Thread: God

Well praise the Lord and pass the ammunition for science and its ability to create weapons of mass destruction!

>>Science can help do wonders for civilisation in the same way that it can help destroy it. The decision as to which way the pendulum swings lies in the hands of mankind itself.<<

And "BINGO" you said exactly what I wanted you to say. People make the decision. Science is just a tool. It cannot tell us how to live our lives, nor can it provide us with answers to the situations we face in life. So of what practical value is science in that regard? None. It does not fulfil any spiritual void that exists in every human whether they chose to recognise it or not. It does not show us how to love one another, it does not tell us how to live justly and fairly, it does not tell us how to live good lives. But Jesus did. He showed us that one man could make a difference in the world. That even a simple carpenter can show us the way to spiritual fulfilment and enlightenment. Science ignores the most basic and fundament question that faces humanity - how did we get here? It is illogical to me to write off the possibility of God simply because we do not yet have the means to study such a possibility. For all of the talk of science being logical, I find this endlessly amusing.

Bravo Mr Fitlike, bravo! An inspired right royal kick up the backside of these amateur philosophers!

...

Well praise the Lord and pass the ammunition for science and its ability to create weapons of mass destruction!

lol@mithrandir

"And "BINGO" you said exactly what I wanted you to say. People make the decision. Science is just a tool. It cannot tell us how to live our lives, nor can it provide us with answers to the situations we face in life."

It cannot tell us how to live our lives in the sense of our social interactions, but it can tell us about the universe around us, that in turn does affect how we live our lives atleast to some degree.

"So of what practical value is science in that regard? None"

It provides answers, to the great questions that have governed human existance: Why am I here? What is my purpose?

Furthermore "science" and scientists have never claimed that the scientific method should be used to determine how to live our lives, what it is used for is determining the truth about the universe, including us and our small little world.

" It does not show us how to love one another, it does not tell us how to live justly and fairly, it does not tell us how to live good lives."

And it does not claim to.

"But Jesus did"

LOL, thats it? Thats what the diatribe boiled down to? There are ways of teaching ethics/how to live our lives that do not rely on religious irrationality, humanism being a good example.

"He showed us that one man could make a difference in the world."

....... so if I write book that tells a moral story, and there are plenty out there, that automatically means we should take the book as fact does it?

If you want to look at the bible as one large moral story, thats fine, just dont go around saying it was true.

"That even a simple carpenter can show us the way to spiritual fulfilment and enlightenment"

Spiritual enlightenment......... man that term gets bandied around doesn't it, and yet it is remarkable that no-one can actually tell me what exactly they mean by it.

As far as i can tell I am about the most un "spiritually-enlightened" person on the planet, and yet I love poetry, music, I will gaze in wonder at a rainbow, marvel at the serenity of a sun-rise, gasp in awe at the power of a storm, so what exactly is it that i'm missing from my "spiritually unenlightened" perspective eh? See i don't think i'm missing anything, i think i'm experiencing everything that is there, its just i'm not making up a whole bunch of stuff thats not.

"Science ignores the most basic and fundament question that faces humanity - how did we get here?"

I'm sorry, but.... what? Science IGNORES it!? Hmm lets see perhaps you missed the very new theory that explains that, its called................................ "evolution". Look it up some time.

"It is illogical to me to write off the possibility of God simply because we do not yet have the means to study such a possibility"

................. did you read the thread, i have listed so many many reasons why belief in God is farcical, how is it you could have misunderstood all of them?

however to point out the folly of your statement, using my trusty kangaroo:

"It is illogical to me to write off the possibility of an invisible kangaroo simply because we do not yet have the means to study such a possiblility".

Now i suppose you could argue that, there IS a possibility no matter how insignificant that my kangaroo and your God do exist so we really shouldn't "write them off", well fair enough don't write them off then, but we do have to have some way of distinguishing what to believe in from the infinite number of possibilities before us. Don't write God off then, but certainly don't believe in him, don't write off that the loon in the asylum might actually BE Napolean despite all his tell tale signs of mental illness if you dont want to (more fool you if you ask me), but don't discharge him either. If you do not rule out what NOT to believe in, you end in a dream world where there is no line between imaginary and real; aka as a nut.

"For all of the talk of science being logical, I find this endlessly amusing."

Possibly because you don't understand the term "logical" at all.

I am going to respond twice to this, once with my views, and once with the mod's law on this thread.

My views first:

mithrandir - I'm responding to you, since I don't agree with you, no offense. I have not read Clyde's response so forgive me if I repeat.

say. People make the decision. Science is just a tool. It cannot tell us how to live our lives, nor can it provide us with answers to the situations we face in life.

