Thread: God

  1. #436
    Christian
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    612
    And who makes the call? These people think they are religious. They go to church, they pray, they do all the little things you're supposed to do and none of the things you're not.
    Are you farmiler with the Canterbury Tales, or at least the prologe. The Parson and his brother the Plowman are the truly religious people.

    The Parson's and Plowmans introduction:
    THE PARSON
    There was a good man of religion, too,
    A country parson, poor, I warrant you;
    But rich he was in holy thought and work.
    He was a learned man also, a clerk,
    Who Christ's own gospel truly sought to preach;
    Devoutly his parishioners would he teach.
    Benign he was and wondrous diligent,
    Patient in adverse times and well content,
    As he was ofttimes proven; always blithe,
    He was right loath to curse to get a tithe,
    But rather would he give, in case of doubt,
    Unto those poor parishioners about,
    Part of his income, even of his goods.
    Enough with little, coloured all his moods.
    Wide was his parish, houses far asunder,
    But never did he fail, for rain or thunder,
    In sickness, or in sin, or any state,
    To visit to the farthest, small and great,
    Going afoot, and in his hand, a stave.
    This fine example to his flock he gave,
    That first he wrought and afterwards he taught;
    Out of the gospel then that text he caught,
    And this figure he added thereunto-
    That, if gold rust, what shall poor iron do?
    For if the priest be foul, in whom we trust,
    What wonder if a layman yield to lust?
    And shame it is, if priest take thought for keep,
    A ****ty shepherd, shepherding clean sheep.
    Well ought a priest example good to give,
    By his own cleanness, how his flock should live.
    He never let his benefice for hire,
    Leaving his flock to flounder in the mire,
    And ran to London, up to old Saint Paul's
    To get himself a chantry there for souls,
    Nor in some brotherhood did he withhold;
    But dwelt at home and kept so well the fold
    That never wolf could make his plans miscarry;
    He was a shepherd and not mercenary.
    And holy though he was, and virtuous,
    To sinners he was not impiteous,
    Nor haughty in his speech, nor too divine,
    But in all teaching prudent and benign.
    To lead folk into Heaven but by stress
    Of good example was his busyness.
    But if some sinful one proved obstinate,
    Be who it might, of high or low estate,
    Him he reproved, and sharply, as I know.
    There is nowhere a better priest, I trow.
    He had no thirst for pomp or reverence,
    Nor made himself a special, spiced conscience,
    But Christ's own lore, and His apostles' twelve
    He taught, but first he followed it himselve.

    THE PLOWMAN
    With him there was a plowman, was his brother,
    That many a load of dung, and many another
    Had scattered, for a good true toiler, he,
    Living in peace and perfect charity.
    He loved God most, and that with his whole heart
    At all times, though he played or plied his art,
    And next, his neighbour, even as himself.
    He'd thresh and dig, with never thought of pelf,
    For Christ's own sake, for every poor wight,
    All without pay, if it lay in his might.
    He paid his taxes, fully, fairly, well,
    Both by his own toil and by stuff he'd sell.
    In a tabard he rode upon a mare.
    There were also a reeve and miller there;
    A summoner, manciple and pardoner,
    And these, beside myself, made all there were.
    Cyde Christian Values did not Come from Romain Sociaty or Jewish Socity for that mater. The Romans, had gladitor fights they were very brutal people. Jewish sociaty was so caught up in following the Law that they forgot the bases of it. Also compare the 10 commandments to what the people of the day did.

    Second the Bible in no way deals with controception the only thing it says about sex is to have one wife, is firmy aginst blowing up Abortion Clinics (hate the sin , not the siner) and the share idea of people saying that others must die goes aginst "love your brother as you love your self". Religon does not hold back science Conservites hold back science. Conservites try to use religon as the reson for holding science back but if you were to actuly look at what the bible says it's going against them.
    I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

    -Isaiah 30.7

  2. #437
    "Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark." - C.S. Lewis
    You can see the flaw in this logic right? Though we cannot see, feel, or hear, radio waves, we do in fact, know they exist. But thats not the flaw, per se. The flaw in this quote being; We understand the concept of 'meaning'. e.g. There are elements within our awareness that have aforementioned property. It is therefor possible for us to consider the possibility of anything else having said property. Simply because I understand opacity to be a property of glass, means that I can apply the possibility of opacity to imaginary objects or objects I have not seen. Yet, simply because one (or more) thing(s) have a property, in no way indicates that the property is universal.

