Thread: Iraq

I am just pointing out that the US has a few of the same skeletons in the closet.

I am just pointing out that the US isn't the only country with skeletons in their closet.

I was saying if you had spent that money on rebuilding Afghanistan when they asked for US help after the Russians left.....

Here's my point...the US is incapable of being right in your eyes. If the US had supplied aid, we would have been accused of attempting to influence other governments, install a puppet government, etc., etc. (similar to what the US is being accused of with Iraq now). Since the US didn't supply aid following the withdrawal of the Russians, we are now responsible for the horrible state of affairs there. The US would have been wrong either way...thus unable to be in the right - a no-win situation.

Speaking of aid...If Palestine receives $100's of millions of dollars in aid every month, why isn't that the happiest ****ing place on earth? Just giving money to a country like Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, or Cuba doesn't work, because the money passes through their governments, which are all (putting it mildly) corrupt. So a little money gets pilfered here, a little there, and lo and behold: there's no money left for schools, health care, public works, or anything else! But the leaders of those countries -Arafat (who's a billionaire), Saddam, Castro - are all very well off. Arafat hasn't had a job other than terrorism or the PLO since the early 60's. How does one get rich being a terrorist followed by being a 'public servant' in a ........-poor country like Palestine? By being corrupt, that's how.

better spent on improving the average Afghanistan citizens life so they could not be convinced to die for any cause.

Schools recently opened in Afghanistan - schools that teach boys and girls - for the first time since the Taliban took power. Thank you to the United States and its Allies.

And Australia is one of the few countries that was founded without a war.

Australia was a penal colony.

No-One, its not my country that people hate so much they are prepared to die hurting it.

It may not be your country, but it is your way of life.

If it was I would try to find out why (and remove that reason).

Novocaine, I hate you. I don't like how you dress. I don't like your religious beliefs. I don't like how you manage your family. I don't like how you treat your women (You can see their ankles!). I don't like the fact that you have more money than me. I don't like that you live in the southern hemisphere. In fact, I don't like you so much that I'm going to kill you.

Remove the reason that I hate you so that I won't want to kill you anymore.

You just don't hear about this part of the US's 'war on terrorism' on CNN.

Then edify us. With specifics.

And Fletch, silly me. I should realise that the US is the incapable of doing wrong.

And Novacaine, silly me. I should realize that the US is incapable of doing right.

Excuse me for daring to question the US version of the truth. I forget that the freedom to question the status quo is only allowed if it does not make the US look bad.

Yep, you're right again. Can't question the US government. No sir. In fact, if you do, a couple of guys in black suits will come to your house in the middle of the night and take you away, a la 1984. It'll be as if you never existed.

Maybe the commies would have been better.

Tell you what, Novacaine. Get on a plane and fly to Moscow. Go to the store and wait in line for a pair of shoes. When you're done there, go wait in line for a loaf of bread. Then tell me that communism is better. If you're still not convinced, go to Cuba and talk **** about Castro. I'm sure he won't mind. When (and if) you leave Cuba, go to Palestine. Talk **** about Hamas, Arafat, and the PLO. I'd tell you to go to Iraq next, but somebody will have flamed you by this point. Ask all those North Koreans why they keep wanting to leave their fine communist country. For contrast, ask all the illegal Mexicans why they'd rather be in the US illegally than in Mexico legally.

Novacain, no one is questioning your right to question the US and its foreign policy. What people are upset about is the blanket dislike of the United States; the automatic assumption that whatever the US does is wrong. The implied statement that the world's problems are due solely to US foreign policy. And, as the ubiquitous Unregistered pointed out, your naivete about human behavior is frustrating. There are evil people in this world, people who lie, manipulate, hate, and destroy. They're not all American either.

>russia isn't communist, anymore, fletch...
you could argue that russia was better under communism than capitalism. (of course, better is a relative term...)<

Well having an economy that is so young it is doing quite well. They basicly had to start from scratch after communsim ended dont' forget.

Russia may no longer be a communist country per se, but they are certainly not a capitalist country. Mob controlled would be a better description. Regardless, Russia is still suffering the effects of communism. China is still communist. Their 'capitalist buisnesses' are state-owned, not individually owned. Money from these buisnesses goes to the state, not the people.

cuba isn't a communist country in the sense of the word 'communist', it's a dictatorship.