This is very true, and you argue that religion can do this. However I disagree with you. Religion can tell us how to live our lives, but it doesn't.

Lets look at European history, though world history would work jsut as well...More blood has been shed in the name of religion than anything else. For something that is supposed to tell us how to live, it has certainly "told" a lot of people to kill and torture. You will counter this arguement with "That was then etc" Well Then isn't any diffrent than now except for scientific advances. We have better communications, trade, and mroe food and resources availible due to to science advances. Given the chance people will still try and push their religion on others, using violence to do it if they see fit.


In here you also use an arguement that particuarlly disturbs me, however I won't argue it too much becaus eI don't think either of us will budge. You say that religion teaches us to love. I disagree. Human's are capable of love with or without religion teaching us how. I know married athiest couple who are as much "in love" as anyone I've ever seen, they've been married 20+ years.

- - - - - - -

Science ignores the most basic and fundament question that faces humanity - how did we get here? It is illogical to me to write off the possibility of God simply because we do not yet have the means to study such a possibility. For all of the talk of science being logical, I find this endlessly amusing.

No it doesn't, there are many theories. Big bang, evolution etc. Evolution has been essentially proven. The way science works is that something must be proven, once proven, in a repetitive and conclusive manner, then it must be disproven. Science does not say that God doesn't exsist. It simply says that it has nothing to suggest God does.

To this you may argue that there are many things that science cannot explain. This is true. However, science can explain many more things now than it could 200 years ago. I think it is only reasonable to assume that in another 200 years the things (that we can consive of now ) will be proven, though new unexlpained things may be there. For example, you take an airplane back 200 years and show it to a great physicist and ask him how it works, they are likely to say it's magic. However today a logical proven explanation can be given.


Now taking your post as a whole....

You seem to have totally skipped out on the brunt of the arguement that science is a tool. I agree it is a tool. And people must decide how to use it. Just because religion can do this, christianity in this case, doesn't mean it is the truth. Other religions can do this too, and have.

This thread has been pushing the limits for days now...let me bring some on you back to reality.

People have been giving responses that are yellling, complainign, or directly insulting someone's intelligence. Just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they're wrong or stupid. You all know what kind of posts I'm talking about.

If you disagree with someone please reposnd calmly and don't make it personal.

As to the complaints about the value of this thread, it has some. If you're tired of it just please don't read it.

This thread is toeing the line. This is a very sensitive issue for mane people. If the insulting, yelling, and belittling doesn't stop I, or another mod, will close this thread. No questioned asked.


Any questions please feel free to PM me.

Kermi3
Lead Moderator

>>LOL, thats it? Thats what the diatribe boiled down to? There are ways of teaching ethics/how to live our lives that do not rely on religious irrationality, humanism being a good example.<<

If this is your statement, then you know nothing about Jesus at all. He was a humanist. He said "spread the word". It just happens that people interpreted what he said as "start a new church" and given the time when people were religious, they started a new religion, branching off from Judaism. And 2000 years later we have Christianity.

The thing about relgion is that it is paradoxical. I do not deny that religion can be irrational at times, but then again it can be quite rational. But just because religion at times has done the wrong thing, is that grounds to say "let us never use it again"? In WWII scientists in Australia tested mustard gas on Australian servicemen. Now I'm sure there isn't a person alive who would say that this was a fine thing to do! But again, because some unethical scientists did this, should I then say that we must never use science again? No because it has also done a great deal of good for people, just as religion has done a great deal of good for people.


>>It provides answers, to the great questions that have governed human existance: Why am I here? What is my purpose?<<

Correction - HOW I am here, not WHY I am here.

>>As far as i can tell I am about the most un "spiritually-enlightened" person on the planet, and yet I love poetry, music, I will gaze in wonder at a rainbow, marvel at the serenity of a sun-rise, gasp in awe at the power of a storm, so what exactly is it that i'm missing from my "spiritually unenlightened" perspective eh? See i don't think i'm missing anything, i think i'm experiencing everything that is there, its just i'm not making up a whole bunch of stuff thats not.<<

I do not deny you are an intelligent person Clyde, perhaps one of the most intelligent people here. I am amazed by your scientific knowledge. You have a very strong sense of your beliefs which you defend admirably. Maybe you aren't missing anything, but I couldn't honestly say that you are because I am not you. But I see exactly the same things as you do - I find a beauty in nature that I cannot describe the way it makes me feel. But can either of us say we honestly don't feel anything more than what we see when we look at a sunrise, sunset, or storm? Yes, the sun is hydrogen gas - but do you see hydrogen gas when you look at it or do you see something more than that, something perhaps that you cannot say what it is you see?