    >>The Parson and his brother the Plowman are the truly religious people.

    The bible makes no distinction. You simply have to be faithful "in your heart". If you screw up, and you're "truely sorry and ask forgiveness", then you're good to go.

    >>Cyde

    Stop doing that! Its Clyde. With an l. Sorry to be obnoxious about it but it keeps jumping out at me. No offence; It shouldn't throw me like that but it does.
    "There's always another way"
    -lightatdawn (lightatdawn.cprogramming.com)

  3. #438
    cereal killer dP munky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    655
    Originally posted by lightatdawn
    There are elements within our awareness that have aforementioned property. It is therefor possible for us to consider the possibility of anything else having said property. Simply because I understand opacity to be a property of glass, means that I can apply the possibility of opacity to imaginary objects or objects I have not seen. Yet, simply because one (or more) thing(s) have a property, in no way indicates that the property is universal.
    um...im going to show my true intelect

    ....huh?
    guns dont kill people, abortion clinics kill people.

  4. #439
    Perhaps I could have been a little clearer. I was refering to:

    "If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning"

    Which is bogus. He is assuming here that simply because something lacks a property (in this case, 'meaning') that we could never determine that said item (in this case, the universe), doesnt have that property. Thats bogus. Though my couch is not opaque, I am in fact, able to discern that light is not passing through it in any large amounts.

    What he is attempting to get at here, is that if x did not exist at all that we would never be able to calculate the non-existance of x. This is debatable in certain lights, but it is irrelevant since 'meaning' is a human contrived term and does, in fact, exist [to us]. Therefor we can attempt to apply this property to anything at all, regardless of whether it actually has it or not. i.e. I wonder what the meaning of hydrogen is?
    "There's always another way"
    -lightatdawn (lightatdawn.cprogramming.com)

  5. #440
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1998
    Posts
    2,595
    ok....

    Hrrm i think not. Which laws do you think come from religion? Laws against murder? thieving?

    Completely and utterly independant of religion, they are basic laws required for societ to exist, given that society evolved these laws evolved with them. Religion simply took on laws that already existed.
    I disagree, this is needed for OUR society to exsist. Not society. I was watching a special yesterday for example on a modren tribe in africa. If a child shows a bad luck sign in this tribe they throw the child away. Literally, binding the child's limbs if it's old enough to move on it's own they take it out to the savahna and throw it away. This is a society, yet murder is accepted. In ancient Sparta theivery was quite acceptable, especially among young boys, but only if they didn't get caught. In a strange way they were praised if they weren't caught, but if they were caught they were punished. They valuved theiving skills. They were a society.

    Our society was built by religious men, they took their church very seriousy and read their bible before they started writing laws. We've moved away from this in modren times, but we were started by religious refugees and they brought their values with them. If they ran away from their society because of religion don't you think those religious values might have been their core values? hmmm

    It has influence, religion stood up against transplant research during the victorian era, and it is the guiding star for the letter bombs that get sent to doctors who perform abortions.
    As for transplants, wll ok, modren religion's no longer have that kind of power. And there is a diffrence between religion and fanaticism. The no major church encouraged people to harm people who preform abortions. Those are called extremists who've morals are out of place. Just like an atheist's morals can be out of whack.

    will grant you that religion does influence religious people's morals, but as far as i can make out mostly in a bad way: In Africa, where in some countries over 50% of the population has AIDS, there are catholic missionaries who tell the local populations that contraception is morally wrong....
    You point out AIDS in Africa, well if I'm not mistaking those same priests were telling their populations to remain abstinate until marriage, a solution to aids that is even better than contraception. Religion also promotes not so bad things, like charities, education, ethics.

    Well this is true, but then the US is a western country with a reasonably good education system, good education means religion has been pushed back, there are less fundamentalists and more liberals. Religious beliefs are made more vague, less concrete less people go to church, religion becomes less and less of a force, so naturally its power to do negative things to human society decreases.
    I agree, but this conversation is afterall in westren society. Moreover the place that I would argue that religion is most important in those societies that don't have good education etc. Without that education what's to teach morals? I'm not saying that they shouldn't be educated. That is far more important, but we must look at reality.

