Another reason not to like every whining complaining country on the planet.

**novacain** · 06-12-2002

>>Who is responsible if you were to teach someone how to program and then they decided to use there information not for good but to create a viris that caused your computer to over heat?

That is not the same. Teaching the clans 'commando' tactics and supplying them with stinger missiles ect is not standard help. Then refuse to give normal aid when the war on the USSR was over.

A closer example would be;
If I taught you how to smash a router into a default state to take contol of it, to spoof your IP and to send the required packets so you could perform DDDos attacks. In other words I gave you the skills to attack on the internet, then when you can serve no purpose I abandon you.

Then you use the knowledge against me or others, who is to blame then?

>>Generic hatred is not solved or soothed by adding more layers of hatred

Is it solved with US$6.4bill of bombs?

**Sentaku senshi** · 06-12-2002

>That is not the same. Teaching the clans 'commando' tactics and supplying them with stinger missiles ect is not standard help. Then refuse to give normal aid when the war on the USSR was over.<
Of course we did give aid to IRAN witch led to them over throwing there goverment and holding a group of americans hostage (51 I belive) because we let there old ruler (that was pro-american) come into are country and died. Iran then invaded Iraq. We helped Iraq defeat iran. Sadum decided that since he was no more powerful then his neighbors attacked kuwait. This led to desert storm and troops being stationed in Sadia Aribia witch is why Bin Laden Hates us.

So basicly no matter what choice we make were wrong.

>A closer example would be;
If I taught you how to smash a router into a default state to take contol of it, to spoof your IP and to send the required packets so you could perform DDDos attacks. In other words I gave you the skills to attack on the internet, then when you can serve no purpose I abandon you.<

and I can choose how to use the skills.

>Then you use the knowledge against me or others, who is to blame then? <
Myself as I am ultimately responsible for my own actions.

**Mario** · 06-12-2002

Originally posted by Sentaku senshi
Myself as I am ultimately responsible for my own actions.

I see... then why attack Iraq? Why talking about an evil axis?

You people are funny...

**Govtcheez** · 06-12-2002

> You don't think 50,000 families in BC losing their jobs to American protectionism is a "real problem"?

You don't think 50,000 families in the US losing their jobs to Mexico is a "real problem"? Let's all hate the Mexicans!

> You don't see the US "tolerating and understanding" anything that threatens US interests of whatever nature, "security" is the latest, but substitute "business", "wealth", "standard of living" or any of a dozen other things.

What the US gov't does and the US people do/want are two totally different things. Don't make this a personal fight, guys.

**[EMOBA]** · 06-12-2002

There really isn't one person here who knows the truth (I'm not claiming that i do either)...you're only know what your media tells you, and it's extremely easy to sell newspapers to angry people wanting to justify their anger.

I really wish the US would isolate itself, but it seems every time we try we get blasted for that too. I'm tired of being cursed because i'm from the US. The world needs our crutch, our economy, yet it doesn't like the way that we keep our economy sound. What would happen to Canda if the oil industry in the US compelety collapsed? What if we stopped buying timber completely? What about water and the numerous other resources Canada provides?
What if stopped buying electronics from the East (unlikely, but possible if things get really bad). Everyone witnessed what happened to the world markets after the terrorist attacks. The world economy was uncertain about its future.

How many jobs would you lose then? sorry...

i'm pretty sure that if the situation was reversed, your countries would be doing the same, protecting it's own economic interests; however they're not in a position to do so effectively. I mean, yes, you can close your ports and you can impose tarriffs, but more than likely there's someone else who is going to fill the hole in the market. Everyone, no matter where they are from, wants a piece of the American dollar, and like it or not your standards of living are dependent on it in many ways...again, i'm sorry, but it seems that's the way it is.

Things change too, remember. Maybe if the US economy collapses, you people can move on with your lives and leave us alone...

**Mario** · 06-12-2002

Originally posted by [EMOBA]
What would happen to Canda if the oil industry in the US compelety collapsed? What if we stopped buying timber completely? What about water and the numerous other resources Canada provides?
What if stopped buying electronics from the East (unlikely, but possible if things get really bad). Everyone witnessed what happened to the world markets after the terrorist attacks. The world economy was uncertain about its future.

