Thread: Iraq

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>>ok can we please have a non propaganda non BS discussion on politics

OK, but you wont like it because most of the propaganda and BS comes from your media. Trying to stir up agressions and create news.

>>First, I never heard of the U.S. selling military hardware to Iraq.

I bet you never heard of Pres Regan, Vice Pres Bush senior and Ollie North trading arms with the Nicaraguauan rebels and Iran? (while Iran held US embassy workers hostage).

Or selling Iran missiles and Nicaraguauan rebels guns and running drugs into the US, but it happened, and was a even proveble that Regan commited a felony under the Arms Export Control Act (even if he could not remember doing it, the order had his signature on it).

Don't worry it only went on for a few years in the early '80s.

(search for 'Iran Contra' and look specifically for 'Eugene Hasenfus' the survivor of the plane that was shot down on October 5th, 1986, revealing it all, including the phone calls to the White house to VP Bush snr's private number)

Or that the govt later admitted it engaged in dealings with Noriega so he would assassinate the Sandinista for the US.
(here is what the US govt admitted during the trial)
http://www.webcom.com/pinknoiz/covert/stip.html

>>The Iranians had superior weapons, tanks, etc

Because they came from the US. Interesting on the human condition, over ten countries supplied arms to BOTH sides in the conflict, inc the US. France was Iraq's biggest supplier of arms and Israel supplied Iran's (cause they wanted to bleed both countries).

All the time the US is using the Iraq / Iran war to convince other Arab states that they need to allow US bases for protection. Secretly selling arms to Sadam because he opposed the communists.

It was this scandel that cause the US much embassasment in the Arab world. They had been caught supporting both sides of the Iran /Iraq war and suppying both with US intel and with US arms. The Arabs realised the US was more concerned with communism and self interest (profit) than Middle East peace. To save face the US had to help Iraq big time. In '86 CIA chief Casey was supplying intel direct from the spy sat's to Iraq. The US also supported Iraq in the UN to get Resolution 598.

All this time only a million or so people died.

Or that the US used the UN's security cameras (in the weapons inspectors compound in Baghdad) to spy on Iraq and that is why they were kicked out. (search for the Aussie 'Butler' who was in charge of the operation)



Not so Homer and McD's?
Is there only two choices? How about a world where peoples lives are equally important, irregardless of where they live and how many dollars they have?
Or is that there are no good guys to choose, just the lesser of two evils?

>OK, but you wont like it because most of the propaganda and BS comes from your media. Trying to stir up agressions and create news.

yeah, i never denied it, they all do it. but non-american media makes ours look like angels plus a lot of our media comes from that media, too. and world media "suppliers" such as the AP have a ready supply of BS and propaganda to spew. just don't readily by the political propaganda and then preach it like gospel, thats all im saying.

>Is there only two choices? How about a world where peoples lives are equally important, irregardless of where they live and how many dollars they have?

a dream?

>Or is that there are no good guys to choose, just the lesser of two evils?

this is the way it is and always has been.

nova,

do you have some sort of vendeta here?

yeah sure our gvt. does a lot of bad things!!
But not a thousanth what others do, and we do way more good things. Picking at only the bad parts doesn't allow you to see the whole story, not the good parts, not even the bad parts.

P.S. Is it just me, or do people always assume the worst about the US?

What do you mean, assume? Obviously, if you'd been paying attention you would know that the USA is the root of all the world's problems. In fact, if the USA were to somehow drop off the face of the Earth today, then global peace, equality, and harmony would all be a reality tomorrow. There's no assumption involved; it's widely known that without the United States hand of repression, there would be no starvation, no terrorism, no senseless acts of violence, no hate crimes, no economic problems, no AIDS, no corporate crime, no inflation, no natural disasters, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no kidnappings, no sex with children, no endangered species, no global warming, no hole in the ozone layer, no depletion of natural resources, no threat of collision with asteroids, no worrying about retirement, no retarded people, no male pattern baldness, no ugly people, no famine, no disease, no floods, no recessions, no lung cancer, no body fat, no vehicular accidents, no broken homes, no smog, no UV rays, no radiation, no bankruptcy, no cell phone calls in restaurants, no slow internet connections, no discontent, no hijacking, no breast cancer, no suicide bombers, no poison gas, no dirty bombs, no sun burns, no frostbite, no ovarian cancer, no despotic dictators, no poverty, no war, no acrimony, no enmity. Can't you see? The USA is responsible for all of the world's problems. Without the USA we could all live in peace, holding hands, dancing, singing, and making merry! Imagine all the people, living for today! Imagine all the people, living life in peace! It's easy if you try.

"...of all peoples, those most deeply attached to peace are the democratic nations." - Alexis de Tocqueville

My point being that the US is telling the rest of the world we have to go to war with Iraq. Why?

Because Sadam supports terrorism, uses chemical & nuke weapons and is generally a bad guy.

I am just pointing out that the US has a few of the same skeletons in the closet.

The US government has supported & supplied terrorism, run drugs, used chemical & nuke weapons, encoraged a war for profit and rarely cleans up afterwards. You just don't hear about this part of the US's 'war on terrorism' on CNN.
The Machiavellian 'ends justifing the means' is an excuse for not doing the right thing (or sinking to the terrorists level).

In other words exactly what the US tells us Sadam has to be removed for.

I just think that you should see the whole picture before whole-heartedly accepting the validity of this conflict (or we will have another Vietnam).

Violence encorages terrorism, it can not cure it. Terrorism is a just a symptom of poverty. US$6.4 billion in aid, instead of bombs, would have ACTUALLY cured terrorism in Afghanistan without the 6000+ civillian casualties. Its hard to stir up the levels of intolerance and indignation necessary for suicide terrorism when everybody is fat, healthy and happy.

>>we supported Iraq against the commie's
The US supported Sadam against the commies. Maybe the commies would have been better.

And Fletch, silly me.
I should realise that the US is the incapable of doing wrong. The US can never make a mistake and we should sacrifice our children, money and futures, without question, whenever the US asks.

Excuse me for daring to question the US version of the truth. I forget that the freedom to question the status quo is only allowed if it does not make the US look bad.

>>6.4 billion dollars in aid is a very vague amount

Its the amount the US govt. first allocated to the military for Afghanistan. I was saying if you had spent that money on rebuilding Afghanistan when they asked for US help after the Russians left.....

No-One, its not my country that people hate so much they are prepared to die hurting it. If it was I would try to find out why (and remove that reason).

You say its OK to spend the money on bombs and guns resulting in the death of many innocents for a very few guilty if it gets your idea across (which strangely enough is the same rationalization the terrorists use).

Then you ridicule me for thinking it would be better spent on improving the average Afghanistan citizens life so they could not be convinced to die for any cause.

Who's priorities are wrong?

>>the first truly democratic country (or at least the oldest currently existing)
And Australia is one of the few countries that was founded without a war.