    But tell me do you not think atleast part of the Sept. 11th is Islam vs. Christianity? If the US was a muslim country governed by muslim laws, do you think Sept 11th would have ever occured?
    First let me point out that you used "muslim laws," laws dictated by the religion.

    Now as to your point: Absolutely not. That was not Islam, those were fanatics. Moreover, they weren't upset about christianity, they were jealous, and upset about US culture. US culture != christianity. Do you think a priest would approve of Brittany Spears?

    Values is fine, absolute irrational beliefs are generally not. And values have always existed and will always exist on a society level, religion or not.

    Why? If they're not hurting anyone who cares?

    You cannot have society without ethics...
    I beg to differ, it's called natural law, natural secection.


    You seem to be basing your fanatical anti-religious beliefs around the assumption that all religion is based in soley illogical beliefs and is absolute. This is not true of most modren western religion. Most westren religions promote questioning and self involvement. They encourage teh debate over morals. They have their beliefs yes, but they are thought our and discussed.

    Religion is not that black and white, and in many ways today it is as much a look at values as it is a look at the bible. For example, I'll give my "religion." I am a reform jew. Since the beginning of time jeudism has valued education over all else, and since around 80 AD (or CE) it has valued questioning and debate just as highly. I consider it a culture just as much as a religion. It doesn't teach the bible as absolute truth, instead uses it as a way to messure our actions and deturmine ethics and morals. It is not irrational at all, it is well thought our beliefs based on generations of expirence and writings and deep personal beliefs morals and ethics. That is the religion I speak of, modren westren ones.

    I do not believe in total irrational beliefs, but if education is not, or cannot be present I would rather the irrational than a lack of ethics, and religion also often gives people inner stregth and something to believe in. I'm not going to research and quote studies right now, but if you were to you would easily find the studies that say how spychologically important this is.


    now...L@D:

    I disagree with you about parents etc....

    Authoritative parents are those that expect their children to be perfect essentially and yell, scream, and even withdraw love from them if they're not. That's a rough discription, it's basically a monarchy with the parents as king, and as all that matters. Some authority is a very important things for children, this is why the "best" style of parenting is called "Authoritatrian," which is actually much more of a democracy in the relationship. Do a search for more on these terms, but another layer on authority, when proper, isn't nessicarily a bad thing. The most religious people I know, who incidently have great parents, acutally rebelled the least.

    Another thing to note is that it is common in teenage years to rebel agienst religion, however, when from religous families, as people figure out what they want they often come back to that religion.


    I'm not promoting a fundamentalist view at all, I saying that religion isn't something that should be blacked out wholesale. It is right for some, and it isn't all bad. It has it's place in society, though not controlling society.
    Kermi3

    If you're new to the boards, welcome and reading this will help you get started.
    Information on code tags may be found here

    - Sandlot is the highest form of sport.

  6. #441
    >>They encourage teh debate over morals.

    Not that I've seen. All of the churches I've been to discourage reinterpreting the bible or questioning your religion in any other way.

    >>I disagree with you about parents etc....

    Actually, you must have misinterpreted me a little (or maybe I wasn't very clear). I agree that discipline is essential. I'm disgusted my some modern methods of letting small children get away with anything they want. The future is in the hands of these childrens parents right now. Children have to be taught. You dont learn things magically. I just feel that imposing not only the required parental guidance, as well as the legal restrictions, but also a "higher" interfearance, can cause kids to overload. Eventually you will see that what your parents taught you is useful. Eventually you will see that what the law says is [often] for the good of the people as a whole. Many of the teachings of religion are not applicable or do not fit well with these other guidlines. Like the things I mentioned befoire and many others, this causes tremendous turmoil and unnecessary problems later in life.

    I dont see religion helping people live happily, and in harmony. I see religion telling people how to act and that there is only one way that is acceptable. Intolerance is one of the negative "values" instilled by this. Its harmful.

    >>They valuved theiving skills. They were a society.