>>I'm sorry, but.... what? Science IGNORES it!? Hmm lets see perhaps you missed the very new theory that explains that, its called................................ "evolution". Look it up some time.<<

Yes I have studied Darwin's theory of evolution. But all this does not describe why we are here, only how. The how is pointless without the why.

>>................. did you read the thread, i have listed so many many reasons why belief in God is farcical, how is it you could have misunderstood all of them?<<

I do not misunderstand anything - I do not buy your argument.

>>You seem to have totally skipped out on the brunt of the arguement that science is a tool. I agree it is a tool. And people must decide how to use it. Just because religion can do this, christianity in this case, doesn't mean it is the truth. Other religions can do this too, and have.<<

To quote the Dalai Lama

Every major religion of the world has similar ideas of love, the same goal benefitting humanity through spiritual practice, and the same effect of making their followers into better human beings.

These are the fundamentals of every religion. If you cannot see the point to wanting to be better people, to reach a stage where all mankind is able to end violence and embrace each other without judgement, then you are in my opinion a complete and utter fool. And this is what annoys me the most - "doesn't mean it is the truth". Stop looking at "Jesus went to this place and did this" and "Buddha sat under the boa tree and didn't eat meat" or "Moses parted the sea" and "Mohammed had x amount of wives". Look at what it is they said - that is the truth.

You seem to be dwelling on why are we here? This doesn't make sense to me. As I understand it Christianity only claims that we are here because God was lonely one day and created Adam. It describes what will happen to us, revolations, paradise etc., it explains how we should live, and it says how we got here. But not why.

The question I pose to you is does there have to be a reason? At least in the sense you are talking about. Isn't it possible that it is up to each person to define why they are here, what they are to do, on their own? Some may do this by decidign that what they are here for is to follow the teachings of Jesus, or Buddah, or Mohommed, others may decide that they wish to edcuate the poor, heal the sick, raise a family, or even make a lot of money (not a perfect reason for being here, but a reason just the same). It seems that you are grasping to define the Why, and I believe that that is up to everyone to decide for themselves.

//EDIT ADDED IN REPSONSE:

I think that even without organized religion people can strive for the goals you listed above. I do, yet I do not believe in Jesus as the son of God, nor do I believe in Mohammed as God's prophet. Nor have I seriosuly studied either of their teachings...as in bible study etc. I don't have to. I already strive for these things simply because I believe it is right.

//END EDIT

You probably hadn't read it when you posted, but after your post I'll reiderate my warnging about making fun of other's arguements, insulting etc. If this thread doesn't stay respectable, and respectful from the end the period at the end of this sentance onward I will close it without a second thought.

Kermi3

>>You probably hadn't read it when you posted, but after your post I'll reiderate my warnging about making fun of other's arguements, insulting etc.<<

Yes I had read your last post. I was simply saying that you would be a fool to not want a better world. That is not a personalised "you" I hope you understand. And I would not withdraw that comment under pain of death!

>>The question I pose to you is does there have to be a reason?<<

There is a reason - but what I am saying is that science cannot provide this reason. The reason is given by every religion - because God created the world and created us to look after this world. Part of this is to love God, love ourselves, and love each other. That is the reason for us being here. EDIT / even if you chose not to follow a relgion, living in harmony with your fellow man is surley a common goal that we should strive for / EDIT

>>Isn't it possible that it is up to each person to define why they are here, what they are to do, on their own?<<

Very few people ever do.

>>Isn't it possible that it is up to each person to define why they are here, what they are to do, on their own?<<

Very few people ever do.

I beg to differ. Most people decide what their purpose is. It may not be a rightous reason. It could be totally selfish but it is still a reason.

Also you have not answered my question. Your arguement seems to center around the need for a reason. Why does there have to be a reason, or any reason for that matter? Can't people define their lives for themselves?

Originally posted by sentienttoaster
I have a question for anyone who truly believes GOD exists. Since GOD is said to be all powerful, he created the world, and men, why would he/she allow men who seek to disprove his existance to do so. Since GOD has shown himself to be vengeful, why does he not just smite down those people, along with people who do not believe in him. I know what I have jsut asked may sound "stupid" or "illogical" or "senseless" but I asken them anyway because I woule like an intellegent response to them.

One question: What's with the CAPITULAIZATION of God?

But to answer your question, God gave us free will. We have the free will to do anything we like; questioning God being one of those. It's natural to question your faith...without it you'd just be following a bunch of BS somebody's fed you. Explore!