If you study economics you'll quickly learn that in fact that's where US is definitly not the center of the world. US shares through brute force its space with world markets. So it's not uncommon to hear comparisons between say the European market and the US market, or the Asian market and the US market. But each one of these markets has the potential to disrupt the world market and consequently the American market. Don't be fooled to think US alone dictates the rules... cause it doesn't.

What would happen to Canada if US stopped buying timber from them? To answer that I would say not as bad as what would happen to US if the Canadian economy collapsed. You see... in economy, although there are strong and weak, the fact is that what makes a strong healthy country is its links to others, not really what they produce... take as an example a country like Angola (which is one, if not the most, rich country in the world in natural resources).

The fact that "world economy was uncertain about its future" as you said... that's newspaper hype. The world always knows where its heading. In fact way before last september the world economy was already facing a crisis... the attacks just gave it a boost. A couple of months (if my memory serves me right) after september a plane crashed against the pirelli building in Italy... immediatly the world markets resented that. As you see... There's not a "US center of the world" type of thing.

To end this and directly replying to what you asked "What if we stopped buying timber completely [from canada]". Canada would sell to someone else and meanwhile US would face a timber crisis which would surely reflect on other internal markets producing a chain reaction and eventually leading to an economical breakdown. Such is how economy works... next time think about your comparisons.

**Mario** · 06-12-2002

Originally posted by [EMOBA]
Everyone, no matter where they are from, wants a piece of the American dollar, and like it or not your standards of living are dependent on it in many ways...again, i'm sorry, but it seems that's the way it is.

Again study a bit of economy... The statement above is ludicrous. For an economy to strive it is imperative that you transform foreign money into national money (usually by means of foreign investment)... so, for US to strive and make everyone "Want the American Dollar" is important for US to also want the European Euro, the English Pound, even the poor Angola Kwanza (had to look this one up)...

As you can see, again it's give and take... Now, next time you start feeling "i'm the center of the world", go to Wall Street and look around. It will humble you down to earth again.

**mike_k** · 06-12-2002

"What would happen to Canda if the oil industry in the US compelety collapsed? What if we stopped buying timber completely? What about water and the numerous other resources Canada provides? "

Well for one, then maybe Canadian companies would actually invest in Canada to create more Canadian jobs etc. instead of the 80% of our profits that go to Americans.

Unregistered · 06-12-2002

>>If you study economics you'll quickly learn that in fact that's where US is definitly not the center of the world. <<

i never said that it was the center of the world. I said the world uses our economy as a crutch. I meant that we are the largest consumer on the planet, and our consumer dollars support a large part of many economies including Canada's, Asia's, etc..

>>To end this and directly replying to what you asked "What if we stopped buying timber completely [from canada]". Canada would sell to someone else and meanwhile US would face a timber crisis which would surely reflect on other internal markets producing a chain reaction and eventually leading to an economical breakdown. Such is how economy works... next time think about your comparisons. <<

you're argument doesn't really make sense to me. I REALLY like how you tie the lack of Candian timber to a total US meltdown. That's rich. You know the US has loads of timber, right? In fact it's not really going anywhere because it's too expensive harvest here with Canadian timber on the market. Also, If Canda can sell to someone else, why can't we buy from someone else?

Anyway, i think that $10 billion dollars a year is a significant contribution to the Canadian economy, and it wouldn't be that easy to replace. The Timber industry in Canada depends on the US. Why do you think they're fighting the tariffs? They want our money. Why can't you admit that?

>>Again study a bit of economy... The statement above is ludicrous. For an economy to strive it is imperative that you transform foreign money into national money (usually by means of foreign investment)... so, for US to strive and make everyone "Want the American Dollar" is important for US to also want the European Euro, the English Pound, even the poor Angola Kwanza (had to look this one up)...<<

"Want the American Dollar" means to sell exported goods to the Americans. To take our money in a purchase. America exports very little to the rest of the world. Our economy thrives, yet much of our money flows out to the rest of the world, and less money (from buying American exports)flows in from other countries. My statements are restricted to the "America as the world's consumer" argument. Why don't you clarify your point? Maybe i'm missing it. it's not very clear.