    Hmm. But look at what societies have been sucessful in terms of chances of survival. Survival of the fittest means that the optimally performing system will become the dominant one. If/when a better system emerges, it will [eventually] become the dominant system. You only have to look to documented history to see this in effect. Anything can be a society (i.e. The Flat Earth Society ), but it takes a little more for it to survive.
    "There's always another way"
    -lightatdawn (lightatdawn.cprogramming.com)

  7. #442
    Cheesy Poofs! PJYelton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Boulder
    Posts
    1,728
    Unfortunately I only have a couple of minutes to write, so everything will have to wait until tomorrow, but I wanted to say a couple of things.
    Of course! I'm the first to stand up for peoples right to believe whatever they will. I'll stand behind any defence of freedom regardless of whether I, myself, enjoy or even agree with that freedom. That doesnt stop me from reasoning/debating with anyone that holds a different view than myself. Even though it is _legal_ and within my rights, to consider a certain race inferior to my own, do you seriously believe that nobody should contradict me?
    I'm sorry if I implied anything - I completely agree that there is nothing wrong with reasoning or debating with someone who has a different opinion than you. I was talking about Clyde's plan to eradicate religion which goes above and beyond that.

    And Clyde your proof that the world is better off without religion because you have converted people and they thanked you? I have been a member of over 5 different churches in my past, and on a WEEKLY basis encountered MANY MANY people who's lives changed dramatically because they recently found the church. The church gave them meaning in their lives that they found nowhere else - especially not from science or society - and now they are the happiest they have ever been. Every night they thanked and praised the church. So by your logic, its good for atheists to become religious.

    What examples do you have to make a claim such that we are better off without religion? What examples do you have of society being bad, religion is taken away, and then society being good? You are making assumptions as well that because religion was to blame for something, it wouldn't have happened if religion is nonexistant. Do you think without religion, society would have embraced evolution or heliocentric solar system? It doesn't take religion for somebody to become passionately against the idea of coming from apes or that we aren't the center of the universe, especially when brought up your whole life thinking otherwise.

    What the problem here is that I agree with you on many points about religion, from it being a crutch, to being illogical, to being unnecessary from an evolutionary standpoint. But I also strongly believe that I could be wrong. What science believes now will not be what science believes 500 years from now. Science is not 100% perfect, nor is there proof that god does not exist, no matter how infinitly small the possibility. The idea of forcing people to view science as the answer WHEN WE AREN'T 100% SURE THAT IT IS is just wrong to me. If one were to show that religion is completely absolutely no doubt wrong, then I'd maybe go with you. But we aren't sure! The best we can do is show that it is unlikely.

    Ack, surpassed my time, I'll write more tomorrow.

  8. #443
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1998
    Posts
    2,595
    First of all I want to say I think it's really funny how there are two diffrent conversations going on in this thread...anyway....

    L@D:

    Not that I've seen. All of the churches I've been to discourage reinterpreting the bible or questioning your religion in any other way.
    The two "churches" I've seen the heard the most about, my temple and a friends methodist church, encourage questioning to a high degree, mine more than hers I believe though. Not so much in the writings, but in the morals and how you should act.

    Every weeks @ a jewish service there are actually two Books that are read from. The Torah, or the first five books of the bible, and the lesser known Talmud (sp? I know sad). The Talmud is a collection of writings, going back to the prophets, but some as recent as 400-500 years ago, they are basically great rabbi's who wrote down their take on that weeks Torah reading or on whatever, they include anecdotes, and interpretations, lessons on life. For example the famous story of the miscliamed baby that King Soloman was going to cut in half comes from it....

    I won't touch the religion harmful bit cause I think it can have benifit, though I don't think it should be the driving force to a society, nor is it for everyone. It has it's place.

    Anyway, on to firmer ground so to speak...


    As for parenting styles L@D I totally agree with you on parenting styles. There must be a balance between the 2 extremes...check out this:

    http://www.aboutourkids.org/articles...s.html#author1

    I think you'll find it intresting. You might want to even do some more seraches on this if you're really intrested I took a psyc class that spent 2 weeks on your posts so heh...there's a lot out there.


    As for the Spartans...well they did survive for 390 years...that's more than us so far .
    Kermi3

    If you're new to the boards, welcome and reading this will help you get started.
    Information on code tags may be found here

    - Sandlot is the highest form of sport.