Right you are. At worst communism is a dictatorship; at best it's an oligarchy. Communism is never just communism.

I wasn't trying to steer the direction of the thread towards communism vs. democracy. I was responding to a statement by novacain that Iraq would be a better place if it had been taken over by the 'commies'. I was trying to point out that it wouldn't be better. Different perhaps, but not better.

i believe we would lose much more than we gain.

Ahhh, the original scope of the thread. What do we have to lose, other than novacain's high esteem of the USA? How about, what do we have to gain? More importantly, what does the future, what do our children have to gain?

golfinguy4
Yes, I think if the US had helped Afghanistan after the Russians pulled out, as was asked of them, there would not have been the opportunity for the Taliban to seize power.

I think you have all fallen for the media spin.

What I am trying to explain is that this has very little to do with religion. It is much more about what the US did during and after the Iraq / Iran war. Playing both sides, encouraging the conflict to increase US influence in the region at the cost of Middle East Stability and lives. All because of the spectre of communism (and the value of oil). Betrayal in a military situation is extreme taboo in Islam. (I am not saying I agree with the fundamentalist Islam, I don't, but then again I think religion is the biggest blight on humanity.)

The only reason religion is involved is because it is easier to apportion blame, easier to encourage righteous indignation at this fundamental level. Easier for the masses to understand, both sides use it.

Believe me they would be doing this if we were Hindu, Christian or Moslem.

After the fall of the USSR, the media needed a new scapegoat, guess who it is.

Fletch
>>the US is incapable of being right in your eyes
It is not about blame, it is about stopping it happening again. I don't think killing 6000+ Afghani's who have done nothing wrong will decrease the chances of another terrorist attack, I think it will increase it. Same goes for Iraq. I think that an attack will create more conflict in the region not less.

And NO. I do not think the US should be secretly supplying arms and terrorist (CIA) training to anybody (just because at the time they are fighting communists, fundamentalists or aliens). You don't give school kids machine guns because they are fighting gang members on the way home.

As to the aid being syphoned off, people are corrupt everywhere where large sums of money are involved. (including both our countries politicians)

>>Remove the reason that I hate you so that I won't want to kill you anymore.
The only way is to educate you, to show you that I am not different. (And more importantly to remove your ability to indoctrinate more people to your cause)

Or I could bomb your country and kill thousands trying to get just YOU. (and then fail) Would that make you stop hating me? Or would it give your cause a legitimacy in the eyes of your nation?

>>I was responding to a statement by novacain that Iraq would be a better place if it had been taken over by the 'commies'.

I did not say that, I said the US supported / supplied Sadam BECAUSE he was anti communist. Why did the US have to give Iraq arms in the first place?


>>If Palestine receives $100's of millions of dollars in aid every month, why isn't that the happiest ****ing place on earth?
Maybe because the US ACTUALLY gives US$250 millon a month to Israel, US$125mill in arms. (and its only US$50millon/month to Palestine)

I don't think it is the US's right or responsibility to be the worlds policeman. I think it would be better if the US stayed out of it.

>>We can't afford to make that mistake again. If military intelligence shows the slightest sign (which it does) of weapons development in Iraq then we should go in and put a stop to it, and remove from power those who are responsible.

Pakistan and India are / have developing weapons of mass destruction, threatening to fight one another (if you don't count Kashmir as already fighting)

There is constant reports of terrorists in northern Pakistan, fundametalists attacking the Indian govt ect.

Why is there no talk of taking out Gen. Musharraf? (who is a military dictator having siezed power in the late '90s)


(PS I apologise to the Indians and Pakistanis if using them as an hypothetical example offends)

I was looking for the FAT " File allocation table. " as I am doing my project now.

but I would like to say something :

"How about people in Iraq.?"
- we have a disscution last week with some Iraq people in my church here in the USA, and there is one guy said this :

" ... I have 2 brothers and 10 friends in Iraq now, they don't want to have a war, and I don't want to have a war. But if there is a war, and they deside not to fight SADDAM will kill them, but if they decide to fight , we -as American will kill them - SO what should they do.?"

Really , I am still thinking about these young guys, who are suffering from SADDAM, and us... what they did to deserve all that?

I don't like war what so ever.?

Even though this is a sensitive issue, please dont bump dead threads. If you want to discuss something new, please open a new discussion