I don't really know why you're so angry, but it's obvious you are. you're imposing your sterotypes about americans on me. I don't thing that the American economy is the "center of the world" nor do i wish it to be. I also know that the US economy is dependent on the health of other world markets. I didn't claim the contrary. While I'm no expert (you're not either, obviously), I understand the world economy is much more complicated than the rest of the world "sucking on the US' tits". That wasn't the point of my post, though you sure do want to make it so.

I say in my original post that things change, and i realize that the US as a world economic power is a relatively new thing, and it can and will change at anytime. When it does, i'm certain the world will move on. Nevertheless, in the present day, many countries including Canada depend on the US's purchasing power. The US is the the number one "purchaser" on the planet, and its absense would impact those countries who sell to it. That's all...

maybe next time you should take a deep breath and calm down before you reply.

**Mario** · 06-12-2002

Originally posted by Unregistered
I don't really know why you're so angry, but it's obvious you are. you're imposing your sterotypes about americans on me. I don't thing that the American economy is the "center of the world" nor do i wish it to be. I also know that the US economy is dependent on the health of other world markets. I didn't claim the contrary. While I'm no expert (you're not either, obviously), I understand the world economy is much more complicated than the rest of the world "sucking on the US' tits". That wasn't the point of my post, though you sure do want to make it so.
[...]
maybe next time you should take a deep breath and calm down before you reply.

Me angry?

Hehe... I don't get angry ever since my wife left me waiting 2 hours for her at a male gay party she insisted it would help me better understand the gay community. Trust me, all world problems got dim in comparison ever since.

Anyway... glad you asked. Just read your original post and come back to me again. Until you realize what you wrote was a stereotype, you will have little comprehension of why I choose to reply the manner I did...

As for my knowledge of economics and world economy... I have a degree. Sorry.

**[EMOBA]** · 06-12-2002

>>Anyway... glad you asked. Just read your original post and come back to me again. Until you realize what you wrote was a stereotype, you will have little comprehension of why I choose to reply the manner I did... <<

i'm sorry i don't see it. If you can calmly explain you point to me , i would listen.

>>As for my knowledge of economics and world economy... I have a degree. Sorry.<<

No, i'm sorry. that was a low blow.

**Scourfish** · 06-12-2002

And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears that your elders grew by,
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.

Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

-CS&N

**adrianxw** · 06-12-2002

GovtCheez:

>>>
What the US gov't does and the US people do/want are two totally different things. Don't make this a personal fight, guys.
<<<

That's technically true of almost all nations, however, the US government is the, (cough splutter!), democratically elected voice of the people, (it tells me so).

There are two seperate issues here, if the government, (any, not just the US gov/citizen), is doing things that you don't agree with, then by not acting against the government, are you not - basically agreeing?

Secondly, and this is far more applicable to the US then many other countries, since the media does not report anything that happens, (or at least very very little), outside of the US, are US citizens just happily believing the governments propganda that everything is fine apart from a few bad apples in a few rogue states?

Julian Barnes once observed that any foreigner visiting the US can perform an easy magic trick, "Buy a newspaper and see your own country disappear".

**mike_k** · 06-12-2002

"You know the US has loads of timber, right? In fact it's not really going anywhere because it's too expensive harvest here with Canadian timber on the market"

Actually, the carpenters in Washington are lobbying to lift the illegal softwood lumber tarriff because the american lumber industry cannot meet the demand of the marketplace by itsself.

**[EMOBA]** · 06-12-2002

>>Actually, the carpenters in Washington are lobbying to lift the illegal softwood lumber tarriff because the american lumber industry cannot meet the demand of the marketplace by itsself.<<

That's not because there's no timber. There's just not enough of the American timber industry left to meet demand. The wood is there, but a lot of the saw mills are shut down. Last year alone, we lost 10,000 timber jobs and closed 100 saw mills because of cheaper Canadian imports.

edit:// i agree the tariff is illegal under NAFTA. i wasn't saying that it should be in place.