  9. #444
    Christian
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    612
    The bible makes no distinction. You simply have to be faithful "in your heart". If you screw up, and you're "truely sorry and ask forgiveness", then you're good to go.
    Does someone who is truly sorry continue to act wrongly? True we will always sin, but we have to try fully not to. Well I'm saved purly by Grace, I reject the gift if I don't have revrence for the lord love my neighbor as I love my self.
    I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

    -Isaiah 30.7

  10. #445
    train spotter
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    near a computer
    Posts
    3,868
    I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time.
    -- Isaac Asimov,

    Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
    The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
    "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
    "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
    -- Douglas Adams
    "Man alone suffers so excruciatingly in the world that he was compelled to invent laughter."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    "I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars......the rest I squandered."
    George Best

    "If you are going through hell....keep going."
    Winston Churchill

  11. #446
    Christian
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    612
    God would of never preformed miricles if he did not want to show us proof. Jesus would not have been resuracted, ect.
    I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

    -Isaiah 30.7

  12. #447
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1998
    Posts
    2,595
    Umm msentaku, you may have missed the point on that one, maybe not. But bottom line it's just a funny quote hehe.
    Kermi3

    If you're new to the boards, welcome and reading this will help you get started.
    Information on code tags may be found here

    - Sandlot is the highest form of sport.

  13. #448
    Christian
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    612
    I know it's a funny quote, but it's used so much it has been over done.
    I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

    -Isaiah 30.7

  14. #449
    Blank
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    1,034
    You can see the flaw in this logic right?
    It presumes the aithest thinks
    the universe is meaningless. This
    is not the case though outwardly they may say it.

    Lewis kind of makes fanciful logic jokes but here goes.
    If the universe did not have any meaning nothing
    in it would have any meaning. But then
    we would never know the meaning of meaning ie we would
    not have a word for meaning. (:

    Most of the arguments against religion seem to be against
    "religious" people. Religious has a negative overtone (maybe
    not always but surly in modern society) to describe people who only pay lip service to their religion. A better word to use is pious.

  15. #450
    aurë entuluva! mithrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    1,209
    >>Do you think that everyone needs a religion? Or that everyone needs christianity's beliefs, granted modren judism and modern islam have extremely simliar views to modren christianity on how you should live...maybe cause they all derrive from ancient judism hmmm?<<

    I don't mind explaining - in fact I welcome my beliefs being questioned in a constructive way. I feel that Jesus is the best example of how we should try to live - or to put it a better way, his example is perhaps the easiest for most people to be able to grasp because he spoke to everyday people. But as you noticed, I have also said that all of the major religions have the same core beliefs. I think people should be free to choose to believe in what they want without being persecuted for it. That is why I hate it when some scientists say, "Oh you idiot, God isn't real, you're crazy, and here's the proof!". Well I have the Bible as my proof – I have Jesus Christ as my proof. And what he said is every bit as credible as supposed scientific evidence.

    I have met many people who say, "Oh Christianity is a load of crap!" and yet know very little about it at all. Or if they do, they see it as strict nuns and priests, and masses in Latin - they only see the past. And granted, there have been some terrible (perhaps even unforgivable) atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity. So I understand why people aren't so keen on it (!). But I believe in moving forward from this view - it is up to the Christians of today to, not so much make up for the past, but to live and act and speak in the way that is true to the faith. Those who committed the sins of the past under the title of Christianity were not Christians. Their faith was false and their actions evil.

    Now you've guessed by now I'm a Christian - Catholic to be precise. I have found this to be the best religion for me, at least at this stage of my life. Other friends of mine find the Jewish faith to suit them, or the Buddhist, or Islam - and that is fine with me. I do not try to say to get them to convert, nor do they to me. I am not saying pick any religion because they are all as good as each other either. They are fundamentally the same, but moving past that they are all unique. Do I think everyone needs a religion? No and Yes. No because I think you can be perfectly happy and live right without one. Yes because the journey alone to find God without a religion is a like walking around in the dark without a flashlight. That is not to say without religion you cannot find God, but think of the fact that religions were created by people who found God in their own way, and came together to unite with common beliefs. Obviously as there are so many religions, what you find yourself without a religion may in fact be already found by a religion. Furthermore, a religion helps you focus on your spirituality – either through prayer or mediation. It is a lot harder to do this on your own than with the support of others.

Popular pages Recent additions subscribe to a feed

Similar Threads

  1. what race is god?
    By Leeman_s in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-22-2004, 05:38 PM
  2. God II
    By Leeman_s in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-09-2003, 01:42 AM
  3. GOD and religion
    By Unregistered in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 10-14-2001, 05:13 PM
  4. Foundations
    By mithrandir in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 10-05-2001, 02:18 PM