can you not see, that you are trotting out the same old anti-US propoganda that the west hears all day every day from hundreds of sources around the planet?

Think man.

Believe half or less of whatever you hear from whatever source.

American media propaganda? Wow.

Zeeshan, you have the most skewed logic & thoughts. I think you need to worry about your own countries propaganda, as you seem to be HEAVILY affected by it.

If he [Saddam] were really that cruel and harsh, the army would've just thrown him away.

ROFL. They are too AFRAID to "throw him away." Maybe you should read up on Saddam and some of the things he has done, including his two insane sons.

If anyone is affect by propaganda, it is you.



spoon_

Originally posted by *ClownPimp*
Im really undecided on the issues about iraq and north korea, but I do have a few comments and questions.

Regarding using the fact that Iraq has ignored UN resolutions for the past X years as a reason for war:
UN resolutions are not binding to any country. The UN was/is not meant to be a police force for the world. A country has to agree to be under the jurisdiction of the UN and can pull-out at any time (with a few short-term consequences, like losing the ability to vote). The US itself once pulled out of the jurisdiction of the UN when they passed a resolution that they didnt like (I forget the circumstances of the resolution). So Iraq has every right to ignore UN resolutions they dont agree with, esp. since they arent even a part of the UN.

Right, but if the 5 permanent members of the U.N. vote yes on resolutions with Iraq and Iraq wants to keep war at bay, they should comply. Oh wait, they should have complied 11 years ago. They have the right to ignore the resolutions? So they have the right to ignore what the world wants? Ok then, then they'll just get a few more hundred thousand pounds of bombs up their asses. People here on this board need to realize that Iraq has asked for EVERYTHING they have received.

spoon_

For those of you who don't think Sadam and his powerful regime should be ousted. Read about the 'The Anfal Campaign Against the Kurds'. Here's a quick excerpt from the Introduction of the report by a group called Human Rights Watch. This is based on documents taken from Iraq by the Kurds.

The campaigns of 1987-1989 were characterized by the following gross violations of human rights:

· mass summary executions and mass disappearance of many tens of thousands of non-combatants, including large numbers of women and children, and sometimes the entire population of villages;

· the widespread use of chemical weapons, including mustard gas and the nerve agent GB, or Sarin, against the town of Halabja as well as dozens of Kurdish villages, killing many thousands of people, mainly women and children;

· the wholesale destruction of some 2,000 villages, which are described in government documents as having been "burned," "destroyed," "demolished" and "purified," as well as at least a dozen larger towns and administrative centers (nahyas and qadhas);

· the wholesale destruction of civilian objects by Army engineers, including all schools, mosques, wells and other non-residential structures in the targeted villages, and a number of electricity substations;

· looting of civilian property and farm animals on a vast scale by army troops and pro-government militia;

· arbitrary arrest of all villagers captured in designated "prohibited areas" (manateq al-mahdoureh), despite the fact that these were their own homes and lands;

· arbitrary jailing and warehousing for months, in conditions of extreme deprivation, of tens of thousands of women, children and elderly people, without judicial order or any cause other than their presumed sympathies for the Kurdish opposition. Many hundreds of them were allowed to die of malnutrition and disease;

· forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of villagers upon the demolition of their homes, their release from jail or return from exile; these civilians were trucked into areas of Kurdistan far from their homes and dumped there by the army with only minimal governmental compensation or none at all for their destroyed property, or any provision for relief, housing, clothing or food, and forbidden to return to their villages of origin on pain of death. In these conditions, many died within a year of their forced displacement;

· destruction of the rural Kurdish economy and infrastructure.

Like Nazi Germany, the Iraqi regime concealed its actions in euphemisms. Where Nazi officials spoke of "executive measures," "special actions" and "resettlement in the east," Ba'athist bureaucrats spoke of "collective measures," "return to the national ranks" and "resettlement in the south." But beneath the euphemisms, Iraq's crimes against the Kurds amount to genocide, the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.

I haven't read anymore than the introduction but plan on this evening. If you can read this and still think Sadam shouldn't be taken out of command then you are a sick and demented person.

spoon_

>>> American media propaganda? Wow.

Yes, believe it or not, the US is an enormous producer of the said stuff, true Zeesham is trotting out prop, but so are you.

I have advised Zeesham to think, I'm suggesting you do the same.

To everyone:

Every "side" has a group of people who's job in life is to produce "facts" that show that whatever their "side" is saying is right, and that the precipitated actions are justified.

People who just trot out rabid condemnations of the "other side" whatever the other side is, "because we are right" tend not to get listened too. They have obviously been suckered.

Originally posted by adrianxw
spoon_

>>> American media propaganda? Wow.

Yes, believe it or not, the US is an enormous producer of the said stuff, true Zeesham is trotting out prop, but so are you.

I didn't say American Media propaganda didn't exist. Zeeshan is over-exaggerating it.

Look at the overall opinion on this board.

Zeeshan proved himself inept and uninformed in his first post.

>>> Look at the overall opinion on this board.

... and look at the location of the majority of the posters...

Consider how it would look on a message board in Pakistan where almost every poster was anti west and you spoke out like you did.

Remember also, these inept "others" are at least trying to talk to us in a language that is not their own - why not try to argue your point in arabic, punjabi or urdu for example.

It's not my fault people from other countries want to argue this topic in their 2nd language like you implied. I know how hard it is to speak another language. I've tried. I comprehend peoples second language very well. Please point out where I misunderstood someone, thanks!

Like so many people on this board have said, we're going to war.
Like it or not. And many people, including me, believe its the right thing to do.

You, adrian, must also think and separate American Media Propaganda from American Media telling the American Public the facts.

I'm not going to discuss this propaganda B.S. anymore. Thats endless. What Saddam and his regime have done is certain and finite. 11 years of denial, etc. Read damonbrinkley's most recent post. He must be dealt with. The U.N. should have allowed Bush Senior to continue in the Persian Gulf War and take Saddam out, completely.

If Saddam is left alone his threat and his problems he brings to the table will get larger. Same thing with North Korea. North Korea scares me more than Saddam.

Everytime I post on this topic I seem to be repeating myselfs and the others on this topic. Please bring something new to the table or let it die.